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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I'll concede that the automatic out in front of him makes it tricky. That's my #3 beef. Pitchers shouldn't be so shitty at hitting.
Paulie The Vig
Pretty much a regular
He strikes out almost 200 times a year. I also hate the pitcher batting 8th and I hate it more when a player says a strike out is like any other out which is such BS. put the bat on the ball and things can happen strike out and nothing happens. I can live with my best hitter batting 2nd Math has proven that but on my team he bats third. Old School best hitter bats third but as I said I can live with 2 but not lead off.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I should say I have no problem leading off Trout if he's my best hitter, whereas the aforementioned Ichiro is my ideal leadoff hitter. I want baserunners. I'm not going to pretend to know when they pop up in a game, you shouldn't either, I just want 'em on base. I also want the best possible chance my best hitter gets to hit. I'm crazy that way. Pitchers' knees start knocking, managers start fidgeting, defenses shift, pitches get fatter.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Yes. Give your best hitters the most whacks.
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dudleysdad
Guest
How dare u
Paulie The Vig
Pretty much a regular
They pay Votto,Trout, and guys like to drive runs in not to lead off and get on base so a lesser player can drive you home.
Baseball nobody can bunt anymore and when the shift is on just bunt maybe 5 times for the year and see how they think about putting the shift on. The shift, smart people have say it's the way to go like hack a shaq but to me it ruining the game because the players wont take advantage of it. I'll bet if some good hitter started taking what the defense gave him might see another 400 hitter. The avg now is I think a little below 4.5 runs a game and it's not all because of no juice. Most people want to see some offensive, hey I like 2-1 games but not every night.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
<tbody>
[TD="align: center"] Lineup Position [/TD]
[TD="align: center"] Plate Appearances [/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 1[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 767[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 2[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 749[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 3[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 732[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 4[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 714[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 5[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 697[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 6[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 680[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 7[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 661[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 8[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 643[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 9[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 625[/TD]
</tbody>
But let's look at another element. How often does each lineup position come up with men on base?
<tbody>
[TD="align: center"] Lineup Position [/TD]
[TD="align: center"] Number of Times With Men on Base [/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 1[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 259[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 2[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 323[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 3[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 351[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 4[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 363[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 5[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 333[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 6[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 314[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 7[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 304[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 8[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 293[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 9[/TD]
[TD="width: 150, align: center"] 288[/TD]
</tbody>
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
This is hollow to me.
It gives me no idea about how an inning might unfold, how a pitcher might perform, with runners on base. If I want runs, I want guys on base. If I want guys on base, I want my best hitters to get the most shots.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
Again, would you have liked your shot at scoring runs better depending on:
a) Kenny Lofton and Omar Vizquel to get on base ahead of Carlos Baerga and Albert Belle or b) Paul Sorrento and Sandy Alomar Jr. to get on base ahead of Carlos Baerga and Albert Belle.
Not really that complicated an answer...
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dudleysdad
Guest
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
That billjames thing is based on teams doing the same thing over and over and over and over again for 100 years. It would look different if I hit Gehrig 1 and Ruth 2.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
That part is true, but my point was who's going to get on base more: the number 8 and 9 hitters or the number 1 and 2 hitters? Pretty sure the answer is the number 1 and 2 hitters, so why would you bat your best hitter leadoff when he's less likely to come up to bat with runners on base than if he were hitting number 3?
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dudleysdad
Guest
Besides inning one how many times does ur 3 hole hitter come up 3rd ?
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Lareux
Guest
The best hitter doesn't necessarily mean power hitter at all. The best hitter would be the one who hits for the best average, making lots of contact, and usually minimally striking out. Power hitters are pretty much the opposite of that. That's not to say there aren't guys who hit for average as well as power, but by no means does the best hitter mean power hitter at all.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I knew Lar would show up.
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dudleysdad
Guest
Where u been Larry?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I think Lar likes his best at #2. He's just one off.
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Lareux
Guest
It was always thought/said that the 3 hole should be your best hitter, and most MLB teams always did it that way. The new analytics, as Teed has pointed out, has shown that it's more beneficial to hit your best hitter 2nd.
I'm not sure where this "hit your best hitter leadoff" is coming from though. The leadoff hitter needs to have speed and get on base as much as possible to set up the others. They usually walk a lot, and can obviously steal bases. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many instances where a team's leadoff hitter is their best hitter...I'm sure it happens, but the best hitter isn't intentionally hit leadoff because he's the best hitter, he just happens to become the best hitter while hitting leadoff.
I'm not sure where this "hit your best hitter leadoff" is coming from though. The leadoff hitter needs to have speed and get on base as much as possible to set up the others. They usually walk a lot, and can obviously steal bases. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many instances where a team's leadoff hitter is their best hitter...I'm sure it happens, but the best hitter isn't intentionally hit leadoff because he's the best hitter, he just happens to become the best hitter while hitting leadoff.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
Think your missing the mark dud: the question should be how often does the number 3 hitter (not the 3rd batter to hit in the inning, but the 3rd batter in the original batting order) come up to the plate with runners on base as opposed to the number 1 hitter (not the 1st batter to hit in the inning, but the 1st batter in the original batting order).
For example, your 2008 Phillies: what would Utley's numbers have looked like if Manuel had him bat leadoff all season? That would of meant he would have been dependent on guys like Feliz, Ruiz and the pitcher to get on base in order to drive them in, right? Instead, he hit third and had guys like J-Roll and Werth on base in front of him all season. Getting Utley 25 more at bats over the course of the season by batting him #1 probably would have cost the Phils who knows how many runs and who knows how many wins.
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Lareux
Guest
I'm okay with 2nd or 3rd, to be honest. The analytics recently have shown it may be better to hit them 2nd. Hitting them leadoff is ludicrous...unless, of course, they have speed, steal bases, and have a high OBP.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
If I'm managing against you, and you want to limit the plate appearances of your best hitter all by yourself, I say, "Thank you."
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
I think you meant to say "thanks man"...
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Lareux
Guest
If I'm managing against you, I'm manager of the year every year. You don't use stats or analytics, and rely on your gut feels (which don't exactly have the best track record).
:tiphat:
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I have managed many ramshackle little league teams against the picks of the litter. I hit my best hitters up top, I throw my best pitchers next, next inning is next inning guy's problem.
Baseball has no clock. There is no reason to save your best for last.
Baseball has no clock. There is no reason to save your best for last.
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
it doesnt mean hitter with the best batting average either
Miguel Cabrera hitting .320 with 40 home runs and 40 doubles is infinitely better than Ichiro hitting .350 with 5 Home Runs, 40 doubles, and 5 triples
wRC and OPS are much better
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Lareux
Guest
They most likely would...which is exactly the reason you don't want to waste your best hitter in the leadoff spot. Especially since we've just seen the minimal difference in plate appearances over the course of a season.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
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Lareux
Guest
Right. Best average was one of the things I listed...I realize it was worded poorly, and I should have written "usually hits for the best average."
My main point was that it certainly does not mean the best power hitter. Surprised you didn't chime in when that silly statement was written to let him know it was wrong.
You're also talking about the most productive hitter in your example, which I agree with. Ichiro is/was a better hitter than Miggy though...of course he wasn't more productive because Miggy is a beast.
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
im just confused as to how leadoff is still even an option for the argument
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
NL is, sadly, different. But it shouldn't be. If my pitcher can't hit, I probably wouldn't bat my best hitter behind him. I might do that pitcher at 8 thing, in front of my slappy SS.
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Lareux
Guest
Exactly.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Because I want him at the plate.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
2015 Tribe. Where do you bat Kipnis?
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
Kind of like saying you want Lebron playing C so he's closer to the basket...
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Lareux
Guest
I'm sure you can find examples where it makes sense (as I said, it's probably happened), but you're saying you'd do it as a rule and that's just insane.
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Lareux
Guest
Rickey Henderson back in the day for the Yankees may be an example of when it's happened.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
More like saying you want Lebron to handle the ball to maximize your scoring opportunity because everyone else is hurt.
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Gyno
Guest
2001 giants.
Would you bat bonds 2nd?
Would you bat bonds 2nd?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
The exception could be the rule if teams opened their eyes. You guys are thinking about the first inning. In the American League, no less. I'm thinking about the whole game.
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dudleysdad
Guest
Tip
U won't win against these guys
U won't win against these guys
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Lareux
Guest
That's because the stats and numbers say the opposite of what Tip is proclaiming (as usual).
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Half these clowns want me to give up an out for a base.
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Lareux
Guest
Sure, why not? I certainly wouldn't have even thought, for a millisecond, of hitting him leadoff.
Bonds was so great back then, hitting a HR or walking basically every plate appearance, it probably made a bit more sense to hit him 3rd. Just more chances to get guys on base for him.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
You have no stats, nor numbers, dismissing my position.
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dudleysdad
Guest
I'm on tips side here
I made this move late 2007 softball season. We made a huge push at a title
I made this move late 2007 softball season. We made a huge push at a title
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Lareux
Guest
Who wants that? In certain situations, sure, but as a rule, no way.
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Lareux
Guest
Except for what was posted in this thread showing the difference in ABs per season and the difference in having an AB with guys on base...and the other stuff that Teed posted with actual math. That's just the start, you can google it yourself and see all of the numbers.
