Well this is interesting

The number is way lower than it should be, but this and the rooney rule are dumb

There are better ways to do this
 
So it's allowed to say that white people aren't selected (e.g., for cornerback) because they're less able and less talented. But apply that reasoning to minorities (e.g., for coaching positions) and that's "racist." Hm. Sounds like a double standard. Some people are just in love with pretending to be victims.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
So it's allowed to say that white people aren't selected (e.g., for cornerback) because they're less able and less talented. But apply that reasoning to minorities (e.g., for coaching positions) and that's "racist." Hm. Sounds like a double standard. Some people are just in love with pretending to be victims.
Click to expand...

Suffice to say that there is no “white corners left behind” problem in professional football.
 
I think when attempting to solve a complicated problem, you need to come up with out of the box methods. Don’t know if this is the best way but I think it’s a stale take to get extremely irritated by it and pretend that this is a non-issue in the NFL.
 
raems said:
I think when attempting to solve a complicated problem, you need to come up with out of the box methods. Don’t know if this is the best way but I think it’s a stale take to get extremely irritated by it and pretend that this is a non-issue in the NFL.
Click to expand...

Why is it an issue though? Do we honestly think NFL owners are purposely hiring inferior coaches and GMs simply because they’re white? So they’re all racists even though 70% of the players are minorities? Is that fact also a problem or nah, because “get whitey?”

I’m just asking those questions in general too, they aren’t directed towards you in any significant way.
 
jedi ninja said:
Why is it an issue though? Do we honestly think NFL owners are purposely hiring inferior coaches and GMs simply because they’re white? So they’re all racists even though 70% of the players are minorities? Is that fact also a problem or nah, because “get whitey?”
Click to expand...

Unconscious bias is a thing. It’s not overt, planned, sinister racism, but it’s benefit of doubt and deeply ingrained inclinations that linger in hiring practices across a variety of industries where the interviewers and people hiring have a shared background. People don’t even know explicitly about their unconscious biases - that’s a large part of the reason why guys like Adam Gase get 5 seasons as a head coach before guys like Eric Bienemy get a second round interview.
 
raems said:
Unconscious bias is a thing. It’s not overt, planned, sinister racism, but it’s benefit of doubt and deeply ingrained inclinations that linger in hiring practices across a variety of industries where the interviewers and people hiring have a shared background. People don’t even know explicitly about their unconscious biases - that’s a large part of the reason why guys like Adam Gase get 5 seasons as a head coach before guys like Eric Bienemy get a second round interview.
Click to expand...

But trying to get rid of unconscious bias is such a horrible idea it isn’t even worth discussing. It’s UNCONSCIOUS, that word has a definition.

Also, I’ll see your Adam Gase and raise you 15 or so years of Marvin Lewis.
 
jedi ninja said:
But trying to get rid of unconscious bias is such a horrible idea it isn’t even worth discussing. It’s UNCONSCIOUS, that word has a definition.
Click to expand...

Thats like saying self-improvement is pointless. It is possible to become conscious of one's ingrained biases and make efforts to eliminate them. Hell, as a capper, its something I try to do constantly.

I like that the NFL is trying to address the disparity but I agree that this 'hire a minority, get a prize' idea is not the way to do it. This is an issue that will not be solved overnight and will probably require years of messaging and education to change organically. Its a laudable goal but a long term one in my mind.
 
Hulu said:
Thats like saying self-improvement is pointless. It is possible to become conscious of one's ingrained biases and make efforts to eliminate them. Hell, as a capper, its something I try to do constantly.

I like that the NFL is trying to address the disparity but I agree that this 'hire a minority, get a prize' idea is not the way to do it. This is an issue that will not be solved overnight and will probably require years of messaging and education to change organically. Its a laudable goal but a long term one in my mind.
Click to expand...

So regulating not only people’s actions but also now their thoughts? Yeah, no thanks.
 
What exactly needs to be improved? If it's satisfying some arbitrary quota (e.g., 50% of coaches should be a minority) then that may seem like progress to some, but if most minorities aren't getting a coaching position by earning it, then it doesn't seem to me at least like any progress is achieved. It seems like a cheap facade of progress, one that is illustrated in a statistics chart, but bought at the expense of dignity and self-respect. By suggesting that minorities need to be handed a position in order to land it, such a notion of progress is also self-undermining because it substantiates a reason that many people propose for the racial disparity in coaches...which is that fewer minorities earn a coaching position.

Now you can claim that more minorities are deserving of coaching positions and that they are the victim of an unconscious bias (racism). But i'm not sure you can be aware of something unconscious (like a bias)....awareness of an unconscious bias sounds oxymoronic (aware and conscious of are synonyms). You can try to use empirical data to indicate a bias. And that's a strategy that many people who are for this pursue. But I don't see how it's possible to do that without committing a double standard because white guys are also statistical "victims" in some contexts...why can't I say: ok, we grant you your minority coaches. Now, given the racial disparity at the position, let some white guys be running back. Recruiters, coaches, etc., all just assume that a white guy won't make a good running back and they never give him a fair chance when evaluating talent. White guys...they're only good for holding clipboards! Without any empirical data, it seems like throwing darts, inventing narratives, making stuff up, to point to an unconscious bias.

Even if there is implicit bias in some coaches, so what? Let the more qualified coach go to a franchise whose owner isn't bigoted. He'll help them do better than the bigoted owner's franchise. But it seems odd to assume that racist biases predominate the (unconscious) thinking of white hirers...why would racists be interested in a league that is so heavily dominated by minority players? And if racist biases exist, to think that they're one-sided (i.e. only disfavoring minorities) also sounds absurd and baseless (e.g., given the empirical data). Plus, owners are there to make money and they want to win...so there's every incentive in place to hire for quality (regardless of whether it's black or white) (and to get rid of anybody who hires for race or something else besides quality) so there's plenty of reason to assume that things are fine and fair as they are.
 
jedi ninja said:
You didn’t, I know. But the prospect of changing someone’s unconscious biases is regulating their thoughts. Quite literally.
Click to expand...

No its not. Just like there is a big difference between unconscious bias and overt racism, there is a huge gulf between helping people to see their own biases to effect change and outright regulation of thought. The former is laudable, the latter would be fascist.

At any rate, I think we can at least agree that this plan is not something the NFL should pursue and I'm certain that after reading this thread, the NFL owners will too and vote it down. :)
 
Hulu said:
No its not. Just like there is a big difference between unconscious bias and overt racism, there is a huge gulf between helping people to see their own biases to effect change and outright regulation of thought. The former is laudable, the latter would be fascist.

At any rate, I think we can at least agree that this plan is not something the NFL should pursue and I'm certain that after reading this thread, the NFL owners will too and vote it down. :)
Click to expand...

We can agree on that for sure.

But how exactly, is telling people they need to go against their unconscious biases not controlling their thoughts? They are telling them how to think, because the way they’re doing it unconsciously isn’t good enough for them. To what extent may be arguable, but the mere enacting of any of it is literally thought control.
 
I agree with jedi because bias is normatively loaded and you reinforce that by the way you phrase it (help to see). It's as if people are making a mistake in how they think and if they're making a mistake, then there must be a truth of the matter (something that is unmistaken). And that's where regulating comes in...you're telling them that a way of thinking is truly better and you're pushing them to those other thoughts.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
I agree with jedi because bias is normatively loaded and you reinforce that by the way you phrase it (help to see). It's as if people are making a mistake in how they think and if they're making a mistake, then there must be a truth of the matter (something that is unmistaken). And that's where regulating comes in...you're telling them that a way of thinking is truly better and you're pushing them to those other thoughts.
Click to expand...

Right. Further, pointing it out is one thing, and wouldn’t necessarily be regulating thought. But giving someone an ultimatum (or a reward, whatever) and making them not only realize it but change their way of thinking is the definition of regulating thought.
 
jedi ninja said:
But trying to get rid of unconscious bias is such a horrible idea it isn’t even worth discussing. It’s UNCONSCIOUS, that word has a definition.

Also, I’ll see your Adam Gase and raise you 15 or so years of Marvin Lewis.
Click to expand...

When Marvin Lewis became the Bengals head coach, the franchise hadn’t had a winning season in 14 years and was coming off a 2 win season. He finished his 16 year stint with a winning record overall, 7 playoff appearances and 5 division titles. Thinking his performance wasn’t at least very solid is a good example of unconscious bias and how it’s applied towards African American head coaches in the nfl.
 
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jedi ninja said:
Right. Further, pointing it out is one thing, and wouldn’t necessarily be regulating thought. But giving someone an ultimatum (or a reward, whatever) and making them not only realize it but change their way of thinking is the definition of regulating thought.
Click to expand...

To reiterate, I’m not agreeing with this new rule. I think it’s janky at best. But to say there isn’t a problem worth addressing, I do not agree with.
 
The easiest way to address this is to try and root out nepotism in the hiring process of assistant coaches imo. That could be a more direct way of leveling the playing field.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
What exactly needs to be improved? If it's satisfying some arbitrary quota (e.g., 50% of coaches should be a minority) then that may seem like progress to some, but if most minorities aren't getting a coaching position by earning it, then it doesn't seem to me at least like any progress is achieved. It seems like a cheap facade of progress, one that is illustrated in a statistics chart, but bought at the expense of dignity and self-respect. By suggesting that minorities need to be handed a position in order to land it, such a notion of progress is also self-undermining because it substantiates a reason that many people propose for the racial disparity in coaches...which is that fewer minorities earn a coaching position.

Now you can claim that more minorities are deserving of coaching positions and that they are the victim of an unconscious bias (racism). But i'm not sure you can be aware of something unconscious (like a bias)....awareness of an unconscious bias sounds oxymoronic (aware and conscious of are synonyms). You can try to use empirical data to indicate a bias. And that's a strategy that many people who are for this pursue. But I don't see how it's possible to do that without committing a double standard because white guys are also statistical "victims" in some contexts...why can't I say: ok, we grant you your minority coaches. Now, given the racial disparity at the position, let some white guys be running back. Recruiters, coaches, etc., all just assume that a white guy won't make a good running back and they never give him a fair chance when evaluating talent. White guys...they're only good for holding clipboards! Without any empirical data, it seems like throwing darts, inventing narratives, making stuff up, to point to an unconscious bias.

Even if there is implicit bias in some coaches, so what? Let the more qualified coach go to a franchise whose owner isn't bigoted. He'll help them do better than the bigoted owner's franchise. But it seems odd to assume that racist biases predominate the (unconscious) thinking of white hirers...why would racists be interested in a league that is so heavily dominated by minority players? And if racist biases exist, to think that they're one-sided (i.e. only disfavoring minorities) also sounds absurd and baseless (e.g., given the empirical data). Plus, owners are there to make money and they want to win...so there's every incentive in place to hire for quality (regardless of whether it's black or white) (and to get rid of anybody who hires for race or something else besides quality) so there's plenty of reason to assume that things are fine and fair as they are.
Click to expand...

The problem is that black coaches are earning it and not getting it because of the color of their skin.

Football players have the benefit of a steadier meritocracy than coaches because their performance is rooted in statistics and empirical measurements like combine performance. if you can play you can play, they’ll find you at a small school in the damn middle of nowhere playing D3 if you’ve got it you’ve got it. Assistant coaches don’t have a won/loss record or a tangible statistic that they can holistically attribute to their own performance the way football players do.

Also the beginning of your last paragraph basically opens with “so what if a majority of hirers are biased.” That is literally the issue at hand. If you knew when you applied for 10 identical jobs that a meaningful portion of hirers are biased against you, your stance would not be “so what that they don’t want to hire me.” That’s a succinct snapshot of white privilege. Black coaches have to fight harder and longer to get and keep head coaching jobs and it’s wrong.
 
raems said:
When Marvin Lewis became the Bengals head coach, the franchise hadn’t had a winning season in 14 years and was coming off a 2 win season. He finished his 16 year stint with a winning record overall, 7 playoff appearances and 5 division titles. Thinking his performance wasn’t at least very solid is a good example of unconscious bias and how it’s applied towards African American head coaches in the nfl.
Click to expand...

Now do Hue Jackson. Then do Steve Wilks. Todd Bowles?

I also didn’t say Lewis was a horrible coach. But he got quite long leash his last 3 seasons and was 0-7 in the playoffs if I’m not mistaken.

No one is saying black head coaches can’t be successful in the NFL. But when you start mandating they be hired, and even incentivizing it, you get Todd Bowles and Steve Wilks.
 
Anyone remember that MNF game that pitted Anthony Lynn vs Vance Joseph?

But....

Lovie Smith vs Tony Dungy in the Super Bowl...
 
jedi ninja said:
Why is it an issue though? Do we honestly think NFL owners are purposely hiring inferior coaches and GMs simply because they’re white? So they’re all racists even though 70% of the players are minorities? Is that fact also a problem or nah, because “get whitey?”

I’m just asking those questions in general too, they aren’t directed towards you in any significant way.
Click to expand...
I think it's more about chances to get in the ' boys club'

Which is why this is dumb

Football coaches fill out their staffs with their friends and guys they know or cosched with under the same tree, in the past it was all a bunch of white guys, no one can argue that

Giving a present for hiring a minority doesnt work, they should do more programs for nfl and ncaa minority candidates that helps them get in the door, offer more internships for college players who want to get into coaching or scouting

It has to be a ground up thing, not a top down reward
 
guaranteeed said:
I think it's more about chances to get in the ' boys club'

Which is why this is dumb

Football coaches fill out their staffs with their friends and guys they know or cosched with under the same tree, in the past it was all a bunch of white guys, no one can argue that

Giving a present for hiring a minority doesnt work, they should do more programs for nfl and ncaa minority candidates that helps them get in the door, offer more internships for college players who want to get into coaching or scouting

It has to be a ground up thing, not a top down reward
Click to expand...

Can’t argue with this.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
So it's allowed to say that white people aren't selected (e.g., for cornerback) because they're less able and less talented. But apply that reasoning to minorities (e.g., for coaching positions) and that's "racist." Hm. Sounds like a double standard. Some people are just in love with pretending to be victims.
Click to expand...

while I’m not here to bang the drum for the disenfranchised couldn’t it be argued that implying minority candidates are not as intelligent or capable of HC or gm jobs is somewhat different and far more subjective than how fast a 40x various white corners run?

regardless the rule is stupid. I would think a qualified intelligent minority would find it offensive that they only got hired to gain draft equity!
 
guaranteeed said:
I think it's more about chances to get in the ' boys club'

Which is why this is dumb

Football coaches fill out their staffs with their friends and guys they know or cosched with under the same tree, in the past it was all a bunch of white guys, no one can argue that

Giving a present for hiring a minority doesnt work, they should do more programs for nfl and ncaa minority candidates that helps them get in the door, offer more internships for college players who want to get into coaching or scouting

It has to be a ground up thing, not a top down reward
Click to expand...

Solid post.
 
jedi ninja said:
Now do Hue Jackson. Then do Steve Wilks. Todd Bowles?

I also didn’t say Lewis was a horrible coach. But he got quite long leash his last 3 seasons and was 0-7 in the playoffs if I’m not mistaken.

No one is saying black head coaches can’t be successful in the NFL. But when you start mandating they be hired, and even incentivizing it, you get Todd Bowles and Steve Wilks.
Click to expand...

Bowles one of the best defensive cord in the league imo. Sure he didn’t do so well as a HC but certainly think he had the credentials to get a chance. Far more so than that last moron the browns let play head coach for a year! I’m certainly not saying owners purposefully not giving out fair chances but there no chance in hell there aren’t 20 minorities and a few woman who were more qualified than kitchens! Lol.

Considering how awful the bungals organization is I’d argue Lewis did a incredible job having them in the playoffs quite a few times. By time this kid they got now and Burrow careers done They will look back on Lewis stretch of playoff losses and think of them fondly as the glory years! (Well for the kids too young to remember Boomer!).

one the problems is there far more good minority defensive coaches imo and now days everyone looking for the next breakout offensive mind.
 
2daBank said:
while I’m not here to bang the drum for the disenfranchised couldn’t it be argued that implying minority candidates are not as intelligent or capable of HC or gm jobs is somewhat different and far more subjective than how fast a 40x various white corners run?

regardless the rule is stupid. I would think a qualified intelligent minority would find it offensive that they only got hired to gain draft equity!
Click to expand...

Well, this was (hilariously, I find) called racist. But I pointed out before that white football players graduate college at a significantly higher rate than minorities. So that’s one way in which you can substantiate intellectual merit. I also wonder if the tendency for white people to play quarterback (and center and middle linebacker) is related. Doesn‘t it require a higher IQ to play QB (and those other positions). Aren‘t QB coaches more likely to be promoted? Seems like a lot of head coaches played quarterback in their day. So the whole „but so many players are black“ point is kind of irrelevant. It‘s more important that not so many black guys play quarterback.
 
Whitey gonna Whitey. He's been doing it forever and fhey will be having this same diacussion decades after we are no longer here.

Gradually we will get better by admitting our Privelege, legislating quotas or affirmative action not only into our laws but corporate manuals. Elimination of hate speech is crucial as well.

As with most problems, admitting there is a problem is the first step.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
Well, this was (hilariously, I find) called racist. But I pointed out before that white football players graduate college at a significantly higher rate than minorities. So that’s one way in which you can substantiate intellectual merit. I also wonder if the tendency for white people to play quarterback (and center and middle linebacker) is related. Doesn‘t it require a higher IQ to play QB (and those other positions). Aren‘t QB coaches more likely to be promoted? Seems like a lot of head coaches played quarterback in their day. So the whole „but so many players are black“ point is kind of irrelevant. It‘s more important that not so many black guys play quarterback.
Click to expand...

I find most things called racist are hilarious when it comes to having a discussion, Or really anytime. I say shit all the time that I’m sure someone who didn’t know me would take as racist, lol. Imo it just like cursing/foul language it all about context and intent. Unfortunately we live in a pussyfied time where all these cream puffs think everyone should talk and think in a way they find agreeable.

prob some truth to what you sayin as it pertains to players positions and more importantly whether they coach offense or defense since everyone wants offensive coaches these days even tho the greatest coach of all time A defensive guy who still coaching! Lol.

Far as amount of players who graduate from each race, doesn’t the fact more black players are able to leave early cause they gettin drafted have at least as much to do with why more white players graduate than black more so than a question of intelligence? I’d bet most white players that have a high draft projection before senior year leave early and don’t graduate either. obviously that matters tho, the fact far more white players know college is there last stop graduate then start interning or whatever as coaches leading to a bigger pool of qualified white coaches.
 
I’d really recommend you actually read the interview, it’s interesting if you are willing to take in some thoughts that aren’t completely aligned with yours. Surely a career coach and son of an NFL head coach might have some valuable insight if not by pure happenstance.
 
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raems said:
I’d really recommend you actually read the interview, it’s interesting if you are willing to take in some thoughts that aren’t completely aligned with yours. Surely a career coach and son of an NFL head coach might have some valuable insight if not by pure happenstance.
Click to expand...

Of course he would. That doesn’t change my question one bit. Also, in today’s climate, him saying what he’s saying isn’t exactly surprising. What did anyone else expect him to say? I think he likes his job.

Has nothing to do with my beliefs/thoughts/feelings...has everything to do with facts. Those same facts/stats/analytics someone like Shanny likes to claim he loves so much.

Also, if my math is correct...why does Shanny only have 8 black coches out of 22?
 
jedi ninja said:
Of course he would. That doesn’t change my question one bit. Also, in today’s climate, him saying what he’s saying isn’t exactly surprising. What did anyone else expect him to say? I think he likes his job.

Has nothing to do with my beliefs/thoughts/feelings...has everything to do with facts. Those same facts/stats/analytics someone like Shanny likes to claim he loves so much.
Click to expand...

your question is a deflection and doesn’t have much to do with the topic at hand. I’ve always found that when I want to learn more about something, it helps to read and listen to people with meaningful experiences in that arena.

what KS said is surprising because of the level of depth and empathy in his responses - if you did read it, I’d venture to guess you noticed that what he says here doesn’t come off as a corporate cover your ass type of answer many others are giving. That’s specifically why I posted it, because it’s worth the read.
 
raems said:
your question is a deflection and doesn’t have much to do with the topic at hand. I’ve always found that when I want to learn more about something, it helps to read and listen to people with meaningful experiences in that arena.

what KS said is surprising because of the level of depth and empathy in his responses - if you did read it, I’d venture to guess you noticed that what he says here doesn’t come off as a corporate cover your ass type of answer many others are giving. That’s specifically why I posted it, because it’s worth the read.
Click to expand...

How is it a deflection? There’s a reason there aren’t more black NFL head coaches, just like there’s a reason there aren’t more white NFL players. Do we honestly think teams are more concerned with not hiring a black guy as their head coach then winning a title? Lolololololol.

Also, any idea why only 8 of his 22 coaches are black?
 
I honestly don’t want to argue with you man, please just try and make an honest effort at reading the interview from start to finish. He makes some really interesting points, it’s more interesting than anything you and I can joust over. He makes some points a lot better than I can.
 
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