***********NFL Draft In Game*************

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Philly trolling Dallas, trading up one spot before the Cowboys to pick a TE named Dallas the day Jason Witten retires.
 
Alan Tongue said:
Since 2010 there have been 12 RB's taken in the first round - Jahvid Best, Ryan Mathews, C.J. Spiller, Mark Ingram, David Wilson, Doug Martin, Trent Richardson, Melvin Gordon, Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott, Christian McCaffrey, Leonard Fournette. How many playoff games have they won between them? Super Bowls? Those 12 have a combined three 1st team All-Pro selections an 10 Pro Bowls. Six of these were top 10 picks, and what have they won?

Where were the RB's from the Eagles SB team drafted? And the Patriots? The two Championship losers - Minnesota and Jacksonville? And the draft position of the RB's from the same 4 teams the previous season - New England, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Green Bay?

LeGarrette Blount has been the RB in 3 of the pat 4 SB champs, and he went undrafted.

Of the last 10 SB winners the starting QB was drafted in the 1st round on 5 occasions (I could keep going back and see 11, 12 and 13 years back were all 1st rounders). I'd say a similar number would be on the losing team - Newton, Ryan

Simple regression analysis will show you the running game is over rated.

Yes, there has been QB busts, many shouldn't have been taken that high - Blaine Gabbert, Paxton Lynch, Tim Tebow, Brandon Weeden among others. But the reward for the QB pick paying off is much, much greater then the payoff for a successful RB
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This is not the same discussion now though. It was about who the GIANTS should have taken at TWO. Barkley, a generational talent known by anyone except those that dislike Penn St anything.

I have no problem if you are taking a basically sure fire QB in the top 5 picks. No one thinks any of the QBs in this draft are close to that. Couple that with the fact that you have one in Eli Manning already on your team I think I am getting to the point of why you take Barkley there. Yes, Eli is old and sucks, but in his defense he has had no running game whatsoever because searching for the next mid round RB like Paul Perkins hasn't worked, not to mention his o line blows.

How has Eli won super bowls anyway, good defense, very good o line and a run game.

So while its cute if you hit your lottery ticket, like being able to draft Peyton Manning or Tom Brady (in the 6th ROUND) if you don't you are basically retarding your franchise for the next 5 years if you spend such a premium pick on him (more relevance before rookie cap). Because you will keep feeling obligated that Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Heath Shuler, Tim Couch, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, David Carr etc is your guy.

Of course QB is the most important position but drafting one early, using an early first round pick on one is actually the riskiest business there is.

Nick Foles just won a Super Bowl. Tom Brady wins them every year. Russell Wilson wins a super bowl. Before that Joe Flacco, Big Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Brad Johnson Kurt Warner

Can you name the only QB not named Manning to win a super bowl who was drafted in the top 10 picks of the NFL Draft in the last 19 years? Trent Dilfer. And one could easily argue the Giants won both their Super Bowls because of defense and a strong running game and Peyton won his last title in spite of him (we all know this as Peyton had a noodle arm). What's not arguable is Baltimore won theirs in spite of Dilfer.
 
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scarf31 said:
My point about Barkley is not about whether his talent is necessarily there, it is that the value of the #2 pick in the draft is monumental and to waste it on a RB is absolutely stupid IMO.

And regarding Barkley's greatness at PSU, here is my response.

Is he going to be returning kicks in the NFL? The most idiotic and unimportant stat in evaluating college talent is "all purpose yards" JFC, that is ridiculous. Name me one stud RB returning kicks right now. Reggie Bush did it for a while, but I'll get to him in a minute. I think he is ENORMOUSLY overrrated and is now going to a team with no entire right side of the offensive line.

If this guy who was basically awarded the Heisman in September was so overwhelming, why exactly did he have only 5 100-yard rushing games last year (also 1 100-yard receiving game). I'm not buying because his return yards were so draining that he couldn't perform as a #1 RB vs. the likes of Indiana, Northwestern, Maryland, Rutgers and Pittsburgh.

But let's look at some other guys who were top 5 NFL RB picks...here is the list going back to 2000:

2017 - Jagauars - Fournette (undecided, but a good rookie year)
2016 - Cowboys - Zeke (and a HUGE part of this goes that stud Dallas O Line...don't forget Murray won the 14 Rushing title behind them like Zeke won his 16 title)
2012 - Browns - Trent Richardson (need I say more)
2008 - Raiders - Darren McFadden (another do-everything back)
2006 - Saints - Reggie Bush (most similar prototype to Barkley and had an insanely better college career)
2005 - Dolphins - Ronnie Brown
2005 - Bears - Cedric Benson
2005 - Bucs - Cadillac Williams
2001 - Chargers - Tomlinson (legit HOF'er)
2000 - Ravens - Jamal Lewis (probable HOF'er)

Here is a link to the NFL Draft Value chart http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php

Take a look at how valuable that #2 pick is and what teams need to give up in order to get there. And this morning on the radio, Gettleman was quoted as saying there wasn't any consideration to moving out of the #2 pick.

I think the kid is hugely overrated and now will be playing with a 37-year-old QB, no right side of an O-Line and a prima-donna WR playing under a new offensive system. Bad, bad fit.

And regarding the Jets pick, I've been on here before and saying "Anyone but Baker". I would have been fine with Darnold or Rosen. But Baker at 1 is another colossal fuck-up IMO, but the Browns gonna Browns.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying the #2 pick isn't valuable, quite the contrary which to me is why you should take BPA over a qb you aren't sold on. I don't disagree necessarily with trading down but what was the offer and where are we moving? Are you sold on any of these QBs this year to mortgage the next 5 years on? In the Giants case it could be more because whoever they take will sit behind Eli at least one year if not two. But instead you can take a generational talent to to build with. If it doesn't work you haven't retarded your franchise in the same fashion.

The comparison to Reggie Bush is laughable and only made because they decided to put Barkley on kick return this year and he housed a few. And please don't compare what Bush did with his o line and complimentary pieces of 5 stars compared to PSU and their horrible o line the last 3 years and playing with 40 scholarship players as freshman. And as I mentioned, their TE blocked as much as I did this year and the guys on the draft show were ripping him for it tonight when he was selected. Also, you must look at body of work over 3 years so we can't just omit 200 as a freshman at OSU or other games he dominated like vs USC and Washington in the big bowl games or against Michigan who at the time was top rated defense this year until he shredded them. Nobody brings up Bush because its silly, you have to be looking at Zeke, Gurley, Fournette, Marshall Faulk, Peterson. Gurley returned kicks, it shows his speed and athleticism and we weren't comparing him to Bush.

2017 Trubisky (who knows)
2016 Goff (undecided, horrible rookie year, good 2nd year) Wentz (great 2nd year, blew out knee, garbage back up won SB, system or QB?)2015-
2015 Winston (bone head, garbage) Mariota (decent)
2014 Bortles (if he wins a thing because of his stud RB and defense)
2013 NONE, EJ Manuel was first drafted at 16 lol
2012 Luck (has won nothing and may never be the same with shoulder issue) RG3 (lol)
2011 Newton (upper echelon qb because he runs)
2010 Bradford (horrible, always hurt)
2009 Stafford (will never win a bowl but solid) Mark Sanchez (butt fumbling)
2008 Ryan (upper echelon qb because of Shanahan for a year)
2007 JaMarcus Russell (350 pounds then and now)
2006 Vince Young (can't even pronounce names right on stage at draft)
2005 Alex Smith (mediocrity at its best)
2004 Eli Manning Phyllis Rivers
2003 Carson Palmer
2002 David Carr (lil bro taken in 2nd round showing him up) Joey Harrington (thx for making me relive this guy, pianist)
2001 Mike Vick (better at killing dogs)
2000 NONE (chad pennington first taken at 18)

To me this list is about as garbage as the one you put out and has a combined TWO super bowl rings by the same guy who is not upper echelon. And this list is triple the size so much more opportunity for success.
 
detroit187 said:
I'm not saying the #2 pick isn't valuable, quite the contrary which to me is why you should take BPA over a qb you aren't sold on. I don't disagree necessarily with trading down but what was the offer and where are we moving? Are you sold on any of these QBs this year to mortgage the next 5 years on? In the Giants case it could be more because whoever they take will sit behind Eli at least one year if not two. But instead you can take a generational talent to to build with. If it doesn't work you haven't retarded your franchise in the same fashion.

The comparison to Reggie Bush is laughable and only made because they decided to put Barkley on kick return this year and he housed a few. And please don't compare what Bush did with his o line and complimentary pieces of 5 stars compared to PSU and their horrible o line the last 3 years and playing with 40 scholarship players as freshman. And as I mentioned, their TE blocked as much as I did this year and the guys on the draft show were ripping him for it tonight when he was selected. Also, you must look at body of work over 3 years so we can't just omit 200 as a freshman at OSU or other games he dominated like vs USC and Washington in the big bowl games or against Michigan who at the time was top rated defense this year until he shredded them. Nobody brings up Bush because its silly, you have to be looking at Zeke, Gurley, Fournette, Marshall Faulk, Peterson. Gurley returned kicks, it shows his speed and athleticism and we weren't comparing him to Bush.

2017 Trubisky (who knows)
2016 Goff (undecided, horrible rookie year, good 2nd year) Wentz (great 2nd year, blew out knee, garbage back up won SB, system or QB?)2015-
2015 Winston (bone head, garbage) Mariota (decent)
2014 Bortles (if he wins a thing because of his stud RB and defense)
2013 NONE, EJ Manuel was first drafted at 16 lol
2012 Luck (has won nothing and may never be the same with shoulder issue) RG3 (lol)
2011 Newton (upper echelon qb because he runs)
2010 Bradford (horrible, always hurt)
2009 Stafford (will never win a bowl but solid) Mark Sanchez (butt fumbling)
2008 Ryan (upper echelon qb because of Shanahan for a year)
2007 JaMarcus Russell (350 pounds then and now)
2006 Vince Young (can't even pronounce names right on stage at draft)
2005 Alex Smith (mediocrity at its best)
2004 Eli Manning Phyllis Rivers
2003 Carson Palmer
2002 David Carr (lil bro taken in 2nd round showing him up) Joey Harrington (thx for making me relive this guy, pianist)
2001 Mike Vick (better at killing dogs)
2000 NONE (chad pennington first taken at 18)

To me this list is about as garbage as the one you put out and has a combined TWO super bowl rings by the same guy who is not upper echelon. And this list is triple the size so much more opportunity for success.
Click to expand...

If you think Barkley is a generational talent (as Gettleman called him), then there in nothing I can say to counter that other than you are entitled to your own opinion. It appears as if you think he’s a better player (college) than Reggie Bush and to that I once again am Speechless. But you are entitled to your opinion.

QB is the hardest position to draft in sports and that is why there are so many colossal failures there, because of the huge value.

This will be the last post I make about this because we clearly view the sport of football differently. No worries.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree (in general in life) and that’s the route I’m going to go here. I don’t even have the foggiest idea how someone could make the case you are making using the points you are using. Again, no problem agreeing to disagree. Enjoy the rest of the draft, sir.
 
detroit187 said:
I'm not saying the #2 pick isn't valuable, quite the contrary which to me is why you should take BPA over a qb you aren't sold on. I don't disagree necessarily with trading down but what was the offer and where are we moving? Are you sold on any of these QBs this year to mortgage the next 5 years on? In the Giants case it could be more because whoever they take will sit behind Eli at least one year if not two. But instead you can take a generational talent to to build with. If it doesn't work you haven't retarded your franchise in the same fashion.

The comparison to Reggie Bush is laughable and only made because they decided to put Barkley on kick return this year and he housed a few. And please don't compare what Bush did with his o line and complimentary pieces of 5 stars compared to PSU and their horrible o line the last 3 years and playing with 40 scholarship players as freshman. And as I mentioned, their TE blocked as much as I did this year and the guys on the draft show were ripping him for it tonight when he was selected. Also, you must look at body of work over 3 years so we can't just omit 200 as a freshman at OSU or other games he dominated like vs USC and Washington in the big bowl games or against Michigan who at the time was top rated defense this year until he shredded them. Nobody brings up Bush because its silly, you have to be looking at Zeke, Gurley, Fournette, Marshall Faulk, Peterson. Gurley returned kicks, it shows his speed and athleticism and we weren't comparing him to Bush.

2017 Trubisky (who knows)
2016 Goff (undecided, horrible rookie year, good 2nd year) Wentz (great 2nd year, blew out knee, garbage back up won SB, system or QB?)2015-
2015 Winston (bone head, garbage) Mariota (decent)
2014 Bortles (if he wins a thing because of his stud RB and defense)
2013 NONE, EJ Manuel was first drafted at 16 lol
2012 Luck (has won nothing and may never be the same with shoulder issue) RG3 (lol)
2011 Newton (upper echelon qb because he runs)
2010 Bradford (horrible, always hurt)
2009 Stafford (will never win a bowl but solid) Mark Sanchez (butt fumbling)
2008 Ryan (upper echelon qb because of Shanahan for a year)
2007 JaMarcus Russell (350 pounds then and now)
2006 Vince Young (can't even pronounce names right on stage at draft)
2005 Alex Smith (mediocrity at its best)
2004 Eli Manning Phyllis Rivers
2003 Carson Palmer
2002 David Carr (lil bro taken in 2nd round showing him up) Joey Harrington (thx for making me relive this guy, pianist)
2001 Mike Vick (better at killing dogs)
2000 NONE (chad pennington first taken at 18)

To me this list is about as garbage as the one you put out and has a combined TWO super bowl rings by the same guy who is not upper echelon. And this list is triple the size so much more opportunity for success.
Click to expand...

you are being extremely hard on qbs...it seems like every good qb you have a "reason" for like coach or system and every bad qb is on them. its ok to give credit: goff looks real good, wentz is a stud don't even start that system shit, luck was a great qb and he "never won anything" bc his team is run by pill heads, cam is great, Stafford I actually think you nailed, ryan is great not just bc of shanahan.

Phyllis rivers had me cracking up though. last thing; david carr got the rawest deal in nfl history. any qb in nfl history coulda gone to the Texans in that spot and not one would have succeeded.
 
Steelers did ok, not such a fan of Rudolph but to tag him up with JW won't hurt

Stud receiver and whoever got Miller should be happy too....have a feeling gonna regret Kirk over those two
 
scarf31 said:
If you think Barkley is a generational talent (as Gettleman called him), then there in nothing I can say to counter that other than you are entitled to your own opinion. It appears as if you think he’s a better player (college) than Reggie Bush and to that I once again am Speechless. But you are entitled to your opinion.

QB is the hardest position to draft in sports and that is why there are so many colossal failures there, because of the huge value.

This will be the last post I make about this because we clearly view the sport of football differently. No worries.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree (in general in life) and that’s the route I’m going to go here. I don’t even have the foggiest idea how someone could make the case you are making using the points you are using. Again, no problem agreeing to disagree. Enjoy the rest of the draft, sir.
Click to expand...

I think he is a better player in college than Reggie Bush, but not statistically maybe if stats are your thing. Do you know how to evaluate tape? Barkley is more Marshall Faulk/David Johnson, Bush never ran between tackles or had a lead role. Everyone knew those were huge ?'s going into the draft with Bush. They were built differently as well, as Barkley is all legs, Bush all arms. Barkley is a freak as his testing numbers show. Further, what a guy does in college career stat wise is not the proper evaluation for his professional potential. No, I would not put Bush in or near Barkley's class as far as NFL terms and projecting his pro career. If that were the case, Lamar Jackson should have been the #1 pick and any Heisman winner should be drafted first every year.

I don't think its unreasonable on any level to pass on a qb for BPA in the top 5, especially when you have a QB on the roster who is serviceable. And I have no idea understanding how someone could automatically pick a 50/50 bust QB at pick #2 when you have someone like Barkley there.Those teams that do don't win championships, proven in the list above. Again, trading down is not something I would have been opposed to and selecting Rosen (who I think is the best QB in this draft) but what were the offers? To move to 12? 15? Picks 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 weren't after a QB. Give me the safest pick in the draft over any of these Qbs, I have just a good a chance of finding one later if I'm confident in my organization developing them as again illustrated in the last 19 Super Bowl winners.

Jimmy Garrapolo will probably win a super bowl one day, when was he drafted? The Giants may have found the next Jimmy G in round 4 from Richmond. Probably as good a chance as the Browns found one at #1.

The top 5 NFL QBs with rings in the NFL
Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, none taken in top 10 of draft

Two ways to skin a cat, I just don't think its so obvious as to say you have to pick a qb in top 5, because if you miss you are F'd for almost a decade. (2-4 years developing, 2-4 more years of developing a new one if first one bust)
 
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D-Woww said:
you are being extremely hard on qbs...it seems like every good qb you have a "reason" for like coach or system and every bad qb is on them. its ok to give credit: goff looks real good, wentz is a stud don't even start that system shit, luck was a great qb and he "never won anything" bc his team is run by pill heads, cam is great, Stafford I actually think you nailed, ryan is great not just bc of shanahan.

Phyllis rivers had me cracking up though. last thing; david carr got the rawest deal in nfl history. any qb in nfl history coulda gone to the Texans in that spot and not one would have succeeded.
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Same shit he did with RB's. You think Zeke sucks, system RB? Fournette one good year.....keeping things relative. When Nick Foles wins a Super Bowl in that offense I think its fair to ask about the system. Nick Foles was everyone's dog shit before the injury to Wentz. But yes, I think Wentz is going to be great. I thought the same of Luck, who was a can't miss pick. There were no Luck's this year. Matt Ryan is a good NFL QB who had his one great MVP year under offensive genius Shanahan and regressed tremendously this year without him.
 
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Mods insulting poster. Insulting post liked by partner. Administrator wonders where all the users went. Partner wonders about contempt against mods. Hmm.
 
I now predict that one of two two-lettered users will come to take majority view or mod side and then other will follow
 
You guys wonder where the good content goes and then you insult intelligent independent thinkers. Its a fucking joke. I like this place thats why Im mad. Mods/partners need to be above personal insults especially when they claim to forbid it. @Administrator
 
Articles are so self-inflated. You are an attention whore...incredible how often you bump your own threads. Annoying you randomly have a thread for yourself.

Lmfao you putting down AT for not contributing...gtfo with that
 
VirginiaCavs said:
You guys wonder where the good content goes and then you insult intelligent independent thinkers. Its a fucking joke. I like this place thats why Im mad. Mods/partners need to be above personal insults especially when they claim to forbid it. @Administrator
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I think your articles are the most toutish bullshit here ever. Free picks, just thanks for those
 
B.A.R. said:
We'll have to see what Administrator thinks about Braves jacking off alone.
Click to expand...

Talking about the anti-psu rhetoric that you guys indulge in because you are so steeped in your own ignorant biases and how you use that to foster hostility towards users that you chase away... like how you bar always allowed anti-psu insults and liked them but shut me down for responding... you all have done this to many users and shouldn‘t wonder where so many have gone
 
VirginiaCavs said:
Talking about the anti-psu rhetoric that you guys indulge in because you are so steeped in your own ignorant biases and how you use that to foster hostility towards users that you chase away... like how you bar always allowed anti-psu insults and liked them but shut me down for responding... you all have done this to many users and shouldn‘t wonder where so many have gone
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Maybe it's because most posters can leave it in the thread while others (cough you cough) fly off the handle and go HAM with PM's to posters... JMO
 
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Couldn't be happier with the draft for the Cardinals though! Rosen and Kirk were recruited together...fun times ahead (hopefully)
 
KJ said:
Articles are so self-inflated. You are an attention whore...incredible how often you bump your own threads. Annoying you randomly have a thread for yourself.

Lmfao you putting down AT for not contributing...gtfo with that
Click to expand...

Im allowed to post in my threads. You do as well. In GD that was mods‘ choice. Not sure what you‘re referring to
 
KJ said:
I think your articles are the most toutish bullshit here ever. Free picks, just thanks for those
Click to expand...

Not selling anything...
Your welcome
I look forward to your next insight into the quality of sushi in a given state
 
Who else defends their picks with reasoning? you want this to just become a pick site like Blankets where you just listen to your old-timer cult brothers for advice and nobody newer says anything. Its funny how much of what you criticize me for including in your pm is behavior ive learned from mods to try to fit in here better. And they do appreciate good reasoning and write-ups for picks and often do it themselves...
 
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