MLB Offseason...
- Thread starter B.A.R.
- Start date
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
My initial contribution is I look forward to facing Pelfrey instead of Price.
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dudleysdad
Guest
waiting on the phillies to make a splash lol
:hang:
gsro
Give me the NHL, or give me death
AT&T is going to help his numbers come down a bit
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Chapman is not a starter. He's got one pitch. Maybe two. Hard and harder. He's been suited for the pen from the jump, and when he loses it, it won't be pretty.
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Gyno
Guest
Question I have is. Kenley in 8th Chapman 9th?
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Gyno
Guest
dodgers could use some power bats and a legit starter. Not sure why they signed Utley for another year. Guy bats .200 and is an easy out.
Dodgers problem last year was too many poor avg hitters. Utley, Rollins, Joc all were under .230 hitters, too many easy outs there.
Dodgers problem last year was too many poor avg hitters. Utley, Rollins, Joc all were under .230 hitters, too many easy outs there.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
How many pitches did Randy Johnson have? An overpowering fastball can make even average pitches look devastating by comparison.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Johnson had a great change-up. And he always started. He was a disaster in the minors, all over the place. Chapman's change-up is a rumor, you just go up there and swing.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Only Bob Feller gets guys out for nine innings throwing as hard as he can.
KJ
Bump. Set. Shuma!
Had one of the best sliders in history, naturally made better by the fastball
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Johnson wasn't Johnson until he threw this for strikes. C'mon, hugh.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
Well, that was sort of my point. Pitchers don't absolutely need to be able to get 4 pitches over for strikes anymore. 1, maybe 2, and a 3rd serviceable pitch is enough to get by when you throw that hard. And Chapman does have a pretty good slider from what I've seen.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
No, Johnson didn't become the pitcher he was until he got his fastball over for strikes. Do you not remember how wild he was when he first came up?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
You can't get it by some of these hitters 3X through without a few good pitches. Separates the men from the boys and the starters from the relievers.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I'll agree he threw strikes prior to getting any good.
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Lareux
Guest
Chapman only has 2 pitches though right now, if we're calling his change up a pitch. You don't need to get 4 pitches over for strikes, but you need to have the ability to throw 4 pitches, or at least 3. There's no starter out there who is successful with 1 pitch (outside of a knuckerballer), and you probably won't find too many with only 2 pitches. I mean, you'll see starters with 2 pitches they can really throw well, but they'll still have another pitch they throw....but you won't see really good starters that don't have the command of 3 pitches (with the ability to throw at least 4).
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Lareux
Guest
Johnson learned how to 'pitch' and not simply 'throw.' Along with that, came the ability to throw more than one pitch for a strike, and even he still had 3 effective pitches before he became who he was.
Two pitch ponies aren't cutting it as starters, or at least higher level starters. Especially when one of those pitches is really still a mystery, and the dude is dominant as a closer.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I love Chapman. I just would never start him. And I wouldn't be a fucking pussy and save him for a hypothetical situation either. I got a one-run lead in the 5th, my pitcher's gassed, bases loaded, Chapman's coming in.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
So you would have your best hitter hitting leadoff, but you wouldn't have your best pitcher starting?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
He's not my best pitcher, Hugh. He's tough to hit, when you haven't been hitting him. If I had started him, he'd be out of the game, and been hit by now.
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Lareux
Guest
I'd never start him either, wouldn't even think about it to be honest.
I agree about bringing in "closers" in more situation throughout a game. You can certainly 'save' a game before the 9th inning, even if it wouldn't officially be a save.
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Lareux
Guest
Agreed. He's not their best "pitcher," he's their best "thrower" (debatable most likely to begin with).
It's like calling your best power hitter your best hitter. Just because a dude hits 50 bombs doesn't make him the best hitter...the .220 average and the 150+ strikeouts would support that.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I'm still in full support of best hitters, descending order. I'll live with the lead-off double.
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Lareux
Guest
Unless your best hitter also has the most speed, I wouldn't do this. I know we've debated this before (love a good baseball strategy discussion), but you can do the same thing with a walk/single and a SB...and then have your best hitter at the plate with a guy in scoring position. You want your best hitters up with guys on base, which even after the first inning you may not be doing since you're 9 guy is going to be your worst hitter.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I don't want Babe Ruth watching the end of the game in the on deck circle.
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Gyno
Guest
Who would 8th and who would be 9th?
Chapman/Kenley?
Chapman/Kenley?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
It's a good one-two, and they're both kind of used to being flopped around. Good problem. I'd go with Chapman as the hammer.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
Admittedly, it's a bit of an unknown in that pitchers transitioning from closer to starter doesn't happen all that often but, at the same time, I don't see how you can automatically dismiss the possibility either. Fastball pitchers throw fastballs a large percentage of the time, be they starters or closers, and Chapman does have a slider, so as long as he can get himself a decent changeup, don't see why the notion is so out there.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
It would be exciting. Think his arm might fall off.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I just don't know why teams invest in relief. And yeah, yeah, I know the Royals made it work.
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Lareux
Guest
I don't think the notion is so far out there more than it just doesn't make much sense. You have to hope that he does master that 3rd pitch, as well as making sure he can throw his slider for strikes consistently. Why take away a known commodity for your team on the chance he picks it up and develops into a top notch starter? He'll be pitching every 5 days at that point, and will be able to directly effect essentially 1 game per week. In the closer role, he can have an effect on a handful of games a week for you...and you already know he's really, really good at it.
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Lareux
Guest
Agreed. It's more that teams just overspend ridiculously on a closer as opposed to trying to set up your 7th, 8th, and 9th innings with consistent guys who collectively cost a little bit more (if that) than this "premier" closer. Closers in baseball are overrated...that's just a fact.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Rivera had exactly one pitch, and he's going straight to the HOF.
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Lareux
Guest
He did, but that one pitch was the better than anyone else's "one pitch," possibly of all time (a bit dramatic, I'm sure).
He also had the ability to throw it differently if he needed to, which he did. That one pitch was more like 3 or 4 pitches in one if that makes sense.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
Exactly. So what do you have to lose by giving him a shot as a starter - that was his preference from what I remember, although he may have changed his tune. Just look at how easily the Yankees slotted in Andrew Miller (Andrew Miller?) as closer after Rivera.
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Lareux
Guest
Rivera was a starter at first as well. Imagine the Yanks trying to put him back in the rotation after a couple season of being their closer. We would have missed quite a career.
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Lareux
Guest
But there are "elite" guys at the position hugh. Closers being overrated is more because of the foolish money teams commit to them, and them not being able to distinguish which ones are actually worth the money. Not all closers are overrated...very, very few are not, but the point was more league wide and the position in general.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
It's three outs. It's not rocket science. If I were an MLB GM/manager, I'd hang my hat on it. I'd make it fun. Today's closer.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Cody Allen is already a little punk. He's two fatties away from the 5th inning.
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Lareux
Guest
Unless you had a dude like Rivera, Hoffman, Nathan (in his prime), I would agree with this a bunch. Throw your "closer" out there in the 6th/7th when you NEED an out, and let the other guys pitch the 9th. Saves do not have to occur in the 9th inning, regardless of what the stat tells us. Not to mention, getting a save in MLB is a joke more often than not. Coming into a 3 run game with no one on base shouldn't be a save. Neither should coming in to get 1 out with a couple guys on base and a 4 run lead...that is just hilarious. All those padded save stats have done is drive up the cost of "closers" to the evidently clueless teams who can't see through it.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
How critical is having an 'elite' closer to your team's overall success and failure though. I'd say the bullpen as a whole is more important than one guy at the back end (unless it's someone like Fernando Rodney or John Axford).
