Throwback420
Diehard L.A. fan
5-20 ?
Kobe or LeBron?
- Thread starter Killa
- Start date
Throwback420
Diehard L.A. fan
how the fuck did Kobe 1 up king in votes ? last I seen Kobe was down like more than 5 lol
H.R. Pufnstuf
Pretty much a regular
Bron 5/20 vs Lakers ... I bet a couple of you want to change your vote right about now
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Billivy
Guest
i dont feel that's a fair comparison tho...and nothing to do with your poll either....
that's not all things being equal...certain players are a better fit in certain organizations than others...in this case, Lebron's all around game is a necessity for prolonged success...
you said all things being equal....last few minutes of a game...basically who do you want taking the big shots....
the real poll should be kobe or jordan...
b/c until james wins a few championships...he's a non factor in this discussion IMO...
Kobe is just as unstoppable offensively...he draws contact better than anybody on the planet and hits the key shots with more consistancy than any current player. (Wade, Pierce, Horry, these guys have done it in spurts)...Kobe has been hitting game winners for a decade!
Worm1120
An apple a day keeps the bookie away
this post is so absurd....Kobe vs Lebron is not an argument??? I guess it will be after he wins the title this year then
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Billivy
Guest
the poll is talking about who i want with 6 minutes left in a game 7 of the finals...are you fucking high? James has never been on that stage...why would this be up for discussion? Kobe has been there, done that, and is by all sources considered the most "clutch" big time player on the planet...how can one argue that? Lebron hasn't ever been there yet...and i don't think anybody disagrees that kobe closes out big games better...in the past I've seen lebron pass it off for the final shot, i've seen him brick a lot of potential buzzer beating shots including huge ones in game 7 of the eastern conference championship last year. I've seen kobe hit 35fter buzzer beaters in nba finals games...
this is up for debate if you talk about an entire game, but the last 6 minutes??
and if we're talking a head to head matchup...James would be on Kobe allllll game...which is gonna take a HUGE toll on him should they find themselves in a final together....Kobe will have walton and odem to share the work on defense
this is up for debate if you talk about an entire game, but the last 6 minutes??
and if we're talking a head to head matchup...James would be on Kobe allllll game...which is gonna take a HUGE toll on him should they find themselves in a final together....Kobe will have walton and odem to share the work on defense
Well, I'm a source who disagrees. So it's definitely not 'all sources.'
I do. Strongly. To suggest Kobe closes games better than LeBron is to have not watched the NBA for the past couple seasons.
Really? That's 10 feet shy of half-court. Link please.
Good luck Luke!
JPicks
Pretty much a regular
I'm fine with somebody saying they'd rather have Kobe, but the stats don't support him being so clutch down the stretch.
http://cappingthegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76586
http://cappingthegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76586
SF_capper
CTG addict
How is it set that kobe is the better defender? I can see the 1st team all defense, which btw is an overrated and often unthought of stat. I think a prime example of his defensive abilities was the past NBA finals: Boston has 2 All-stars at the wing position. Yet, the Lakers "brilliant" defensive decision was to have Kobe defend Rajon Rondo? I can see the strategy in that Kobe can then coast on D and help out while leaving Rondo open jump shots, but if Kobe was the best defender on the team, let alone a top wing defender in the league, wouldn't you have him lock down an iso player like pierce and have someone else play a gimmick defense to help out off of Rondo? If Kobe was such a great defender, why is Ariza so valuable to the Lakers as a wing defender- to defend the best player on the other team. Thats essentially his main assignment. I don't trust the argument of letting Kobe rest up for offense because 1) most coaches will agree that defense > offense 2) do you really need to make tactics to help the best professional athlete in the league not get tired
another argument: Kobe has never lead his team to win a ship'. I don't think his 3 championships should be the basis of him over Lebron. All 3 of his championships, it was Shaq's team and Shaq's MVP. Just because players have championships does not make them great. Being a role player of a championship team does not make you a better player. This is why many ignore the argument for Jordan having Pippen, because all of Jordan's championships were his team, his Finals MVP no question. If Kobe had won the ship last season, then people could make the argument for Kobe, but he didn't.
another argument: Kobe has never lead his team to win a ship'. I don't think his 3 championships should be the basis of him over Lebron. All 3 of his championships, it was Shaq's team and Shaq's MVP. Just because players have championships does not make them great. Being a role player of a championship team does not make you a better player. This is why many ignore the argument for Jordan having Pippen, because all of Jordan's championships were his team, his Finals MVP no question. If Kobe had won the ship last season, then people could make the argument for Kobe, but he didn't.
SF_capper
CTG addict
exactly
also, I'm reading above that people are saying Kobe is better "even Lebron says so". that is not an argument either. He is not going to say he's the best- he is showing kobe respect and just answering to the media the politically correct way. Before Lebron came into the league Kobe was crowned the best player in the league. Kobe embarced it and Lebron agreed with it. Now, when Lebron is asked about it, he cannot say "yea, 2 seasons ago Kobe was the best, but now I've improvd my game and should be considered the best right now" of course not. he has to say "yea, Kobe is amazing. I'm nowhere near his level right now and I look up to him as a player, blah blah blah." Hell even Kobe can't admit that his crown is off even if he knows it is. When asked if he is ready to hand down his crown of being the best in the league he can't answer "yea, I was the best, but Lebron is getting so much better and probably better than me now." Its all for political correctness. Once Lebron gets 3 MVPs, championships, and Finals MVPs, Kobe will be politically correct to respond "there's a reason he's MVP. Lebron is just playing at a almost unstoppable level right now.. blah blah blah"
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
I still say Tim duncan is the unappreciated guy of the last decade. He does it all and has done it with class. Championships , defense , rebounding , shooting , passing , leading etc etc etc ....
but he never gets mentioned because either he isn't flashy enough , doesnt draw enough attention to himself or because no one wants to give forwards and centers any love anymore...... it's a guards game now. Which is another thing that makes him impressive .... the rules have been shifted in professional basketball to enable guards to succeed more.... and by default lowers the value of the big man.
yes that was a tangent.
so to add ... i dont think lebron has been alleged of any major felonies yet .. so you have to factor that in.
but he never gets mentioned because either he isn't flashy enough , doesnt draw enough attention to himself or because no one wants to give forwards and centers any love anymore...... it's a guards game now. Which is another thing that makes him impressive .... the rules have been shifted in professional basketball to enable guards to succeed more.... and by default lowers the value of the big man.
yes that was a tangent.
so to add ... i dont think lebron has been alleged of any major felonies yet .. so you have to factor that in.
MeasyMoney
Give me Football or give me death
kobe's D is murderous compared to lebrons. ridiculous that you really think lebron shuts people down the way kobe does.
and after all this bullshit being said, i didnt realize this poll was about having the ball in the last few minutes between these two...well when it had to be done in the olympics with both these players on the court, the ball still went to the better player, Kobe
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Billivy
Guest
game one of the nba finals a few years ago....maybe it was short of 35 ft...it was welll behind the line...and it was with time expiring...
with "all things being equal"...you must realize that NBA Finals are a different animal than regular season and even the first three rounds of the post season.
Defense wins championships, along with clutch jump shooting...are we AT LEAST in agreement that Kobe has a better jump shot? or are your idiot sentimentalities blinding you from that fact as well?...I know you didn't watch the Lakers/Cavs game a few days ago, please do so...it's indicative of the amount of success I believe Lebron will have in the NBA finals getting to the basket if he cant hit the 15-20 ft jumpers with superstar like precision (against either LA or San Antonio). Aside from that fact is of course their FT percentage differential...over 10%...that is of course huge as well IMO
Kobe is more dangerous with the ball, he's a tactician...he can get his shot off from anywhere with terrific defense and hit the shot with the game on the line with more accuracy than any player I've seen in my lifetime (of course you know that I didn't watch a lot of NBA when Jordan was in his prime)...
here's a good question to ask...
7 seconds left...both players with the ball at the top of the key...Lakers/Spurs....game one and three of the NBA finals (both home court)...down two...enough time to drive, enough time to see a player making a good cut and getting a game winning assist, and of course enough time to hit a game tying or game winning jumper in the other's face. Who do you want with the ball?
for me? I look at it from a more analytical perspective....
Lebron hitting a three pointer to win the game is a non issue in my mind...I don't think he takes that shot unless absolutely necessary. He'll make a move to the basket before he would have to force up a three anyways. If he gets a good screen or even a great step (which i concede he has) he could get around Kobe, and of course then help comes from both sides and James either draws the foul...puts up a high percentage short range shot/layup/dunk...or makes a high percentage pass to an open cutter....
breaking it down in percentages....
25% of the time, great defense...and Lebron puts up a less than .500 mid-long range jump shot with Kobe in his face...(hence about 11% percent of the time he goes to OT and 14% of the time they lose right there)
50% of the time he gets to the basket and gets up a 90% shot attempt (short jumper/layup/dunk) (hence 45% of the time they go to OT and 5% of the time they lose right there)
10% of the time he gets the bucket and goes to the line to hit a game winning FT at a .75% clip (hence 7.5 percent of the time they win the game right there and 2.5% of the time they go to OT)
5% of the time he passes the ball off to a wide open jump shot at the wing behind the arc and i'll go with .400 (generous with his shooters and the situation they're in)
(hence 3% of the time they lose and 2% of the time they win right there)
and 10% of the time he passes to an open cutter who puts up a 90% shot/layup/dunk (hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose...I know i'm leaving out a foul possibillity...but i'm just adding that in the 9% of the time they go to OT AGAIN being generous) (hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose right there)
breakdown:
67.5% of the time they go to OT
23% of the time they lose right there
9.5% of the time they win right there
...i'll do kobe's in the next one
with "all things being equal"...you must realize that NBA Finals are a different animal than regular season and even the first three rounds of the post season.
Defense wins championships, along with clutch jump shooting...are we AT LEAST in agreement that Kobe has a better jump shot? or are your idiot sentimentalities blinding you from that fact as well?...I know you didn't watch the Lakers/Cavs game a few days ago, please do so...it's indicative of the amount of success I believe Lebron will have in the NBA finals getting to the basket if he cant hit the 15-20 ft jumpers with superstar like precision (against either LA or San Antonio). Aside from that fact is of course their FT percentage differential...over 10%...that is of course huge as well IMO
Kobe is more dangerous with the ball, he's a tactician...he can get his shot off from anywhere with terrific defense and hit the shot with the game on the line with more accuracy than any player I've seen in my lifetime (of course you know that I didn't watch a lot of NBA when Jordan was in his prime)...
here's a good question to ask...
7 seconds left...both players with the ball at the top of the key...Lakers/Spurs....game one and three of the NBA finals (both home court)...down two...enough time to drive, enough time to see a player making a good cut and getting a game winning assist, and of course enough time to hit a game tying or game winning jumper in the other's face. Who do you want with the ball?
for me? I look at it from a more analytical perspective....
Lebron hitting a three pointer to win the game is a non issue in my mind...I don't think he takes that shot unless absolutely necessary. He'll make a move to the basket before he would have to force up a three anyways. If he gets a good screen or even a great step (which i concede he has) he could get around Kobe, and of course then help comes from both sides and James either draws the foul...puts up a high percentage short range shot/layup/dunk...or makes a high percentage pass to an open cutter....
breaking it down in percentages....
25% of the time, great defense...and Lebron puts up a less than .500 mid-long range jump shot with Kobe in his face...(hence about 11% percent of the time he goes to OT and 14% of the time they lose right there)
50% of the time he gets to the basket and gets up a 90% shot attempt (short jumper/layup/dunk) (hence 45% of the time they go to OT and 5% of the time they lose right there)
10% of the time he gets the bucket and goes to the line to hit a game winning FT at a .75% clip (hence 7.5 percent of the time they win the game right there and 2.5% of the time they go to OT)
5% of the time he passes the ball off to a wide open jump shot at the wing behind the arc and i'll go with .400 (generous with his shooters and the situation they're in)
(hence 3% of the time they lose and 2% of the time they win right there)
and 10% of the time he passes to an open cutter who puts up a 90% shot/layup/dunk (hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose...I know i'm leaving out a foul possibillity...but i'm just adding that in the 9% of the time they go to OT AGAIN being generous) (hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose right there)
breakdown:
67.5% of the time they go to OT
23% of the time they lose right there
9.5% of the time they win right there
...i'll do kobe's in the next one
H.R. Pufnstuf
Pretty much a regular
LOL. Now I know you're just fucking with all of us...
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Billivy
Guest
Kobe is a different animal...
he's not going to move to the basket and react to the defense....he's going to hold the ball for a second...plan it out, and go with his gut...Hence I'll be putting a three pointer in my breakdown for him...he shoots shots like that with 10000000 more confidence as he should....Lebron is less than 30% behind the arc and Kobe is well above that and seemingly WAYYY above that with the game on the line...
25% of the time I say he takes a three pointer and I'm saying at a .600 clip (going by his finals performances of the past and calculating with more accuracy than the speculation I am forced to come up with on James)
(hence 15% of the time the Lakers win the game right there and 10% of the time they lose the game right there...again he COULD be fouled...so I'm gonna just add that into the .600 of his shooting percentage in that situation)
50% of the time he's going to step, create shooting space and get two points either from a foul or a made jumper about .400% of the time (hence 40% of the time they go to OT and 10% of the time they lose right there)
10% of the time he's going to get a step and take it all the way to the basket and get off a 90% short range jumper/layup/dunk (i'm including him getting to the line and making both free throws in the 90%) (hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose right there)
5% of the time he gets an and one and will NEVER miss that FT (hence 5% of the time they win the game right there and 0% of the time they lose the game from that position)...(obviously not NEVER...but not enough to yield a percentage point, b/c i say he makes that FT over 90% of the time which is the minimum required to round to the full 5%)
10% of the time he passes, and if HE passes the ball it's to a wide open layup b/c there's no chance that he's going to pass if it's not a guaranteed bucket...HOWEVER i'll yield a 1% chance that his pass goes bad or isn't caught or is just wasted by a pathetic shot attempt...(hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose right there)
breakdown:
20% of the time they win the game right there
22% of the time they lose the game right there
58% of the time they go to OT
what does this mean? Kobe's gonna win 11.5% more games than James if they split OTs
splitting OTs is fair i think if both teams have home court...
this obviously subjective...i haven't considered EVERY variable or EVERY factor...but i think this is a faily complete analysis of the way I think about the question I've proposed.
he's not going to move to the basket and react to the defense....he's going to hold the ball for a second...plan it out, and go with his gut...Hence I'll be putting a three pointer in my breakdown for him...he shoots shots like that with 10000000 more confidence as he should....Lebron is less than 30% behind the arc and Kobe is well above that and seemingly WAYYY above that with the game on the line...
25% of the time I say he takes a three pointer and I'm saying at a .600 clip (going by his finals performances of the past and calculating with more accuracy than the speculation I am forced to come up with on James)
(hence 15% of the time the Lakers win the game right there and 10% of the time they lose the game right there...again he COULD be fouled...so I'm gonna just add that into the .600 of his shooting percentage in that situation)
50% of the time he's going to step, create shooting space and get two points either from a foul or a made jumper about .400% of the time (hence 40% of the time they go to OT and 10% of the time they lose right there)
10% of the time he's going to get a step and take it all the way to the basket and get off a 90% short range jumper/layup/dunk (i'm including him getting to the line and making both free throws in the 90%) (hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose right there)
5% of the time he gets an and one and will NEVER miss that FT (hence 5% of the time they win the game right there and 0% of the time they lose the game from that position)...(obviously not NEVER...but not enough to yield a percentage point, b/c i say he makes that FT over 90% of the time which is the minimum required to round to the full 5%)
10% of the time he passes, and if HE passes the ball it's to a wide open layup b/c there's no chance that he's going to pass if it's not a guaranteed bucket...HOWEVER i'll yield a 1% chance that his pass goes bad or isn't caught or is just wasted by a pathetic shot attempt...(hence 9% of the time they go to OT and 1% of the time they lose right there)
breakdown:
20% of the time they win the game right there
22% of the time they lose the game right there
58% of the time they go to OT
what does this mean? Kobe's gonna win 11.5% more games than James if they split OTs
splitting OTs is fair i think if both teams have home court...
this obviously subjective...i haven't considered EVERY variable or EVERY factor...but i think this is a faily complete analysis of the way I think about the question I've proposed.
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Billivy
Guest
it's 6:19 AM and I haven't been to sleep yet AGAIN...this girl is killing me...yet another night I was forced to postpone my Top Chef thread...I'm off of work on Tuesday tho so I'll be posting it before Wednesday's episode 
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Billivy
Guest
with google chrome I cant copy and paste links and I'm too tired...youtube Kobe vs Detriot in the finals....the shot wasn't 35 ft...it doesnt matter..it was way behind the line....it was with time expiring and it was sick...
oo and if you'd like to play THAT game...
I will provide you with 2 links to game winning shots for every one you can provide from James...and I will go back only as far as James has been in the league...
why? b/c altho James is a little better at this now....he played like a pussy in the past and passed off the final shot in meaningful games to bad players simply b/c they were open...
winners want the ball, Kobe doesn't pass off the final shot...and if he does, it's b/c someones under the basket for a layup drill...
oo and if you'd like to play THAT game...
I will provide you with 2 links to game winning shots for every one you can provide from James...and I will go back only as far as James has been in the league...
why? b/c altho James is a little better at this now....he played like a pussy in the past and passed off the final shot in meaningful games to bad players simply b/c they were open...
winners want the ball, Kobe doesn't pass off the final shot...and if he does, it's b/c someones under the basket for a layup drill...
SF_capper
CTG addict
I don't think the question was who do you want with 10 seconds left/who's the most clutch/ whose made the most clutch shots. Its as who's the better player which doesn't have much to do with who I'd rather have with the ball for a last shot. I'd rather have sam cassel and robert horry with 2 seconds left inbounding the ball but that doesn't make them better.
We can all agree Kobe is a better jump shooter and better from the line. But again we're not asking who plays most like Jordan. they have different games, Kobe more jump shot fadeaway jordanesque and lebron more of his own style because he's the only player alive to ever be so physically dominant.
this is probably not a good way to measure but comparing different aspects of a basketball player:
rebounding: lebron (but not fair cuz of size)
passing: lebron
defense: arguable although I don't think so
scoring: arguable again- I'm not talking about shooting/driving/FT/fadeaway buzzer beaters- they're all just types of ways to score- and I'd say lebron can score at will while kobe can score more when he's hot, and less when he's not
leadership: lebron
We can all agree Kobe is a better jump shooter and better from the line. But again we're not asking who plays most like Jordan. they have different games, Kobe more jump shot fadeaway jordanesque and lebron more of his own style because he's the only player alive to ever be so physically dominant.
this is probably not a good way to measure but comparing different aspects of a basketball player:
rebounding: lebron (but not fair cuz of size)
passing: lebron
defense: arguable although I don't think so
scoring: arguable again- I'm not talking about shooting/driving/FT/fadeaway buzzer beaters- they're all just types of ways to score- and I'd say lebron can score at will while kobe can score more when he's hot, and less when he's not
leadership: lebron
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Billivy
Guest
btw, Kobe has a higher FG percentage lifetime...and a higher FG percentage in the post season...a higher FT percentage lifetime and a higher FT percentage in the post season....a higher pt FG percentage lifetime and a higher 3pt in the post season...
James's additional 2 rebounds and 2 assists are impressive, but both mean very little to me when you're posing that question, who would i rather have with 6 minutes to go...he also averages another few minutes per game so that will of course augment his stats a bit...(kobe's older and cant play 44 minutes per anymore)...the numbers get more impressive if I go to the meat of Kobe's stats where he DOES in fact average that kind of minutes per game...i've looked it all up...
but between the lines...Kobe's "big game on the line" FG % is much much higher, and that isn't subject to change in the near future....
and about defense...WOW...that's a hell of a statement...
i didn't look this up and I think i need SOME sleep tonight so I'll let someone else do this....how many times was Kobe elected 1st team defense?
James's additional 2 rebounds and 2 assists are impressive, but both mean very little to me when you're posing that question, who would i rather have with 6 minutes to go...he also averages another few minutes per game so that will of course augment his stats a bit...(kobe's older and cant play 44 minutes per anymore)...the numbers get more impressive if I go to the meat of Kobe's stats where he DOES in fact average that kind of minutes per game...i've looked it all up...
but between the lines...Kobe's "big game on the line" FG % is much much higher, and that isn't subject to change in the near future....
and about defense...WOW...that's a hell of a statement...
i didn't look this up and I think i need SOME sleep tonight so I'll let someone else do this....how many times was Kobe elected 1st team defense?
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Billivy
Guest
I've had respect for your opinion for years...but yah...not so much anymore...
for the positions they play...do strict ratios of league averages if you want a fair comparison...
Kobe averages 5 rebounds a game...how does that compare to the league average for his position?
Kobe/Lebron's assist and leadership stats are very subjective and in my mind they both excel in this category to the point where theres no point in even comparing...
scoring? same thing...talking about pure scoring...they have different styles but I mean both are at a level where it simply doesn't make sense to try and compare them...
but what you just said, about how it doesnt matter who you'd rather have at the end of a game, or with a few seconds left...that's just plain silly...
that's ALL that matters in my book sir...I'm a fan of balls and clutch shooting...not a fan of a stat sheet...I didn't tune in to see Lebron grab his 10th rebound on a meaningless play in the end of the Knicks game for a triple double @ MSG....
I tune in for the chance of seeing something miraculous...seeing the best players at the top of their games, making the big shot when it counts...
When Tiger was in the midst of his huge run back in 2000-2001....I had more fun watching him come back from 7 behind with 7 to play on Matt Gogel while holing wedges from the fairway to keep his 5 tournament winning streak alive than I did watching him win the US open by 15....
it's those special moments that define a sport....Jordan had that quality...Kobe has that quality...the jury is still out on James...we'll see how he does with the game on the line on the biggest stage
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Billivy
Guest
o and for the record...i'd rather have kobe bryant than san cassel or robert fucking horry with 2 seconds left anyday...
that list was just done on ESPN...i dont remember the order anymore...but i think it went...
1)Jordan
2)Larry
3)?????
4)Bryant
5)Reggie
and everybody in the room seemed to agree with that list...
ooo and btw justin, I love ya...you know I do...but you sir are not a "source", you are a "fan"...you do not get paid for your insight on NBA...you are not on TV...you have never played basketball in college or even highschool....how can you claim to be a "source"? LMAO (keep in mind, I don't either...nobody on this site can, unless someone played D1 basketball for four years at some university...then I'd consider him as a "source")
that list was just done on ESPN...i dont remember the order anymore...but i think it went...
1)Jordan
2)Larry
3)?????
4)Bryant
5)Reggie
and everybody in the room seemed to agree with that list...
ooo and btw justin, I love ya...you know I do...but you sir are not a "source", you are a "fan"...you do not get paid for your insight on NBA...you are not on TV...you have never played basketball in college or even highschool....how can you claim to be a "source"? LMAO (keep in mind, I don't either...nobody on this site can, unless someone played D1 basketball for four years at some university...then I'd consider him as a "source")
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Billivy
Guest
I WILL consider the consensus of this forum a "source" for it's overall wealth of knowledge however...and as a "source" they've picked Kobe so far 49-42
t-dot
Pretty much a regular
I took kobe and Ill take him again. Mind you, I havent seen alot of Bron games. But something irked me in the Cavs/lakers game. When he wasnt hitting his jumpers, he would be almost afraid to take one or he would just try to pass off to someone else. In one instance in the 4th he passed up attacking the rim to pass off to Varejo for a mid range jumper. Varejo instead of a lay-up!
That is definitely not the type of mindset i would like in my best player.
If picking today, I still take Kobe.
If picking in 10 years, I might take the 34 year old bron.
That is definitely not the type of mindset i would like in my best player.
If picking today, I still take Kobe.
If picking in 10 years, I might take the 34 year old bron.
Oddest Person Currently in Existence aka billivy-
Your first post is just white noise with a bunch of arbitrary numbers, and no living human could possibly have any idea what you're talking about.
Your second post is about Top Chef and sleep.
The premise of your third post is demolished by the link provided by JPicks on game-winners. If your argument is that Kobe was a better clutch player three or four years ago, we're in agreement, but that's not the question under debate.
Your fourth post comes equipped with two provably false assertions:
No, he doesn't.
No, it's not. Where are you getting this stuff from?
On to your fifth post:
Two questions arise here. First, how can any stat be subjective? Second, what is a 'leadership stat?'
Your sixth post is about some mysterious ESPN list, along with a reaffirmation of your previous blatant and unsupported falsehood that 'all sources agree' on Kobe's superiority, and declaration that, in order for any member of this site to be considered a 'source' on NBA matters according to billivy, one must have played D1 basketball for no less than four years.
Your seventh post is a bizarre and arbitrary assertion that, while no single one among us who lacks the required four years of D1 experience may be considered a source on NBA matters by billivy, 92 of us who lack the required four years of D1 experience, when put together, may indeed be considered just such a source.
0 for 7.
:shake:
Your first post is just white noise with a bunch of arbitrary numbers, and no living human could possibly have any idea what you're talking about.
Your second post is about Top Chef and sleep.
The premise of your third post is demolished by the link provided by JPicks on game-winners. If your argument is that Kobe was a better clutch player three or four years ago, we're in agreement, but that's not the question under debate.
Your fourth post comes equipped with two provably false assertions:
No, he doesn't.
No, it's not. Where are you getting this stuff from?
On to your fifth post:
Two questions arise here. First, how can any stat be subjective? Second, what is a 'leadership stat?'
Your sixth post is about some mysterious ESPN list, along with a reaffirmation of your previous blatant and unsupported falsehood that 'all sources agree' on Kobe's superiority, and declaration that, in order for any member of this site to be considered a 'source' on NBA matters according to billivy, one must have played D1 basketball for no less than four years.
Your seventh post is a bizarre and arbitrary assertion that, while no single one among us who lacks the required four years of D1 experience may be considered a source on NBA matters by billivy, 92 of us who lack the required four years of D1 experience, when put together, may indeed be considered just such a source.
0 for 7.
:shake:
broadwayjoe
May 5Dimes MLB 2nd place
:36_11_6::36_11_6:
SF_capper
CTG addict
yea my fault, he wasn't a role player, but he wasn't the best player on those teams, and no one can argue it otherwise
The titles are not relevant in this context. Unless one of you wishes to argue that, if paired with the most dominant center since Wilt Chamberlain, LeBron would not also have three titles, then by all means.
Actually, you would be right, because he wouldn't have three. He would have more.
Actually, you would be right, because he wouldn't have three. He would have more.
B
Billivy
Guest
one provable falsehood...i looked up these stats when i was deliriously tired...i was looking at kobe's fg percentage lifetime in the all star game....kobe is one percentage behind lebron lifetime in FG percentage...however with Lebron's layups and dunks...i feel that the proximity of these two stats is just as illustrative...
assists are subjective b/c lebron makes more attemts per game and turns the ball over 20% of the time more than Kobe does in his carear....
game on the line FG percentage...i dont know any stats on that subject...i'm basically going on my own perception, however I seriously seriously doubt that Lebron makes more game winning FGs per situation than Kobe does....I havent looked up stats but would be wiling to put a lot of money on it...
jpicks made a thread about game winners and in lebrons short carear he's come up with a larger list or a more impressive list?
that's literally impossible b/c A: kobe has more simply due to the fact that he's been in the league more longer...B: b/c Lebron up until two years ago was known as someone who would pass the ball off with the game on the line...c: HAS NEVER BEEN IN AN NBA FINAL!!!!....wtf does regular season even matter? my god....nothing...I think you can ask Greg Popovitch and the Spurs about what they think about the regular season!
assists are subjective b/c lebron makes more attemts per game and turns the ball over 20% of the time more than Kobe does in his carear....
game on the line FG percentage...i dont know any stats on that subject...i'm basically going on my own perception, however I seriously seriously doubt that Lebron makes more game winning FGs per situation than Kobe does....I havent looked up stats but would be wiling to put a lot of money on it...
jpicks made a thread about game winners and in lebrons short carear he's come up with a larger list or a more impressive list?
that's literally impossible b/c A: kobe has more simply due to the fact that he's been in the league more longer...B: b/c Lebron up until two years ago was known as someone who would pass the ball off with the game on the line...c: HAS NEVER BEEN IN AN NBA FINAL!!!!....wtf does regular season even matter? my god....nothing...I think you can ask Greg Popovitch and the Spurs about what they think about the regular season!
broadwayjoe
May 5Dimes MLB 2nd place
^ you didn't say NUMBER of game winners---you said fg percentage in clutch situations (which is defined as a very reasonable criteria), and that is a measurable stat in which kobe falls short of lebron.
and if you say assists are subjective because they don't account for more turnovers for lebron, just use assist to turnover ratio, which kobe falls short of lebron.
not only does he have a better fg %( i know, just because he gets more layups, which i still don't understand how that gets turned around into a bad thing---because he takes more high-percentage shots it should skew the stat?---well, whatever), but over the last two seasons he's had more rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists per game. no idea how this is still a discussion. i've lost a lot of respect for this board in this poll.
and if you say assists are subjective because they don't account for more turnovers for lebron, just use assist to turnover ratio, which kobe falls short of lebron.
not only does he have a better fg %( i know, just because he gets more layups, which i still don't understand how that gets turned around into a bad thing---because he takes more high-percentage shots it should skew the stat?---well, whatever), but over the last two seasons he's had more rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists per game. no idea how this is still a discussion. i've lost a lot of respect for this board in this poll.
broadwayjoe
May 5Dimes MLB 2nd place
btw...has nothing to do with the discussion but kobe didn't have the flu on sunday...he was seen by several people out saturday night on w 6th getting hammered. he was incredibly hungover lol
horses
Brady licks Marino's knob
but over the last two seasons he's had more rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists per game.
Undeniable; again, I repeat...the question was 'Who would you rather have for ONE BIG GAME to win??? The answer to that question has nothing to do with two year long season averages; it has everything to do with gut reaction and what you see on the court from a qualitative standpoint. Nothing to do with stats at all...
And i agree...you can't use the Lakers 3 titles as validation; that has nothing to do with the question either.
The answer is still Kobe...
Broadway...I'm willing to bet you SEE LeBron play 3X as much as you see Kobe play.
Undeniable; again, I repeat...the question was 'Who would you rather have for ONE BIG GAME to win??? The answer to that question has nothing to do with two year long season averages; it has everything to do with gut reaction and what you see on the court from a qualitative standpoint. Nothing to do with stats at all...
And i agree...you can't use the Lakers 3 titles as validation; that has nothing to do with the question either.
The answer is still Kobe...
Broadway...I'm willing to bet you SEE LeBron play 3X as much as you see Kobe play.
broadwayjoe
May 5Dimes MLB 2nd place
you wouldn't want a guy that's going to do ALL of those things for you to get and keep the game out of reach? you would rather hope the game is close so kobe can have that killer instinct at the end? well, that's your choice, but i'd take the former.
and yeah, i see all of lebron's games, so it's a lot more, but i don't think it's anywhere near the disparity between how many times most people have seen kobe vs the times they've seen lebron. i've still watched at least 20-25 reg season kobe games a year and for a longer period of time...i think i have a good sample size. i'm not as confident in the majority of the public's sample size of exposure to lebron when compared to kobe
and yeah, i see all of lebron's games, so it's a lot more, but i don't think it's anywhere near the disparity between how many times most people have seen kobe vs the times they've seen lebron. i've still watched at least 20-25 reg season kobe games a year and for a longer period of time...i think i have a good sample size. i'm not as confident in the majority of the public's sample size of exposure to lebron when compared to kobe
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Billivy
Guest
brodaway joe i'm not discussing this with you and your avator...sorry...I'm a spurs fan...a diehard spurs fan...i'm neutral...you are not
broadwayjoe
May 5Dimes MLB 2nd place
^i understand that, and there's obviously no way that i'm not biased...
but nothing in my response to your post was subjective other than the last two sentences
but nothing in my response to your post was subjective other than the last two sentences
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Billivy
Guest
this poll asked very simply....who do you want..everything being equal with 6 minutes left in the nba finals...
Kobe has more experience, and has a better jump shot...why do i constantly bring up his jump shooting?...simply bc in teh finals...you do NOT get to the rim at will...
watch Lebron forced to take more jumpers against either LAL or SAS...and that will pose problems for Mr. James and his three time reconstructed jump shot...
with 6 minutes left, i dont care abuot steals and assists and rebounds...why? b/c he averages 2-3 more in every category than a guy who plays a seperate position...he also turns the ball over more...and you're also only talking about a few seasons...can i cherry pick kobe's best?...might skew things against dont ya think?
i simply think it takes more skill to do what kobe does than james
Kobe has more experience, and has a better jump shot...why do i constantly bring up his jump shooting?...simply bc in teh finals...you do NOT get to the rim at will...
watch Lebron forced to take more jumpers against either LAL or SAS...and that will pose problems for Mr. James and his three time reconstructed jump shot...
with 6 minutes left, i dont care abuot steals and assists and rebounds...why? b/c he averages 2-3 more in every category than a guy who plays a seperate position...he also turns the ball over more...and you're also only talking about a few seasons...can i cherry pick kobe's best?...might skew things against dont ya think?
i simply think it takes more skill to do what kobe does than james
B
Billivy
Guest
ummm yes it was sir, you said his FG percentage was of course higher and implying a large margin...it's less than 2% higher and that's with a MUCH easier array a shots attempted...i believe that stat illustrates my point perfectly
JumpOnBoard
CTG Partner
B
Billivy
Guest
absolutely...lol...last question of the survey
JumpOnBoard
CTG Partner
opcorn:
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Billivy
Guest
that is the most overwhelming consensus I've ever seen in a poll of GMs
horses
Brady licks Marino's knob
that is the most overwhelming consensus I've ever seen in a poll of GMs
And that particular poll best represents the original question that started this thread in the first place...
Imagine that...eighty something percent.
So now we have the CTG and GM poll supporting Kobe; anymore 'sources' Lebron backers wanna pull up?
And that particular poll best represents the original question that started this thread in the first place...
Imagine that...eighty something percent.
So now we have the CTG and GM poll supporting Kobe; anymore 'sources' Lebron backers wanna pull up?
SF_capper
CTG addict
the poll asked who you'd rather have in one game. not who youd rather have with 6 minutes left in a game, or who you'd rather have taking the last shot. reread the original post
... also lebron has taken a team to the finals, got embarassed pretty badly on a horrible team- arguably one of the worst teams to make the finals in recent memory, but still was there so "c: HAS NEVER BEEN IN AN NBA FINAL!!!!....wtf does regular season even matter? " is not much true.
... also lebron has taken a team to the finals, got embarassed pretty badly on a horrible team- arguably one of the worst teams to make the finals in recent memory, but still was there so "c: HAS NEVER BEEN IN AN NBA FINAL!!!!....wtf does regular season even matter? " is not much true.
JumpOnBoard
CTG Partner
?????
Which player in the NBA would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?
1. Kobe Bryant -- 88.9%
Others receiving votes: Gilbert Arenas, LeBron James, Paul Pierce
SF_capper
CTG addict
Obviously they play different positions. But they're at least comparable; they're only one position apart. It's not like comparing Jordan to Chamberlain.
One game for the NBA title. All other players on your team equal, all other factors equal, including all positions on other team (so there's no advantage to taking LeBron, the forward, or Kobe, the guard).
Do you take Kobe or LeBron for that one game?
was referring to this poll
broadwayjoe
May 5Dimes MLB 2nd place
^i see the two as completely different. i would take kobe for the last shot and i wouldn't even have to think twice. this question was for a FULL GAME. i guess it can be interpreted different ways, but i see the two as quite different.
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