Your top 4 before 'Selection Sunday' and a personal take as well...

Correct me if I'm wrong. We'll never really know who's the best this year.
 
SEC plays Sun Belt. Big Ten plays MAC. Then they play their conference schedules vs teams of varied degree of difficulty. When you a mid-major team and you schedule Sun Belt or MAC teams ontop of your weak mid-major schedules the accomplishments to not compare.

Sure upsets can happen. Anyone can beat anyone. That is why 2, 3 and 4 TD underdogs sometimes win. Throw a bunch of teams in a room and the supposed favorite won't always walk out alive.

If we are going to talk change in terms of expansion the only way to do it is with conference champions, even mid major conference champions. I could never think including "wild card" teams who by results on the field already proved they weren't as good as teams ranked ahead of them in the pool would be a good idea. And really including a bunch of mid major conference champions isn't a good idea either. The road traveled is much much easier and therefore they are not as qualified as the major conference champions. For 80+ years until the BCS they rewarded the most excellent team the national championship. Then they had the two most excellent teams play to earn the championship. Now we have the 4 and in my opinion is just about right. The 4 team model, if you use only conference champions has plenty of room for excellent mid major champions as history would show.. MWC teams would've qualified if you apply that system to prior years.
 
Right, if there is a 5th team that has a creditable argument what do you have to do to get them a seat at the table? Include 3 undeserving teams and muddy up the water with the ones at the top? It isn't worth it.

If people are laughing at Ohio St's schedule what do you think they would say about Marshall's?
 
Nothing you posted, or have posted, presents an argument against determining a champion on the field, which is all I'm suggesting.
 
They are taking the 4 best teams, as determined by body of work and wins and losses on the field. They play those 4 teams on the field. The winner in the national champion. That works to me.
 
Sorry, that have posted thing was redundant. Can't recall my point.
 
s--k said:
They are taking the 4 best teams, as determined by body of work and wins and losses on the field. They play those 4 teams on the field. The winner in the national champion. That works to me.
Click to expand...

Why does that work though? That bugs the shit out of me. And I love, love college football. And it has always bugged me.
 
People opposed to how I feel are opposed to the following:

NFL playoffs
High schoof playoffs
Wimbledon
The Masters
Olympics
 
To your point, sure we'll never know if Marshall would beat Alabama. We'll never know if Boise would beat Oregon. We'll never know if Georgia Southern would beat Florida State. We'll never know if Northern Illinois would beat Ohio State. We'll never know if Memphis or UCF would beat somebody in the top 4. We'll never know if UCLA would beat Ohio St. We'll never know if Ole Miss would beat FSU. We'll never know if Michigan St would beat Alabama. We'll never know alot of things involving teams that will never play.

I do not believe they should all be included to play for all the marbles. It gets figured out as the regular season plays out. The cream rises to the top and 4 of those teams now play eachother. There will always be controversy be it a 2 team system, a 4 team system, a 8 team or a 16 team system. I do not think we need to keep adding playoff spots to teams just because somebody always thinks they got shut out of a national title shot.

I'm no fan of this committee. I would rather they just have used the BCS rankings with a qualifier or two to get the 4 teams. Qualifiers like teams losing head-to-head vs another playoff bound team would be eliminated. And winning one's conference as a prerequisit.

But all-in-all I think they got it pretty close to right.

What is the biggest complaint here? Not that we need 8 teams, I mean that has been and will be brought up from time to time. It is Ohio St's inclusion into the playoff over a Big XII team. So really they got 3 of the 4 teams right. If we had 8 teams would they always get all 8 right? Probably not. So going to 8 doesn't fix that problem and in my opinion opens up other problems.
 
s--k said:
To your point, sure we'll never know if Marshall would beat Alabama. We'll never know if Boise would beat Oregon. We'll never know if Georgia Southern would beat Florida State. We'll never know if Northern Illinois would beat Ohio State. We'll never know if Memphis or UCF would beat somebody in the top 4. We'll never know if UCLA would beat Ohio St. We'll never know if Ole Miss would beat FSU. We'll never know if Michigan St would beat Alabama. We'll never know alot of things involving teams that will never play.

I do not believe they should all be included to play for all the marbles. It gets figured out as the regular season plays out. The cream rises to the top and 4 of those teams now play eachother. There will always be controversy be it a 2 team system, a 4 team system, a 8 team or a 16 team system. I do not think we need to keep adding playoff spots to teams just because somebody always thinks they got shut out of a national title shot.

I'm no fan of this committee. I would rather they just have used the BCS rankings with a qualifier or two to get the 4 teams. Qualifiers like teams losing head-to-head vs another playoff bound team would be eliminated. And winning one's conference as a prerequisit.

But all-in-all I think they got it pretty close to right.

What is the biggest complaint here? Not that we need 8 teams, I mean that has been and will be brought up from time to time. It is Ohio St's inclusion into the playoff over a Big XII team. So really they got 3 of the 4 teams right. If we had 8 teams would they always get all 8 right? Probably not. So going to 8 doesn't fix that problem and in my opinion opens up other problems.
Click to expand...

They could play the games.
 
To your point(s), how do you know who wins these hypothetical games?
 
tipyerbartender said:
People opposed to how I feel are opposed to the following:

NFL playoffs
High schoof playoffs
Wimbledon
The Masters
Olympics
Click to expand...

Do you think the best team from week 1 to week 16 in the playoffs always wins the Super Bowl? Wild card teams have infact won the super bowl as we know, but are they the best team throughout the course of the regular season? No. If they were they would not be wild card teams.

This is what I'm getting at. I love using the regular season in college football to see who are these best teams. Not everyone goes undefeated. But who are the teams that are the most consistent vs the toughest opponents that make it to the end of the season with the fewest losses? Those are the teams that I want to see play for a national championship because to me, those are the best teams.

If Michigan St got into a tournament and won it like you suggested they could. What does that say for their loses to Oregon and Ohio St. Michigan St proved they were not one of the best teams this season twice, why should they be awarded a second chance? If they did somehow win the tournament I would have a hard time recognizing them as the national champion. I would think more of them the team that failed to beat Oregon and Ohio St the first time around.

That is more in line with the history of this sport. Not where the NFL or other sports with playoffs are at. I do not care about them and would not argue about any kind of system they put in place. I do care and love this sport and I really do not want to see it morph into two seasons. The best teams of the regular season and then the best teams in the post season. If we went to a large scale playoff that is what would happen. I guess you could say, ok big deal, why not do that. And I think that based on the history and tradition of this sport we are pretty close in line by just picking a limited number of best teams and having them play it out.
 
tipyerbartender said:
They could play the games.
Click to expand...

How many games. Why does Alabama have to prove they can beat a 2 loss Big Ten team when Ohio St and Oregon already did. If Alabama beats Ohio St and/or Oregon they by extension are better than Michigan St.

What you are suggesting would require some enormous post season tournament that can not be done in this sport. If you want to contend we take all the conference champions and have them play it out that is one thing. If you want wild card teams who didn't win their own divisions and conferences in the mix that is quite another.
 
The best teams gets a chance. They earn a chance. In one sport, it's an opinion.
 
The Browns will know why they didn't make the playoffs. Baylor won't.
 
Explain it to Baylor and explain why Ohio State is in and make sense.
 
Havent had a chance to read the whole thread but excited to.

The "Big 12 doesn't have a Championship Game" argument is a joke. They already played everyone in the conference. Why do they need to play again? Baylor/KSU would
have been the north/south title game anyway. Shouldn't change a thing. They are the only conference that plays everyone as is. If they add 2 Colorado/Vandy teams and play a title game that validates them more somehow?

If tOSU beat Wisky 59-0 back in week 6 instead of yesterday they don't get in. Baylor has a win over a Top 5-6 team.....Ohio St does not.
 
First off, from Baylor's perspective they should not and can not concern themselves with what the other teams did. It always lies within.

It is the same reason that head coaches following a loss when asked about what the other team did to beat them the coach of the losing team will always turn it inward. It wasn't what the opponent did, it is what their team didn't do.

Same thing in life. Too many people look around and see people with nice stuff and good jobs and think why can't I have that too? You can't hate the people that have it just because they have it and others do not. They should do everything in their power to get what they want.

And that is it. Baylor did not do everything in their power to get where they wanted to go. They can only blame themselves if they are being honest.

This isn't like prior years when undefeated teams got shut out, when you lose a game you open the door to be judged against other teams that lost games. Win more games and you get where you want to go, like Florida St.

So for Baylor it shouldn't be about what Ohio St did or didn't do, it has to be about what Baylor themselves didn't do.
 
Johnnyonthespot said:
I do sometimes feel the GOD, Team, Conference

8 teams would be freaking perfect. It would just add one more game to each and would be inclusive enough. If tOsu gets in and knocks off Bama, Urban Meyer is on Mt Rushmore.
Click to expand...
8 is too many for me Johnny

6 with the top 2 getting byes is as far as I can go


8 diminishes the regular season.....way too much
 
Alan Tongue said:
And what happened to Ohio State on September 6 doesn't count?
Click to expand...

It does count, losing to VT. That and losing to WVU counts. It is all just one part of the equation.

For the record I had Baylor 4, I posted it here before the committee. So I am not an Ohio St fan, nor a Baylor hater.

I am just someone that can understand why the committee might have choose Ohio St over Baylor.

Ohio St played 10 bowl eligible teams and won 9 of them.

Baylor played 6 bowl eligible teams and won 5 of them.

Ohio St played 3 games vs teams that won atleast 9 games and won all 3 of them.

Baylor played 2 games vs teams that won atleast 9 games and won 2.

Back it up one.

Ohio State played 4 teams that went 8-4 and won all 4 of them.

Baylor played 3 teams that went 8-4 and won 3 of them.

Throw in margin of victory. Vs 8+ win teams Ohio St won by 47-22 avg for a 25ppg margin. Baylor won 49-33 in the 3 wins for a 16 ppg margin.

Ohio St beat two 10 win teams. Baylor beat one 11 win team.

Ohio St's loss is worse. Baylor's loss is better.

I think resume is close between these teams.

Again, by defending Ohio St at 4 it makes it seem like I think they should be 4. I don't. I am taking the other side of the argument, I don't know for fun maybe, but as long as these committee people didn't make the decisions for money or fanbase or TV reasons then I can understand why they came to that decision. I don't agree with it, but I can accept why they did it.
 
twinkie13 said:
8 is too many for me Johnny

6 with the top 2 getting byes is as far as I can go


8 diminishes the regular season.....way too much
Click to expand...

Diminishes the regular season. Other than diminishing the chances of a lot, most, teams to win it? I don't follow. Where is the diminish?
 
s--k said:
I would rank like this:

t-1. Alabama
t-1. Oregon
3. Florida St
4. Baylor

I think the Committee will rank like this:
1. Alabama
2. Oregon
3. Florida St
4. Ohio St.

That would put the geographic match up Bama vs FSU and the traditional Rose matchup of Big Ten vs Pac 12.

I can not and will not ignore a head-to-head game between TCU and Baylor when the rest of the resume is fairly even.

TCU's best win is over a 9 win Kansas St team. They also beat 8 win OU, 8 win Minny and 8 win WVU = 4 good wins. Quality loss at Baylor.
Baylor's best win is over an 11 win TCU team. They also beat 9 win OU and 8 win K St = 3 good wins. Played horrible, but not a horrible loss considering WVU is a decent 8 win team. Remember WVU almost beat TCU too in Morgantown. TCU played rather horrible at times too in that one.

Victories over double digit win teams:
Alabama: 2 (Miss St and Mizzou)
Oregon: 2 (Arz and Mich St)
Ohio St: 2 (Mich St and Wisconsin)
Florida St: 1 (GT)
Baylor: 1 (TCU)
TCU: 0

So who has the best win/wins? When answering that question TCU can't compare. Had they beaten Baylor it would be a totally different story.

I think the committee is going to send a message to both Baylor and TCU.

For Baylor, by leaving them out they are going to send a message that weak out of conference scheduling can and will hurt you.
For TCU, and really the Big XII teams as a whole, they are going to send a message of how much they value a 13th game in a Conference Championship matchup vs a quality opponent and not be left with squabling and tie breaking arguing. Pitting division winners vs each other has it's own flaws to me, but in the eyes of this committee it is going to mean alot I predict.

Plus the committee gets to weasel out of picking the TCU/Baylor equation by putting in Ohio St ahead of them avoiding that bit of controversy. Oh there will be controversy alright. But if they put in TCU over Baylor plus left Ohio State out they would face it on two fronts. By putting in Ohio St and leaving both TCU and Baylor out they effectively boil it down to one issue and since the Big XII's championship is somewhat flawed right now they can deflect it back towards the conference rather than themselves.

Then we have the whole fans who travel and TV market revenue thing with Ohio St.

I like Baylor over Ohio St still. Sure Ohio St does have 9 wins vs bowl eligible teams (Baylor only 5). And Ohio St does have 6 wins vs teams with 7+ wins, Baylor has just 3. But I don't see strength in that. 6-6 Penn St and 6-6 Illinois and 6-5 Navy as a collection aren't really any better than 6-6 Texas or 6-6 Oklahoma St are they? I don't give Ohio St that much of a bump for wins over 7 win Rutgers and 7 win Maryland who got absolutely destroyed by all the B1G power teams. And a home loss to 6-6 to VT is worse that a road loss to 8-4 WVU.

I won't argue too much with someone who has Ohio St in. I think the arguments are close. I do however feel strongly that wherever you rank Baylor, they should definitely be ahead of TCU.
Click to expand...
agree here and I said as much the other week in a thread...right or wrong, I think this is a major major factor.....and played as such.

Sucks cause I think TCU is better than a couple that are in there....and give problems to any squad
 
tipyerbartender said:
Diminishes the regular season. Other than diminishing the chances of a lot, most, teams to win it? I don't follow. Where is the diminish?
Click to expand...

Not addressed to me, but I'd like to say in my opinion, if you are giving teams that lost in the regular season to teams ranked ahead of them a second shot it diminishes that prior result. It makes the outcome of that game meaningless.
 
s--k said:
Why perfect?

You really want to add Michigan St in who already lost to Oregon and Ohio St?

Or Miss St who already lost to Bama? Surely you don't want 3 loss teams in the pool of elite teams do you?

Go back in history and look. It is so easy to say make it 8 teams, but when it comes down to it you water down the pool greatly by including teams that already lost to teams ranked ahead of them. Why not respect the results on the field of the regular season? Keeping the National Championship pool small does that.
Click to expand...
much of what he says here tip

I am still going through the thread, but THIS tipyerbartender

the big games during the Schedule should matter,,,,,immensely at that brotha:shake:
 
Its going to be hilarious when Baylor now starts scheduling a bunch of non-conference monsters, just in time for Briles to leave, the program to slide back to a sub-standard level and they will lose by 40 points to a bunch of ranked teams in years they go 3-9, haha
 
clowncar said:
is there anyone in here who would make tosu a favorite over tcu or Baylor? didn't think so ... they were four pt dogs to Wisconsin on a neutral for petes sake So not only does tosu lose the resume battle, the eye test battle ... they also lose the gambler battle. that is to say .. if you want the four best, it cant include tosu ... if you want the four most deserving it doesn't include tosu.

This is about to be really disgusting ... ....
Click to expand...
and I agree here also
 
I wouldn't put Ohio St. in the top 4, gun to head. I do think they could win it.
 
I wrote a blog for Phil Steele 5 years ago. I picked Vandy just because I thought it would be fun to follow them and see if they could build on the 2008 bowl season. I'm not a Vandy fan, or an SEC fan, or any team fan. I'm a betting fan and college football fan in general.

Anyway, if you are bored or having trouble sleeping tonight you can read this. I wrote it promoting a 4 team model using conference champions only. I feel the same way now as I do then.

http://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/Individual_Team_blogs/Vanderbilt_Blog.html
 
s--k said:
Anyway, if you are bored or having trouble sleeping tonight you can read this. I wrote it promoting a 4 team model using conference champions only. I feel the same way now as I do then.

http://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/Individual_Team_blogs/Vanderbilt_Blog.html
Click to expand...

Or essentially the same thing here post 102 just updated to 2013.
http://www.cappingthegame.com/forum...servations-on-Final-Four-Eligible-Teams/page3

This is just one man's opinion. I respect others. I just like to try and articulate my point as best I can. Ultimately there is NO perfect system.
 
clowncar said:
tcu and Baylor would both be favored over tosu/fsu.... and both have a better resume than tosu. I won't watch the playoffs. I will watch the other bowl games.

Disgraceful.
Click to expand...
I will watch all, but I am torn. Ohio St's loss to V Tech is vomit inducing. I can't see for the life of me how the cut-throat vommittee got past it.

And then the B12 knows it done fucked up(still sifting through the thread so apologies if posted, but)......I had a feeling this would cost em. Feel bad for TCU man

he Big 12 commissioner says the conference will reconsider how to declare its champion after being left out of the four-team college football playoff.
[h=4]More from ESPN.com[/h]
schlabach_mark_m.jpg
The only Power 5 league that doesn't stage a conference title game didn't have an outright champion, and its best teams had weak schedules, Mark Schlabach writes. Story


In a phone interview on the College Football Playoff Selection Show, Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby told ESPN's Rece Davis: "It's clear that we were penalized for not having a postseason championship game. It would have been nice to have been told that ahead of time."
"We have to weigh whether this is substantial enough to add institutions. ... It's certainly a major consideration."
The Big 12 would need to add two teams or have the NCAA approve a waiver to have a conference championship game. The Big 12 has 10 teams, and a conference must have 12 teams to have a conference championship game.
[+] Enlarge<cite style="margin: 0px 0px 4px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; display: block; color: rgb(171, 171, 171); background: transparent;">AP Photo/Tony Gutierrez</cite>Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby, right, said the league will reconsider how to declare its champion after being left out of the four-team college football playoff.


The words of Football Playoff Committee chairman Jeff Long "will cause us to go back to the drawing board a little bit and think about if we need a different model," Bowlsby said, referring to tie-breakers and title-game discussions.
The Big 12 is the only conference in the Power Five without a championship game, but plays a round-robin schedule. Baylor and TCU were co-champions, even with the Bears' head-to-head win over the Horned Frogs.
After Saturday's 38-27 win over Kansas State, Baylor coach Art Briles declared his team to the crowd as the only Big 12 champion. The night ended with Bowlsby and Briles engaged in an animated conversation on the podium about the Big 12 presenting co-champions to the committee.
[h=4]ESPN Radio[/h]
Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby tells Rece Davis about his reaction to Baylor and TCU being left out of the CFB Playoff, his conversations with the committee and more.

"If you're going to slogan around and say One True Champion, and all of a sudden you're going to go out the back door instead of the front?" Briles said. "Don't say one thing and do another. That's my whole deal. If they had said from the get-go we've got co-champs, head to head doesn't matter, I'm OK with it. I'm not obligated to him. I'm obligated to Baylor University and our football team. We just happen to be part of the Big 12 and we happen to be the champion two years in a row, so they need to be obligated to us because we're helping the Big 12's image in the nation."
Responded Bowlsby via text message about his interaction with Briles on the podium: "Our rule says they are co-champions. He doesn't want to accept that I cannot change the rule to suit his wishes."
On Big 12 media day in July, Bowlsby said if there was a tie for conference champion, they would go to tiebreakers, meaning head to head. On Sunday, Bowlsby told ESPN: "I went back and looked ... and just plain misspoke."
 
s--k said:
It does count, losing to VT. That and losing to WVU counts. It is all just one part of the equation.

For the record I had Baylor 4, I posted it here before the committee. So I am not an Ohio St fan, nor a Baylor hater.

I am just someone that can understand why the committee might have choose Ohio St over Baylor.

Ohio St played 10 bowl eligible teams and won 9 of them.

Baylor played 6 bowl eligible teams and won 5 of them.

Ohio St played 3 games vs teams that won atleast 9 games and won all 3 of them.

Baylor played 2 games vs teams that won atleast 9 games and won 2.

Back it up one.

Ohio State played 4 teams that went 8-4 and won all 4 of them.

Baylor played 3 teams that went 8-4 and won 3 of them.

Throw in margin of victory. Vs 8+ win teams Ohio St won by 47-22 avg for a 25ppg margin. Baylor won 49-33 in the 3 wins for a 16 ppg margin.

Ohio St beat two 10 win teams. Baylor beat one 11 win team.

Ohio St's loss is worse. Baylor's loss is better.

I think resume is close between these teams.

Again, by defending Ohio St at 4 it makes it seem like I think they should be 4. I don't. I am taking the other side of the argument, I don't know for fun maybe, but as long as these committee people didn't make the decisions for money or fanbase or TV reasons then I can understand why they came to that decision. I don't agree with it, but I can accept why they did it.
Click to expand...

My issue is with the process. Why wasn't Baylor or TCU penalised for all these things during the season. The committee put their cards on the table very week. A week ago they said that, based on the body of work to date, both Baylor and TCU are superior to OSU. What changed on the weekend? All 3 teams won. What did TCU do wrong to fall 3 spots? Was winning by 50 a bad thing?

We may have the 4 best teams there, I don't know but it's all subjective. People can't punch holes in Baylor while ignoring the fact the team they are pushing got rolled by 2 TD's to a team that scored 3 points against Wake Forest.

And to to see how flawed the process is then look no further then the Michigan State and Mississippi State example earlier. If the OSU win was so impressive that they moved into the Top 4, then why did Miss St jump Mich St?

and thanks for not using wins against ranked teams as a basis. Nothing worse then when people justify a subjective ranking by comparing it against the same subjective ranking.
 
TheGarfather said:
Its going to be hilarious when Baylor now starts scheduling a bunch of non-conference monsters, just in time for Briles to leave, the program to slide back to a sub-standard level and they will lose by 40 points to a bunch of ranked teams in years they go 3-9, haha
Click to expand...

. . . and teams will be punished for playing a terrible Baylor team. Lol!!!
 
Jimmydafreak said:
You could expand to 6 teams by giving the #1 and #2 seeds a 1st round bye.
Click to expand...

then the 6th causes controversy. I have no issue with who the top 6 teams are this year, it's not going to be this clear cut. What if Miss St were 1 loss? Imagine the SEC debates then

8 conference champs is the only rational solution I can see
 
Capone said:
Stop spewing your bullshit because you are 100% wrong. Just two weeks ago potential payoffs lines were released and FSU was -1 over both Baylor and TCU, Ohio State was -2.5 over both. Now that was before Barrett went out, but still don't believe they'd be a dog to either. After this weeks win, a pk would be about right
Click to expand...
I didn't see that, however if they were released 2 weeks ago then the Ohio St line would be stale as green bread given they are on their 3rd QB Capone, right?
 
Alan Tongue said:
then the 6th causes controversy. I have no issue with who the top 6 teams are this year, it's not going to be this clear cut. What if Miss St were 1 loss? Imagine the SEC debates then

8 conference champs is the only rational solution I can see
Click to expand...

I understand. The controversy will never go away just like it never goes away on who the most deserving 64 teams are in basketball.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Imagine clown's despair had Marshall not tripped. Whole thing is a joke. You know why I know TCU and Baylor and Marshall wouldn't beat Ohio St. and FSU and Alabama and Oregon? I have no reason to think that, not a good one. Neither do you.
Click to expand...
Also aint seen your ass since the I-Bowl in Shreveport right?

LSU(no homer shit) always seems to get an an interesting bowl for being an underachieving group....I look forward to the ND game. PLUS we want our homegrown 6' 7" OL from here back


I know I lknow I had an LSU post here LOL

Either way I look forward to it

Avy or any bet you want on it tip?:tiphat:
 
tipyerbartender said:
Marshall earned it. Michigan St could win a tournament.
Click to expand...
It is not a fucking tourney tip. The games should matter, especially if we are going to have a selection committee.

So we just play the conference schedule, then 'Alright boys, time for the tourney!'

No No No....I like March Madness, but I am always wondering what games matter....and then conference tourneys LOL

What did Texas v UK mean this weekend? NOTHING...and that sucks
 
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