Kobe or LeBron?

Kobe or LeBron?

  • Kobe

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • LeBron

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
obviously carmello anthony is a better player than kobe bryant...it's right there in black and white...

i also wanna know how many of these shots are from the same games...hence OT, DOT, I further wanna know the average distance of these game winning shots...i'm willing to bet lebrons is at the rim and kobes is a long range jumper...

also i'd like to point out that in the span of 6 years...lebron has 3 more "game winning shots"...somthing that this stat doesnt point out is 4th quarter production in close games...I think you'l find kobe's numbers SLIGHTLY above the leave average
 
this doesn't measure who the best player in the nba is. it measures who is the best player in the nba in the clutch as the article defined it.

2 pts is 2 pts is it not? why would distance matter unless it's a 3 pt shot?

if you wanted to know who the best player in the nba was through math and not someone's opinion you would have to tear apart seasons of play by play. you would have to record which ten players are on the floor, if it is a home game or road game for them, the change in offensive and defensive rating while on the floor.

then to compare different seasons of data who would have to use z scores as the strength of the league changes year to year. you couldn't just compare the players of the 70s with the players of today based on the strength of today's league. you would have to find out how good that say 1971 player was in 1971 over the mean in 1971 divided by the standard deviation in 1971 . then do the same for a player from 2006. if the player from 1971 had a higher z score than the player in 2006 he would be said to be better than the player from 2006.

it's a huge project. you would need to have the boxscores and complete ones at that (something that doesn't exist), one hell of memory on your computer, know how to tear apart the play by plays, and know how to put together the model.

it'll never happen. so we'll continue to debate through what our eyes and bias tell us.
 
Also have to look at who is put into those situations the most via team performance to get an accuarte reading league-wide.
 
speaking of bias reading about "the wisdom of crowds" is a pretty good read if anyone has time.
 
54-54. Funny.

I honestly had no idea this would be close. I must be watching a different league than the Kobe voters this past year or two. To look at LeBron these days and conclude that he's NOT the best player in the world is extremely... puzzling to me.
 
brewer said:
this doesn't measure who the best player in the nba is. it measures who is the best player in the nba in the clutch as the article defined it.

2 pts is 2 pts is it not? why would distance matter unless it's a 3 pt shot?

if you wanted to know who the best player in the nba was through math and not someone's opinion you would have to tear apart seasons of play by play. you would have to record which ten players are on the floor, if it is a home game or road game for them, the change in offensive and defensive rating while on the floor.

then to compare different seasons of data who would have to use z scores as the strength of the league changes year to year. you couldn't just compare the players of the 70s with the players of today based on the strength of today's league. you would have to find out how good that say 1971 player was in 1971 over the mean in 1971 divided by the standard deviation in 1971 . then do the same for a player from 2006. if the player from 1971 had a higher z score than the player in 2006 he would be said to be better than the player from 2006.

it's a huge project. you would need to have the boxscores and complete ones at that (something that doesn't exist), one hell of memory on your computer, know how to tear apart the play by plays, and know how to put together the model.

it'll never happen. so we'll continue to debate through what our eyes and bias tell us.
Click to expand...


you're making an argument based on a fundamental flaw....your conclusion is that Kobe is a poor clutch player...

find ONE NBA expert to say this...

this is ridiculous, and so far off point it's silly.

If you get a chart to lead to conclusion, and the conclusion is wrong...then the chart is inaccurate...simple

someone posted a link recently to the GM polls....88% of the GMs int eh league want Kobe taking the last shot of a big game over the entire league...lebron included....now Kill pointed out that this implied a jumpshot...ok fine...say it does...that means GMs want Kobe taking the final jumper rather than any other active player...sounds "below the mean"

you're saying that Kobe and Wade are both well below average in the "clutch"...

how can you read this chart and take it seriously after finding dwayne wade and kobe bryant on the bottom of the list?
 
the next question is why is this chart wrong?...

first of all, no one can be sure as to the accuracy of these shots documented

second of all, there aren't enough shot attempts to give a meaningful and reliable percentage

finally, if you know basketball...you know a lot more about game winning shots...

what i mean is simple...a lot of the players on this list are catch and shoot type scorers...if they're attempting the game winning shot it's b/c someone got them the ball at their spot and they had enough room to get the shot off...VERY few of the players on this list have the ball in their hands when the final possession starts....Lebron does, Kobe does, a few others...but that's of course important b/c if the focus is on the man with the ball the entire time and then he's taking the shot...it requires a lot more skill to get off a good attempt...one thing this list DOES tell me is who is relied on MOST for end of game situations...I see Carter, Bryant, and James with the most attempts....THAT makes sense to me...three of the most dangerous players on the planet with the ball in their hands to be sure...Wade would surely be up there if he wasn't hurt all the time and have lost years to his team not being in contention late in games that much...


what does a stat with 50 shot attempts max prove? nothing...that's what i'm saying...please stop making reference to this as if this proves to the point of certainty that Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade are welllll below average with the game on the line
 
Killa said:
54-54. Funny.

I honestly had no idea this would be close. I must be watching a different league than the Kobe voters this past year or two. To look at LeBron these days and conclude that he's NOT the best player in the world is extremely... puzzling to me.
Click to expand...


wow, EXACTLY my point...

in the last TWO YEARS...what Lebron has done has impressed me more than Kobe...

but why is this all that needs to be considered??!!??

If Kobe were in the finals tomorrow we're really supposed to believe that he and his cast are supposed to perform as poorly as the they have in the past? Why?

You're saying b/c James has been better in the last year or two, it's a no brainer?...Last year was Kobe's worst? Is it your contention that we can expect him to do the same AGAIN? The only way you can make that contention is to say that his game has declined so much that he's not capable of the NBA championship MVP winning performances he's given us in the past...

You're telling me that Kobe's legacy defining moment came well over a decade into his career against a fated Boston Celtics team that has proven the line was off when set @ 2-1? Well then how can you possibly tell me what kind of legacy Lebron will have when all is said and done? He has to win three titles, and THEN several years later, make it back for you to find out how HIS legacy is going to be defined.

The simple truth of the matter is, nobody has any idea how James will be viewed in the history books b/c he's on chapter 3 of 20 right now. Kobe has been to 5 NBA finals and won 60% of them. He's been the league MVP, he's been the finals MVP, he's done it all...along with great success will surely come some failure...how else would we gauge his success?...Lebron has done nothing but fail so far...now I'm not saying it's his fault...he hasn't had the team...but when you have no team and you put up the bulk of the points in the big games...it doesn't make me jump to the conclusion that you're the best player with the game on the line...

Lebron HAS to win some championships before you can use Kobe's worst finals performance against him. You cant have it both ways
 
i coulda sworn he had, i guess league mvp will have to do...

i love how you read 2 pages and comment on my mistake and let idiots claiming kobe is bad in the clutch slide
 
I keep seeing references to Kobe's championship years. For a question on who's the better player today, 5 years ago doesn't seem useful. I'd say, this season is useful, maybe last season, but probably not even before that. Also, no one has answered my question:

How is it set that kobe is the better defender? I can see the 1st team all defense, which btw is an overrated and often unthought of stat. I think a prime example of his defensive abilities was the past NBA finals: Boston has 2 All-stars at the wing position. Yet, the Lakers "brilliant" defensive decision was to have Kobe defend Rajon Rondo? I can see the strategy in that Kobe can then coast on D and help out while leaving Rondo open jump shots, but if Kobe was the best defender on the team, let alone a top wing defender in the league, wouldn't you have him lock down an iso player like pierce and have someone else play a gimmick defense to help out off of Rondo? If Kobe was such a great defender, why is Ariza so valuable to the Lakers as a wing defender- to defend the best player on the other team. Thats essentially his main assignment. I don't trust the argument of letting Kobe rest up for offense because 1) most coaches will agree that defense > offense 2) do you really need to make tactics to help the best professional athlete in the league not get tired

anyone?

also to broadway's thing: I watch more laker games than cavs game, and am in the west, but I don't think it's really close to who's the best player in the league
 
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According to your charts and the case your trying to make, this means all these players listed above are better than LBJ and Kobe???


:36_11_6::36_11_6::36_11_6:

KB24 > LBJ
 
SF capper...as far as defenders go...

Lebron is probably a better defender...b/c his size enables him to defense players kobe simply cannot...yet he has the same speed as Kobe....Kobe has an edge with experience and pure defensive skill at the moment..but James will develop it in time
 
SF_capper said:
I keep seeing references to Kobe's championship years. For a question on who's the better player today, 5 years ago doesn't seem useful. I'd say, this season is useful, maybe last season, but probably not even before that. Also, no one has answered my question:

How is it set that kobe is the better defender? I can see the 1st team all defense, which btw is an overrated and often unthought of stat. I think a prime example of his defensive abilities was the past NBA finals: Boston has 2 All-stars at the wing position. Yet, the Lakers "brilliant" defensive decision was to have Kobe defend Rajon Rondo? I can see the strategy in that Kobe can then coast on D and help out while leaving Rondo open jump shots, but if Kobe was the best defender on the team, let alone a top wing defender in the league, wouldn't you have him lock down an iso player like pierce and have someone else play a gimmick defense to help out off of Rondo? If Kobe was such a great defender, why is Ariza so valuable to the Lakers as a wing defender- to defend the best player on the other team. Thats essentially his main assignment. I don't trust the argument of letting Kobe rest up for offense because 1) most coaches will agree that defense > offense 2) do you really need to make tactics to help the best professional athlete in the league not get tired

anyone?

also to broadway's thing: I watch more laker games than cavs game, and am in the west, but I don't think it's really close to who's the best player in the league
Click to expand...

SF Capper, first of all, I agree that rest isn't a factor. For 4 - 5 minutes a game maybe, for the whole game? No way. We can also see Pierce, LeBron guarding each other or other superstars, so you can't really clame that. Still, having said that, I don't remember Kobe guarding Rondo the entire series. I remember him guarding Pierce, Alan, Rondo. Second, the decision who to guard is Phil's not Kobe's. I can't imagine, even if Kobe the worst defender in the history of the league, him not demanding to guard the best player of the rival team. Third, I don't think that Kobe is "that" great of a defender. He is a good, very good defender, but he isn't future HOF because of his defense. He isn't Pippen let's say...
But, LeBron isn't that great either. Yeah, he makes blocks that make it to highlights, but overall? With his body stucture? He should own the league on both ends of the floor and he is far from doing that. I think they are both good on defense and Kobe is better by a nose only because of his expirience. If it's a zone defense, no doubt, I prefer Kobe, but if it's a break and a rival player is a step ahead to the basket, no doubt LeBron has the better chance to deny a basket and by far...
 
Billivy said:
SF capper...as far as defenders go...

Lebron is probably a better defender...b/c his size enables him to defense players kobe simply cannot...yet he has the same speed as Kobe....Kobe has an edge with experience and pure defensive skill at the moment..but James will develop it in time
Click to expand...

Missed your answer when was writing mine :)
 
ddk, you are lost. i didn't say in this thread i would pick lebron over kobe based on this article that defined "clutch." i pointed out that kobe didn't stack up to well in it compared to league mean while lebron was quite higher. also, i didn't say those players with better fg% where better than lbj or kobe as an overall player. if you think anyone would take rick davis over lerbon well i dunno what to say.

this article measured one 24 second or less span of the nba game (i believe). i'm not going back to this article again. you read the article and you wanna deny kobe performs at a below level in this scenario then you bias. he does. numbers say so.
 
with a mean of .298 and kobe shoting at .25 something is going on here. statistics tells us the data is significant.
 
brewer said:
ddk, you are lost. i didn't say in this thread i would pick lebron over kobe based on this article that defined "clutch." i pointed out that kobe didn't stack up to well in it compared to league mean while lebron was quite higher. also, i didn't say those players with better fg% where better than lbj or kobe as an overall player. if you think anyone would take rick davis over lerbon well i dunno what to say.

this article measured one 24 second or less span of the nba game (i believe). i'm not going back to this article again. you read the article and you wanna deny kobe performs at a below level in this scenario then you bias. he does. numbers say so.
Click to expand...

Yeah but it does tell us who is better at the clutch?
I mean with all the respect to Francis, Lewis, Paul, Bibby, Igoudala and of course, Davis, I would feel much much much better to have Duncan, Alan, Iverson or Kobe to take the last shot for me than any of the other mentioned players and to be on my team not only for the last shot, but for the whole final minute (especially Duncan and Kobe, less Alan and Iverson).
 
tazz said:
it's michael.......then.... everybody else

kobe is a far cry from mj...i am lucky to have lived in mj's era, there will never be another like him.....mj 6, kobe 3, bron will get more than kobe, less than mj...bron is physically gifted like nobody else and he is not a rapist like kobe...bron is a stud, and he has the mental advantage that only mj did...bron is the fuckin man
Click to expand...

so sad to see you saying this especially cuz i would tail you...but are you really saying lebron has the mental advantage over kobe??

ridiculous...lebron has even mentioned kobes "killer instinct" attitude when speaking in high regards of kobe. Lebron is nothing close to jordan yet. Kobe is much closer but still not better. Kobe has a very very high basketball IQ..you could see it when he is on the court handling every player on his team (being the leader)....

just listen to kobe when he is interviewed just at half-time (any game). When he is asked a question, i dont think any player responds the way he does, he gives a quick analysis of what is going on on the court, he sounds like a coach. maybe its just me but i dont see that with anyone else...mental advantage, IQ, leadership, all that shit goes to kobe for sure.


and did someone else in this forum say kobe sucks at clutch time?????? Give me chris paul over kobe???? thank god fans dont make a vote on draft choices!!! what the hell are nba fans coming to?????
 
And now LeBron leads by one. I have to say though, I looked at the votes and "someone" voted for Bron under two different names
 
The most dominant player in the game hands down today. Lebron. Its really not close if we are making this debate, who would you rather have TODAY. He can really get to the basket whenever he wants. He settles for jumpers too much for his ability to get to the rim, but I honestly think if he wanted to do it Lebron could average something like 35 ppg, 7 boards, 6 assists. I really think Wade is making a push for second best all around player this year though.
 
signalcaller said:
The most dominant player in the game hands down today. Lebron. Its really not close if we are making this debate, who would you rather have TODAY. He can really get to the basket whenever he wants. He settles for jumpers too much for his ability to get to the rim, but I honestly think if he wanted to do it Lebron could average something like 35 ppg, 7 boards, 6 assists. I really think Wade is making a push for second best all around player this year though.
Click to expand...

I mean he averaged 30-8-7 last year, 31-7-7 in 2006. Lost the MVP both years. It's comical. This year he'll win it easily. I don't see how they won't give it to him basically every year from here on out actually. They should, but they'll throw a bone every other year or so to other greats like Wade, Howard, Paul... like they did during MJ's career when they gave it to Mailman, Chuck, etc.
 
kobe.

...he doesn't have off nights and i think LBJ is overrated.

...the 2nd coming has to hit better than 73.4% from the FT line
 
I think we can all agree at this point that D-Wade has earned himself a spot in this conversation.
 
Killa said:
I think we can all agree at this point that D-Wade has earned himself a spot in this conversation.
Click to expand...

I dont think so. I still think it goes w/out a doubt in my mind
Lebron
Kobe

Wade.

Wade has done some great things so far this year but he was such a disappointment all of last year. Plus that whole bandaid thing dropped him down to a whole new level on my lack of respect poll. If it means anything though I clearly think he is the 3rd best player
 
He's currently 14-17 from the floor for 36-5-5 through 3 quarters on the road. He's just been having these performances all year. Forget last year, he was never healthy and never himself. This is the real Wade that we're seeing now.

He might have a chance at shooting at or close to 50% from the floor this year which is something Kobe has never come close to doing. Big statistical difference between Kobe and MJ is shooting percentage. MJ was a consistent 50% shooter which is just amazing.
 
Dont get me wrong I think if not by the end of the year, atleast during the middle of next year Wade will be number 2. I still give the slight edge to Kobe though. But doesnt it seem like Lebron and Wade can change the game in any way. I cant even remember the last time I have seen Kobe get 12 assissts or put up like 25-10-7. Wade has been doing this in what seems like every game. Not that I think Kobe is fading or anything like that, he is still a hell of a player but LBJ and Wade seem like they can score or atleast get a look any time they want. I dont know if Kobe can do that anymore. He needs to force his shots up, or get them from the ft line. Wade and Lebron just make it come to them, and are very efficient in doing it.
 
signalcaller said:
Dont get me wrong I think if not by the end of the year, atleast during the middle of next year Wade will be number 2. I still give the slight edge to Kobe though. But doesnt it seem like Lebron and Wade can change the game in any way. I cant even remember the last time I have seen Kobe get 12 assissts or put up like 25-10-7. Wade has been doing this in what seems like every game. Not that I think Kobe is fading or anything like that, he is still a hell of a player but LBJ and Wade seem like they can score or atleast get a look any time they want. I dont know if Kobe can do that anymore. He needs to force his shots up, or get them from the ft line. Wade and Lebron just make it come to them, and are very efficient in doing it.
Click to expand...

Agreed. They're both younger with a lot less mileage on their bodies (although I do think whatever Kobe has lost physically, he's made up for it mentally). But if Kobe explodes in the playoffs and leads them to the title, we'll know he was just chillen and biding his time during the regular season.
 
In a game to basically (in my opinion) clinch the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference & LeBron shoots 5/15 while losing to the KG-less Celtics...

"King James" vs elite teams this season...

27/61 (44%) vs BOS
14/45 (31%) vs LAL
10/27 (37%) vs ORL
12/23 (52%) vs SAS

24.7 PTS (40% FG, 30% 3PT, 67% FT), 6.4 AST, 4.3 TO in these 7 games & CLE is 2-5
 
Last edited:
Why do people keep saying this game was to clinch the #1 seed? I'm confused by that.
 
Killa said:
Why do people keep saying this game was to clinch the #1 seed? I'm confused by that.
Click to expand...

great question and I'm also confused.

Another point your brought up earlier....completely think Kobe is coasting through the season for the playoffs. I don't particularly like the guy, but he's capable of much more if he wanted to. He's just saving it for the playoffs.
 
Also have to keep in mind when we look at what Wade is doing... he doesn't have anything close to the team Kobe has. Kobe has had so many blowout wins this year where he's just coasted. Wade has to be superhuman every game for that team. What Wade is doing now is comparable not to Kobe right now, but to Kobe a couple years ago, when he averaged 35 PPG. Then again, Wade is dishing out assists and lifting up his teammates in a way Kobe definitely did not do that year...
 
Killa said:
Why do people keep saying this game was to clinch the #1 seed? I'm confused by that.
Click to expand...

With a Cleveland win last night...

-Up 3 in the loss column with 19 or 20 games to play (9 of them for Cleveland are vs. non-playoff teams)
-Cleveland would lead the series 2-1 with 1 more meeting in Cleveland
-Kevin Garnett is out AT LEAST 2 more weeks with Doc Rivers playing it ultra safe


-In MY opinion, it would have been lights out...
 
Killa said:
Also have to keep in mind when we look at what Wade is doing... he doesn't have anything close to the team Kobe has. Kobe has had so many blowout wins this year where he's just coasted. Wade has to be superhuman every game for that team. What Wade is doing now is comparable not to Kobe right now, but to Kobe a couple years ago, when he averaged 35 PPG. Then again, Wade is dishing out assists and lifting up his teammates in a way Kobe definitely did not do that year...
Click to expand...

Honestly, THIS SEASON, Wade has been better than the two players we are discussing in this thread...

In his current 4-game span he has averaged 41 PPG with 11 APG :36_11_6:
 
H.R. Pufnstuf said:
With a Cleveland win last night...

-Up 3 in the loss column with 19 or 20 games to play (9 of them for Cleveland are vs. non-playoff teams)
-Cleveland would lead the series 2-1 with 1 more meeting in Cleveland
-Kevin Garnett is out AT LEAST 2 more weeks with Doc Rivers playing it ultra safe


-In MY opinion, it would have been lights out...
Click to expand...

OK. I get that. It would have clinched (still arguable) the #1 seed for the Cavs, but in no way does it clinch the #1 seed for the C's.
 
Cleveland is 27-1 at home and 13 of their last 21 games are at home. They are looking very good to get the #1 seed.

HR- Wade has been amazing, no question. Yet another incredible season by a player who won't win the MVP, and may not even come in second.
 
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