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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I won't give the defense an out.
I won't give the defense more at bats from Billy Hamilton than Joey Votto.
I won't give the defense an out.
I won't give the defense more at bats from Billy Hamilton than Joey Votto.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Skewed.
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Lareux
Guest
You won't give them an out in a 1-1 game, bottom of the ninth after a leadoff walk to move the guy into scoring position? Really?
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Lareux
Guest
Ahhh. Show what you're using that isn't skewed then and we can go from there.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I didn't say that. I will play for one run if that's all I need to win the game.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Because all that bullshit is bullshit. We have roughly a century of Kenny Lofton hitting first, Adam Jones hitting third, Big Mac hitting fourth. You got nothing saying my way doesn't work, just baseball habit. I want guys on base. Period.
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Lareux
Guest
Even using this logic proves that hitting your best hitter leadoff isn't the best thing to do (or, I'd imagine after 100+ years, someone would have done it by now, with great success, and other teams adopted that philosophy). Unless you can show lots of proof that teams put their best hitter leadoff, you have nothing to stand on.
Whether we use that logic, or the new analytics, hitting your best hitter first is never the answer. The debate is whether or not that guy should hit 2nd or 3rd...outside of you, in this thread, I've never even heard anyone else say that guy should be hitting leadoff. And, again, there are certainly cases where it's happened...Ichiro, Rickey Henderson...but those guys were the prototypical leadoff hitters who just happened to also be the best hitter.
I would possibly bat Trout leadoff, because he's got all of the tools, but after reading a little bit and seeing some numbers about how it would cost the Angels many opportunities with guys on base and Trout at bat, I'd probably just keep him in the 2 hole.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I'm used to fighting city hall on these points. You underestimate the compound interest of pressure on the defense and playing with a lead.
On my version of the Tribe, Kipnis leads off, Cody Allen routinely enters tie games in the 7th with RISP.
On my version of the Tribe, Kipnis leads off, Cody Allen routinely enters tie games in the 7th with RISP.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
If only there were one tactic completely under my control to maximize the number of plate appearances for my best hitter ...
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
Unlike one particular person, I'm surprised you missed reading either the 3rd word of that post - usually - or my final sentence of that post...
If a team's best hitter isn't a real HR threat, then I can certainly see having him in front of whoever is the best HR threat (therefore batting 1st/2nd).
Having now pointed out both to you, my question back to you is this: how can I be accused of entertaining the unalloyed opinion that THE BEST HITTERS ARE POWER HITTERS by someone who thoroughly comprehended what I initially wrote?
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Gyno
Guest
Where should cutch bat in pitt?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I'm a hair more hesitant in my stance in the NL. But my answer is lead off.
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dudleysdad
Guest
I didnt miss the usually post
Cuz I dont think the teams best hitters usually are power hitters
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dudleysdad
Guest
1 or 2
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Whoever I deem my most dangerous, most capable hitter, that's my lead off hitter, unless he's laughably slow of foot.
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dudleysdad
Guest
Been retired. That was my last season.
U may argue this concept for the big leagues lol but there is no argument for not hitting ur best guys up top in beer league softball
[h=1]The Optimized Batting Order[/h]With the huge amounts of statistics now being captured in baseball, a lot of research has been done on batting orders, figuring out the best use of the players on the team, resulting in the maximum number of runs.
Two of the leading books that focus on that optimization are Moneyball by Michael Lewis, and The Book by Tom Tango.
Here's the result:
The leadoff batter is the player who gets on base more than any other batter, period. Size, speed, weight... these are not the determining factor, only On-Base Percentage (OBP). It's not to say that speed doesn't help, being fast certainly does a batter get on base more often. But regardless of a player's physical attributes, the primary criteria for the leadoff batter is to get on base more than anyone else on the team.
The second batter is probably going to be the best overall hitter on the team, the leader in On-Base Plus Slugging (OPS). Traditional thinking usually puts the best batter in the fourth position (the cleanup hitter). The downfall of the best hitter batting cleanup is that they might not get as many at bats as the first three hitters on the team. If you could, you'd have your best hitter bat as often as possible. Batting second gives them that opportunity while still balancing it with your best odds of having runners on base when they get up to the plate.
The third batter is assigned after your fourth and fifth batting positions - this is your next best leadoff hitter. In other words, the player with the next best On-Base Percentage (OBP), after batting positions 1, 2, 4, and 5 have been filled. The goal is to keep the inning going and make sure there are runners on base before our cleanup hitter steps up to the plate.
The fourth batter (cleanup hitter) is a power batting position. Ideally we have runners on base and an opportunity for a big inning. After the first two positions in the batting order are filled, the cleanup hitter is the batter with the next highest Slugging Percentage (SLG) and will likely be the second best hitter on the team overall. This is the only time we'll look at Slugging all by itself, and that's because it's a very specific role: drive home as many runners as possible. Note that contrary to traditional thinking, the cleanup hitter might not be your most powerful hitter overall (that might be your best hitter who's batting second), but they are still a great candidate to bat in this position.
The fifth batter is another key position, due to the likelihood of there being runners on base when they step up to the plate. This role will be assigned by next best On-Base Plus Slugging (OPS), after positions 1, 2, and 4 have been filled. They are likely the fourth best batter on the team.
The sixth batter and beyond are a straight top-to-bottom ranking of On-Base Plus Slugging (OPS). Once we've optimized our first five positions, the best we can do is keep a rally going for as long as possible by always bringing to the plate our next best batter, in order.
Does it work?
Yes. On average, professional teams have seen an increase in runs scored by 3-5%. Amateur, rec, and youth baseball teams can see an increase by as much as 20% to their run production, because the difference in skills for the players on the team will be pretty drastic from the top of the order through to the bottom.
Good luck, have fun, and score more runs!
Two of the leading books that focus on that optimization are Moneyball by Michael Lewis, and The Book by Tom Tango.
Here's the result:
The leadoff batter is the player who gets on base more than any other batter, period. Size, speed, weight... these are not the determining factor, only On-Base Percentage (OBP). It's not to say that speed doesn't help, being fast certainly does a batter get on base more often. But regardless of a player's physical attributes, the primary criteria for the leadoff batter is to get on base more than anyone else on the team.
The second batter is probably going to be the best overall hitter on the team, the leader in On-Base Plus Slugging (OPS). Traditional thinking usually puts the best batter in the fourth position (the cleanup hitter). The downfall of the best hitter batting cleanup is that they might not get as many at bats as the first three hitters on the team. If you could, you'd have your best hitter bat as often as possible. Batting second gives them that opportunity while still balancing it with your best odds of having runners on base when they get up to the plate.
The third batter is assigned after your fourth and fifth batting positions - this is your next best leadoff hitter. In other words, the player with the next best On-Base Percentage (OBP), after batting positions 1, 2, 4, and 5 have been filled. The goal is to keep the inning going and make sure there are runners on base before our cleanup hitter steps up to the plate.
The fourth batter (cleanup hitter) is a power batting position. Ideally we have runners on base and an opportunity for a big inning. After the first two positions in the batting order are filled, the cleanup hitter is the batter with the next highest Slugging Percentage (SLG) and will likely be the second best hitter on the team overall. This is the only time we'll look at Slugging all by itself, and that's because it's a very specific role: drive home as many runners as possible. Note that contrary to traditional thinking, the cleanup hitter might not be your most powerful hitter overall (that might be your best hitter who's batting second), but they are still a great candidate to bat in this position.
The fifth batter is another key position, due to the likelihood of there being runners on base when they step up to the plate. This role will be assigned by next best On-Base Plus Slugging (OPS), after positions 1, 2, and 4 have been filled. They are likely the fourth best batter on the team.
The sixth batter and beyond are a straight top-to-bottom ranking of On-Base Plus Slugging (OPS). Once we've optimized our first five positions, the best we can do is keep a rally going for as long as possible by always bringing to the plate our next best batter, in order.
Does it work?
Yes. On average, professional teams have seen an increase in runs scored by 3-5%. Amateur, rec, and youth baseball teams can see an increase by as much as 20% to their run production, because the difference in skills for the players on the team will be pretty drastic from the top of the order through to the bottom.
Good luck, have fun, and score more runs!
Agree...unless there is a HR limit. I've played in leagues before where anything after the third HR was considered an out.
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Gyno
Guest
I think Cutch is a perfect #2 batter. He should bat 2nd. Also think Trout should bat 2nd and Pujols 3rd. Maybe 40 more ABs between them should get at least a few more runs and could translate into a few more wins.
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Gyno
Guest
Goldschmidt and Fielder. I want to bat them 2nd but it just looks strange to me. I might keep them at 3rd.
No way would I lead off these guys. tippy would you lead Goldy or Prince off?
No way would I lead off these guys. tippy would you lead Goldy or Prince off?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Goldy yes. Prince, probably not. I don't want to neutralize my speed behind 'em. Speed also pressures the defense, but they can't do it with a fat guy on the base in front of 'em.
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Gyno
Guest
When I used to play video games, I used to change my lineup and have Bonds bat first. Didn't think about all this, just did it on my own. Age 19
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
This year's Indians have provided great examples. Tito lucked into it. Bourne was hitting like .200, Kipnis has led off before, he put Kipnis there. He is not Ichiro, he's simply the best hitter on the team.
Mentioned before how he brought Allen into a game after a rain delay. Wish it would have lit the bulb in his bald head, but you can do that any day of the week.
When you bat a superior hitter behind inferior hitters, you are guessing. You are guessing that a guy gets on base ahead of him. When I bat a superior hitter ahead of an inferior hitter, I am not guessing. I am guaranteeing he will get the most chances to hit. Good thing for a hitter.
When you put the third best reliever in a tie game in the 5th inning, you are hoping. You are hoping you have a tie or a lead later. When I put my best reliever, the guy who misses bats, into a tie game in the 5th, I stand a better chance to live to the 6th. I'll worry about the 6th in the 6th.
Mentioned before how he brought Allen into a game after a rain delay. Wish it would have lit the bulb in his bald head, but you can do that any day of the week.
When you bat a superior hitter behind inferior hitters, you are guessing. You are guessing that a guy gets on base ahead of him. When I bat a superior hitter ahead of an inferior hitter, I am not guessing. I am guaranteeing he will get the most chances to hit. Good thing for a hitter.
When you put the third best reliever in a tie game in the 5th inning, you are hoping. You are hoping you have a tie or a lead later. When I put my best reliever, the guy who misses bats, into a tie game in the 5th, I stand a better chance to live to the 6th. I'll worry about the 6th in the 6th.
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dudleysdad
Guest
Why do u guys keep stating just the lead off spot?
Best hitters in order 1 thru 9
Best hitters in order 1 thru 9
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Generally, yes, and softball, definitely.
In MLB, I might not want six lefties in a row like the Tribe, and I don't want slow before speed.
mrpickem
SDQL Badass Stat Boss
does any team in the majors bat best hitter leadoff?
I rest my case.
#1- Good hitter with high obp who can run/steal
#2-Good hitter who dont strikeout, can sac with good avg and some pop
#3-Best hitter with power
#4-Best power guy that's not best hitter
#5-Next best power guy
6-9 whatevers left
I rest my case.
#1- Good hitter with high obp who can run/steal
#2-Good hitter who dont strikeout, can sac with good avg and some pop
#3-Best hitter with power
#4-Best power guy that's not best hitter
#5-Next best power guy
6-9 whatevers left
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Every team in the majors used to not shift the defense. Every team in the majors used to sacrifice bunt. Every team in the majors used to gauge a pitcher's gas tank by the pitch count. Every team in the majors used to not trust black players. Popularity doesn't equal smart.
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dudleysdad
Guest
Just looked at Indians lineup tonight
Why is lindor in the two hole with a '207 avg
Why is lindor in the two hole with a '207 avg
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Because they're dumb. Brantley should hit 2. Start your righty/lefty stuff from there. In Tito's defense, the Indians line-up looks shitty in any order.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Cleveland bats its best hitter lead off. By pure accident, but still, don't rest your case.
This version of the Yanks does it.
Mookie might be the best hitter on the Sox these days.
Obviously Houston does it.
Your case is more weary than rested.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
You're trying to will the situation. You don't know what either hitter is going to do, but you do know which one you want to have more cracks at the plate. I'm on the fence in the NL. I think pitchers need to grow a sac and hit their weight.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
You're still guessing.
If I'm a manager, I don't want to die the day after Billy Hamilton or a pinch hitter taps out to second in game seven with Votto on deck.
If I'm a manager, I don't want to die the day after Billy Hamilton or a pinch hitter taps out to second in game seven with Votto on deck.
CollegeKingRex
CTG Regular
Barkeep, I mean this as a compliment to your common sense because you don't obviously believe in the math and analytics portion of the game. But it's amazing that you can have such forward analytical thinking in regards to not giving away outs via sac bunts and using your best pitchers in high-leverage situations no matter when they come up, yet still think your best hitter should bat first and not second.
