2016 Eastern Conference Finals Discussion: Raptors vs Cavaliers

If we change the name of the championship game next year to the Super Duper Bowl, do we erase the Patriots, Steelers, Cowboys, Niners, Packers?
 
tipyerbartender said:
If we change the name of the championship game next year to the Super Duper Bowl, do we erase the Patriots, Steelers, Cowboys, Niners, Packers?
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Those AAFC championships are meaningless. Fact remains that as soon as the NFL entered the modern era the Browns fell into the ashheap of football history.
 
I'm not counting those. The Browns have four NFL championships.
 
The fact remains the name of the NFL championship game was changed to the Super Bowl.

In fact, the Browns first three NFL championships were quite a surprise as they won them as soon as they joined the NFL. They were the Jets before Broadway Joe.
 
But when the AFL and NFL merged, they just adopted the NFL name. If they had changed the name for the new league they formed, this wouldn't be as debatable. The "NFL" Championships the Browns won were before the "real" NFL began. But you're more than welcome to claim them as NFL titles...we understand...Cleveland.
 
Lareux said:
But when the AFL and NFL merged, they just adopted the NFL name. If they had changed the name for the new league they formed, this wouldn't be as debatable. The "NFL" Championships the Browns won were before the "real" NFL began. But you're more than welcome to claim them as NFL titles...we understand...Cleveland.
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The NFL claims them as NFL titles. I'll go with that.
 
tipyerbartender said:
AZ is ornery because his Spurs died of old age on the court.
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Only Cleveland fans with their massive inferiority complex claim championships before the Super Bowl...you never hear Detroit Lion fans demanding their momemt of ancient glory be counted.

The Browns were not the Jets because the Jets actually beat the champion of the other pro league unlike the Browns.

Seriously, San Antonio has 1 fucking team but 5 more Titles than Cleveland has. WTF is wrong with Cleveland sports...that's pathetic.
 
1964 had an MLB champion, an NHL champion, an NBA champion, and an NFL champion. A Wimbledon champion, a Masters champion, a Kentucky Derby champion and probably some gearhead car racing champions. NFL has been around quite a while, including the years the Browns won its championshipS. I don't think the Bears or the Colts or the Giants are giving their NFL championships back.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Only Cleveland fans with their massive inferiority complex claim championships before the Super Bowl...you never hear Detroit Lion fans demanding their momemt of ancient glory be counted.

The Browns were not the Jets because the Jets actually beat the champion of the other pro league unlike the Browns.

Seriously, San Antonio has 1 fucking team but 5 more Titles than Cleveland has. WTF is wrong with Cleveland sports...that's pathetic.
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Do the Lions have glory? Bobby Layne? Crack a book, lad. The Browns were the toast of the league in the 50's. Jim Brown is the Babe Ruth of football.
 
We want you to believe all we care about is sports and championship droughts. Admittedly, I'm kind of a sicko about this Indians thing. But most Cleveland people just kind of live like the rest of you.
 
Basically, your argument is that, hypothetically, if the NFL were to merge with the CFL next season, still call itself the NFL, and play off the two league champions in the Super Duper Grey Bowl next season, Bengals beat the Argonauts ... End result is Cowboys have never won a title. Not in the modern era of the Super Duper Grey Bowl.
 
When did the Lombardi Trophy get its name? Certainly after the Packers won the first two Super Bowls. I move to grade only the NFL champions who have won a trophy named the Lombardi Trophy at the time of said victory. The official marketing name of the game and the honorific name of the trophy are both more important here than the timeline of league champion.
 
Cleveland has the UFC heavyweight champion and some of the best skiing in the world
 
Detroit to SB, no doubt.


Cleveland franchise actually has SB wins, just in Baltimore. This version was basically an expansion team...and yes I get what I am saying and someone will turn it the other way...
 
And Fort Wayne actually has a few NBA championships, just in Detroit.
 
The Bears, Colts, and Giants don't mention their ancient NFL championships and you know why ? Because their too busy polishing their Super Bowl trophies.

You never hear Buffalo fan clinging to their 2 AFL championships...they only talk about losing 4 Super Bowls in a row because Super Bowls matter. Rams and Lions fans don't bring theirs up, only the Cleveland fanbase grasps at those pre Super Bowl era Titles because they literally have nothing else to celebrate.

Congrats, in a 12 team league the Browns essentially won their division and a first round playoff game but in no way do they belong in the same pantheon as legendary Steelers, Cowboys, and 49er teams whose Super Bowl trophies signify achievement in the modern NFL.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Basically, your argument is that, hypothetically, if the NFL were to merge with the CFL next season, still call itself the NFL, and play off the two league champions in the Super Duper Grey Bowl next season, Bengals beat the Argonauts ... End result is Cowboys have never won a title. Not in the modern era of the Super Duper Grey Bowl.
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It's not "basically," that's exactly it. But it's not that the Cowboys never won "a title," they will never have won a Super Duper Bowl. Just like your team has never won a Super Bowl. Seems like pretty easy logic.
 
ArizonaKid said:
The Bears, Colts, and Giants don't mention their ancient NFL championships and you know why ? Because their too busy polishing their Super Bowl trophies.

You never hear Buffalo fan clinging to their 2 AFL championships...they only talk about losing 4 Super Bowls in a row because Super Bowls matter. Rams and Lions fans don't bring theirs up, only the Cleveland fanbase grasps at those pre Super Bowl era Titles because they literally have nothing else to celebrate.

Congrats, in a 12 team league the Browns essentially won their division and a first round playoff game but in no way do they belong in the same pantheon as legendary Steelers, Cowboys, and 49er teams whose Super Bowl trophies signify achievement in the modern NFL.
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You don't have a solid grasp of the history of professional sports. I'm not clinging to anything, just correcting your mistakes. You're clinging to an arbitrary name of a championship game, like a child or an ad executive might. The Browns have four NFL championships, more than most NFL teams. The NFL recognizes these as, oddly enough, NFL championships. No one said anything about the AFL or any other rival professional league. Yes, there were fewer teams in professional sports then. So fucking what. Their last NFL championship was in 1964, perhaps you've seen a recent sappy ESPN documentary about this. The NFL had 14 teams then (not 12). The Detroit Red Wings won the NHL championship in 1964, in a 6-team league. The Boston Celtics won the NBA championship in 1964, 10 teams, 2 divisions. The St. Louis Cardinals won the MLB championship in 1964, 20 teams, 2 leagues. These were the 1964 champions of your four major American sports leagues.

You can argue it all day and all night, you'll still be wrong.

This all started because I corrected teed. He mentioned something about the Raiders' "titles" and implied they have more than the Browns. Just not true. The Browns have many more titles, and have earned one more NFL championship than the Raiders.

These are facts.
 
ArizonaKid said:
The Bears, Colts, and Giants don't mention their ancient NFL championships and you know why ? Because their too busy polishing their Super Bowl trophies.

You never hear Buffalo fan clinging to their 2 AFL championships...they only talk about losing 4 Super Bowls in a row because Super Bowls matter. Rams and Lions fans don't bring theirs up, only the Cleveland fanbase grasps at those pre Super Bowl era Titles because they literally have nothing else to celebrate.



Congrats, in a 12 team league the Browns essentially won their division and a first round playoff game but in no way do they belong in the same pantheon as legendary Steelers, Cowboys, and 49er teams whose Super Bowl trophies signify achievement in the modern NFL.
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Yet another Azkid assumption pulled from the ass, based on nothing.

From the Giants' own website in the history section. Funny, doesn't even mention the phrase, "Super Bowl champion", but does seem to highlight their eight league championships ...


"Founded in 1925, the Giants have a rich history as one of the NFL's cornerstone franchises. The eight-time league champions embark on their 90th season in 2014, and as part of a yearlong celebration, we have created a virtual tour through a collection of artifacts that tell the story of our team.

From a 1927 game ball used during the Giants' first title season to the locker of two-time Super Bowl MVP Eli Manning, the Legacy Club honors every generation of Giants football.

So whether you grew up watching Big Blue at the Polo Grounds or in the team's current home, MetLife Stadium, re-live the decades of Giants lore as you navigate through the Tribute Room and Legends Room. Be sure to zoom in on individual cases and click on items inside each case for descriptions, historical context, photos, videos, and much more.

If the Giants' future is as storied as their past, the next 90 seasons look bright.

Once a Giant, always a Giant."
 
tipyerbartender said:
You don't have a solid grasp of the history of professional sports. I'm not clinging to anything, just correcting your mistakes. You're clinging to an arbitrary name of a championship game, like a child or an ad executive might. The Browns have four NFL championships, more than most NFL teams. The NFL recognizes these as, oddly enough, NFL championships. No one said anything about the AFL or any other rival professional league. Yes, there were fewer teams in professional sports then. So fucking what. Their last NFL championship was in 1964, perhaps you've seen a recent sappy ESPN documentary about this. The NFL had 14 teams then (not 12). The Detroit Red Wings won the NHL championship in 1964, in a 6-team league. The Boston Celtics won the NBA championship in 1964, 10 teams, 2 divisions. The St. Louis Cardinals won the MLB championship in 1964, 20 teams, 2 leagues. These were the 1964 champions of your four major American sports leagues.

You can argue it all day and all night, you'll still be wrong.

This all started because I corrected teed. He mentioned something about the Raiders' "titles" and implied they have more than the Browns. Just not true. The Browns have many more titles, and have earned one more NFL championship than the Raiders.

These are facts.
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Didn't correct me tipper

Even if those titles counted they left town with Art
 
I'm going to have to correct you again. The two cities, the NFL, and Art Modell came to a legal settlement, the kind involving signed documents, the first of its kind actually, which kept the name, the colors, and most importantly the history and legacy of the Cleveland Browns in Cleveland. Modell wanted all of that to move to Baltimore, he wanted the Baltimore Browns, the league and the lawyers blocked him. All he took were the players and some employees. He even dumped his coach, Bill Belichick, in favor of an up and comer named Ted Marchibroda. Ted Marchibroda is not a part of Browns history.

You see, the reason the Browns' sucking is so painful to Browns fans isn't the sucking itself. Then they would just be the Bills or the Falcons. The reason is that each passing year of bad football since 1999 tarnishes one of the proudest legacies in the NFL.
 
Cleveland tried to screw ole Artie over so he got some balls n left
good for him
 
dudleysdad said:
Cleveland tried to screw ole Artie over so he got some balls n left
good for him
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I don't disagree with this (maybe disagree with the "good for him" part of it). Art Modell was not a bad man. Lot of layers to the onion about Modell moving his team to Baltimore. However, a flimsy popcorn documentary on ESPN does not do justice to just how terrible a pro sports owner he was.

And teed, if you don't like to be corrected, you need to quit guessing wrong about things you don't know about.
 
Didn't mean it on a legal basis tip

The franchise left

They their history with them whether or not legal papers say so
 
guaranteeed said:
Didn't mean it on a legal basis tip

The franchise left

They their history with them whether or not legal papers say so
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Says who? I don't care about your basis. History and legacy are kind of slippery, nebulous things that can't be stuffed in a box and tossed in a moving van. Considering that the NFL does not recognize the Ravens franchise as 6-time NFL champions, that the Ravens themselves stake no claim to Browns history, and that the current Browns embrace the legacy of one of the NFL's greatest teams, I fail to see where you're coming from. I'll go with the two teams, the cities in which they play, and the league in which they play as authorities on this matter over the opinion of teed from CTG, even though you're a smart guy. It's OK to be wrong.
 
Top of my head, think there are six or seven NFL teams with more NFL titles than the Browns. (I'm fuzzy on Washington.) Another few with as many. I am certain that the Raiders aren't on either list. Sadly, the Browns haven't won one since 1964, well before Lamar Hunt's passing comment changed the name of the championship game after three of them had already been played. You'll find no news account of Super Bowl I, II, or III calling it the Super Bowl or using Roman numerals.
 
The city can claim them, the current Browns franchise can't or if they do they are just being disingenuous
 
At the time of the Cardinals' last championship the population of Phoenix was < 100,000 but the franchise still claims it
 
The city really can only claim a World Series and several Arena Bowl world championships
 
clowncar said:
Much like Baltimore cannot claim the old browns titles but the ravens can
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You guys can argue this until you're blue in the face and can no longer breathe, but the facts will always get in your way. If the Ravens can claim the Browns' titles, why don't they? Four more titles would be a cool thing to claim. The legacy and the laundry stayed in Cleveland.
 
kjohnson109 said:
At the time of the Cardinals' last championship the population of Phoenix was < 100,000 but the franchise still claims it
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This is actually a good example to illustrate the differences in pro sports team relocation. The Bidwills just kept bumping along with the Cardinals, from Chicago to St. Louis to Phoenix, never really developing much of a legacy. Name, colors, legacy, history? Take 'em, don't let the door hit you in the ass. When Modell moved his team, the reaction was quite the opposite, and as it turned out, the legacy was not his to own nor move.
 
tipyerbartender said:
You guys can argue this until you're blue in the face and can no longer breathe, but the facts will always get in your way. If the Ravens can claim the Browns' titles, why don't they? Four more titles would be a cool thing to claim. The legacy and the laundry stayed in Cleveland.
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Because no one cares about titles before the super bowl.
 
Mets must be pumped for when the yankees leave town so they can get all those world series titles.
 
clowncar said:
Because no one but Tip and JFF care about titles before the super bowl?
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The NFL itself, people old and young who appreciate history and sports and innovation, old timers, the Giants, the Bears, the Colts, the Redskins, the Browns, the Packers, the people who realize the NFL didn't begin in 1967 ... these are all groups who care about NFL championships.

Do you celebrate July 4th? I have to ask, why? You weren't around in 1776, the United States weren't the United States, we didn't even have any states. I don't understand why something that happened 240 years ago is a source of pride for you.
 
tipyerbartender said:
The NFL itself, people old and young who appreciate history and sports and innovation, old timers, the Giants, the Bears, the Colts, the Redskins, the Browns, the Packers, the people who realize the NFL didn't begin in 1967 ... these are all groups who care about NFL championships.

Do you celebrate July 4th? I have to ask, why? You weren't around in 1776, the United States weren't the United States, we didn't even have any states. I don't understand why something that happened 240 years ago is a source of pride for you.
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I july 4th only during the super bowl era
 
seriously this is an easy question

if the Dallas Cowboys leave Dallas, Jerry is taking the superbowl trophies with him, the city isn't keeping them

Cleveland was left, congrats on keeping the name, but it's a brand new franchise, with new owners, a new record etc.
 
guaranteeed said:
seriously this is an easy question

if the Dallas Cowboys leave Dallas, Jerry is taking the superbowl trophies with him, the city isn't keeping them

Cleveland was left, congrats on keeping the name, but it's a brand new franchise, with new owners, a new record etc.
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That's, of course, hypothetical. But Modell didn't take the Browns championships with him to Baltimore. Hell, he was only around for one of the Browns championships anyway, with Paul Brown's team. Ask the NFL, ask the Ravens, ask a Baltimore bartender, ask that little dweeb David Modell, how many NFL championships do the Baltimore Ravens have? Answer? Two.
 
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