Wimbledon 2023 In-Game

Everything had to go right for Carlos. Don’t see this as a passing. Props to him for doing it. But joker blew a ton of chances and wasn’t moving well for 2 entire sets.

Hope we get a rubber at the US at close to pick because it was the grass and the wind that kept Carlos in so many points.
 
As good as Carlos is Joker is PK to win both next hard courts. Motivation will be there for US after he was persecuted for not being allowed to play for 2 years.
 
His wimby success has basically come once Rafa and the Fed got done, and the weak men's field wasn't up to his challenge (until now).

I mean, Murray beat him in straight sets at the venue ffs.
 
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BetCrimes1984 said:
His wimby success has basically come once Rafa and the Fed got done, and the weak men's field wasn't up to his challenge (until now).

I mean, Murray beat him in straight sets at the venue ffs.
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And a lot of luck as he admitted. He stole 2019 from Fed.
 
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It's gonna be tough for Novak to win at US Open, he doesn't usually win there...but...has all the motivation in the world to do it. It's crazy to me how fast Alcaraz rise has been. It's incredible. How does this kid not win 20+ majors if he doesn't get injured?
 
HUNT said:
It's gonna be tough for Novak to win at US Open, he doesn't usually win there...but...has all the motivation in the world to do it. It's crazy to me how fast Alcaraz rise has been. It's incredible. How does this kid not win 20+ majors if he doesn't get injured?
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Same thing could've been said about Becker in 1986 after his back to back Wimbledon wins. He also won at the US and Aussie Opens. But only totaled 6 Slam titles in a career involving 4 losing finals and 8 losing semi-finals. The answer is, because you don't know the strength of his pool of opposition yet. Graf could've had 30+, but then this chick out of nowhere called Monica Seles appeared and ended that possibility/improbability. Back in the 80s-90s, there were legitimately 15 players who could say they were a real chance to win a men's Slam if their form was on song for two weeks (even though there were obv. stand out favourites). For 15 or so years that number has been 4-5, and it's because of that that not 1 but 3 guys managed to top that 20 mark. That's not normal. Normal is 15 players having a decent shot, which spreads the titles around. IMO we'll see a return of that now the last of the big 3 is on his way into the sunset.

Also, Muguruza is the only woman ever to beat both Williams sisters in a Slam final, she had youth on her side and given the weakness of the tour at the time she won her 2nd Slam title had an opening to claim 10+ titles if she applied herself. Where is she now? Ranked in the 200s with only a losing final to her name since her two Williams' wins. She let her good results (& the fame & money that followed) go to her head. Hence the saying: success is the true test of (wo)man, not failure. Carlos has a lot to peripheral things to experience & learn from that could easily derail his talent if he gets caught up in them/by them. It's not only injuries that can usurp talent: just ask Boris Becker.
 
BetCrimes1984 said:
Same thing could've been said about Becker in 1986 after his back to back Wimbledon wins. He also won at the US and Aussie Opens. But only totaled 6 Slam titles in a career involving 4 losing finals and 8 losing semi-finals. The answer is, because you don't know the strength of his pool of opposition yet. Graf could've had 30+, but then this chick out of nowhere called Monica Seles appeared and ended that possibility/improbability. Back in the 80s-90s, there were legitimately 15 players who could say they were a real chance to win a men's Slam if their form was on song for two weeks (even though there were obv. stand out favourites). For 15 or so years that number has been 4-5, and it's because of that that not 1 but 3 guys managed to top that 20 mark. That's not normal. Normal is 15 players having a decent shot, which spreads the titles around. IMO we'll see a return of that now the last of the big 3 is on his way into the sunset.

Also, Muguruza is the only woman ever to beat both Williams sisters in a Slam final, she had youth on her side and given the weakness of the tour at the time she won her 2nd Slam title had an opening to claim 10+ titles if she applied herself. Where is she now? Ranked in the 200s with only a losing final to her name since her two Williams' wins. She let her good results (& the fame & money that followed) go to her head. Hence the saying: success is the true test of (wo)man, not failure. Carlos has a lot to peripheral things to experience & learn from that could easily derail his talent if he gets caught up in them/by them. It's not only injuries that can usurp talent: just ask Boris Becker.
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The strength of his pool of opposition is shit right now at least. It's Djokovic and Alcaraz then everyone else...Sinner is good, but doesn't have that next gear yet, same as Rune.

Graf is the GOAT. She retired early. Could have had way more than she did, yes, Seles was a worthy adversary..but Graf would have way more if she didn't leave so young.

You make a lot of good points BC and I agree with a lot of them, I'm just syaing I haven't seen a kid like Alcaraz since a young Djokovic/Nadal burst on the scene. This kid has speed, power, IQ, I dunno, he's way more devleoped and advanced then they were at their age and that is scary.
 
HUNT said:
The strength of his pool of opposition is shit right now at least. It's Djokovic and Alcaraz then everyone else...Sinner is good, but doesn't have that next gear yet, same as Rune.

Graf is the GOAT. She retired early. Could have had way more than she did, yes, Seles was a worthy adversary..but Graf would have way more if she didn't leave so young.

You make a lot of good points BC and I agree with a lot of them, I'm just syaing I haven't seen a kid like Alcaraz since a young Djokovic/Nadal burst on the scene. This kid has speed, power, IQ, I dunno, he's way more devleoped and advanced then they were at their age and that is scary.
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I'm not saying he can't or won't be the dominant player of his era, but that's different from agreeing he's a chance to win 20+ titles. The following list represents the immediate threats to him just owning the tour (that we know of):

Ruud (3 losing finals - only 24, but not a grass courter)
Rune (only 20)
Tsitsipas (2 losing finals, 4 losing SF - still only 24)
Krygios (1 lost final - he's 28, if he dedicates himself like he did to make that final in the first place he's got another 5+ years)
Zverev (1 lost final, 5 losing SF - still only 26)
Medvedev (1 title, 3 lost finals incl. 1 after being up 2-0 sets, but not a grass courter - 27 yo)

None are Americans, surely Stateside men's talent can't stay silent forever.

That makes a big 7, and then there's the 'dark' talent waiting in the wings we have no idea about, like a Monica Seles.
 
To think of what Monica's career could have been if she didn't literally get stabbed in the back. We'll never know obviously, but even after healing up how could anyone ever really play at the level she did when you've got half an eye on your back every time?

Hingis was the best hope for greatness after that until Serena came along in WTA, now you apparently only need to make the quarters somewhat consistently to be ranked in the top 5.

We'll never see an era like Fed/Rafa/Murray and throw in the occasional Stan, Joker got to taste the back half of it and has thrived obviously but those other 4 were really all "victims" of having each other in their primes. Best era in this sport we'll ever see for sure. Can only hope for something like it again but with all the specialists and the way it's evolved I don't think players today care about that as much as specializing on certain surfaces etc. Calros is so insanely talented but is he generational? That will take a lot of time and desire on his part to really know.

He certainly has earned #1 in the world, I really didn't think he had the footwork to beat Joker on grass but that was insanely good.
 
BetCrimes1984 said:
I'm not saying he can't or won't be the dominant player of his era, but that's different from agreeing he's a chance to win 20+ titles. The following list represents the immediate threats to him just owning the tour (that we know of):

Ruud (3 losing finals - only 24, but not a grass courter)
Rune (only 20)
Tsitsipas (2 losing finals, 4 losing SF - still only 24)
Krygios (1 lost final - he's 28, if he dedicates himself like he did to make that final in the first place he's got another 5+ years)
Zverev (1 lost final, 5 losing SF - still only 26)
Medvedev (1 title, 3 lost finals incl. 1 after being up 2-0 sets, but not a grass courter - 27 yo)

None are Americans, surely Stateside men's talent can't stay silent forever.

That makes a big 7, and then there's the 'dark' talent waiting in the wings we have no idea about, like a Monica Seles.
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None of those players you mention besides possibly Rune and Ruud on clay only pose any sort of threat to Alcaraz. The only player with a legitimate chance to be great besides Alcaraz is Sinner and he is a bit lacking on the mental side of the game at least as of now.
 
KJ said:
To think of what Monica's career could have been if she didn't literally get stabbed in the back. We'll never know obviously, but even after healing up how could anyone ever really play at the level she did when you've got half an eye on your back every time?

Hingis was the best hope for greatness after that until Serena came along in WTA, now you apparently only need to make the quarters somewhat consistently to be ranked in the top 5.

We'll never see an era like Fed/Rafa/Murray and throw in the occasional Stan, Joker got to taste the back half of it and has thrived obviously but those other 4 were really all "victims" of having each other in their primes. Best era in this sport we'll ever see for sure. Can only hope for something like it again but with all the specialists and the way it's evolved I don't think players today care about that as much as specializing on certain surfaces etc. Calros is so insanely talented but is he generational? That will take a lot of time and desire on his part to really know.

He certainly has earned #1 in the world, I really didn't think he had the footwork to beat Joker on grass but that was insanely good.
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Can we stop including Murray and his 3 grand slams which is the same as Wawrinka in the conversation with Djokovic/Rafa/Federer.
 
brewers888 said:
None of those players you mention besides possibly Rune and Ruud on clay only pose any sort of threat to Alcaraz. The only player with a legitimate chance to be great besides Alcaraz is Sinner and he is a bit lacking on the mental side of the game at least as of now.
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Ruud and Sinner are the two I pull for right now, there is something to be said about Sinner's head space though. Can't bag on a 21 year old and of course I get that Alcaraz is younger, but I hope it matures. Sinner's emotions seem so in check, I think that hurts his performance. The great ones do more than just little fist bumps when they win big points. Dude needs to let it fly at some point.
 
KJ said:
Ruud and Sinner are the two I pull for right now, there is something to be said about Sinner's head space though. Can't bag on a 21 year old and of course I get that Alcaraz is younger, but I hope it matures. Sinner's emotions seem so in check, I think that hurts his performance. The great ones do more than just little fist bumps when they win big points. Dude needs to let it fly at some point.
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There is plenty of time for Sinner to improve mentally but he isn't there yet. I think Rune is the stronger guy mentally but he still has a ways to go before challenging Alcaraz who is way in front of any of the other young players.
 
brewers888 said:
Can we stop including Murray and his 3 grand slams which is the same as Wawrinka in the conversation with Djokovic/Rafa/Federer.
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No, Murray probably would have double digits in this era and I can't stand the guy. He was always up against the Fed/Nadal machine. The real question is how Joker would have done in that era, he is not that era.
 
brewers888 said:
There is plenty of time for Sinner to improve mentally but he isn't there yet. I think Rune is the stronger guy mentally but he still has a ways to go before challenging Alcaraz who is way in front of any of the other young players.
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Rune is basically Kyrgios without the appeal to the general fan. He'll always get in his own way but he doesn't have a clue how to make it likeable the the great assholes the sport has seen in the past.
 
KJ said:
No, Murray probably would have double digits in this era and I can't stand the guy. He was always up against the Fed/Nadal machine. The real question is how Joker would have done in that era, he is not that era.
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Fed started in 1998, Nadal 2001, Djokovic 2003.
 
brewers888 said:
None of those players you mention besides possibly Rune and Ruud on clay only pose any sort of threat to Alcaraz. The only player with a legitimate chance to be great besides Alcaraz is Sinner and he is a bit lacking on the mental side of the game at least as of now.
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I agree with everything you said. I just see it being Alcaraz #1 all the way...it's a fight for #2...of course this is after Nole retires. Alcaraz just did what no one has been able to do really on a grass court with very little experience. If that was any other guy, Djokovic wins in straights. Vice versa with Carlos.

I see the next few years as battles with Carlitos and Djokovic for titles. Djoka will win a few more, but Carlos will get 2+ a year as well.
 
As for Seles, it wasn't like Graf couldn't beat her, it was simply it wasn't a given who'd win when they met. For those who don't know, they tied their meetings 3-3 before Seles got stabbed, then Graf won 4-1 after she returned from her injury. Seles certainly would've prevented Graf winning as many Slams as she did, but she wasn't going to stop her from winning a bunch more.
 
BetCrimes1984 said:
As for Seles, it wasn't like Graf couldn't beat her, it was simply it wasn't a given who'd win when they met. For those who don't know, they tied their meetings 3-3 before Seles got stabbed, then Graf won 4-1 after she returned from her injury. Seles certainly would've prevented Graf winning as many Slams as she did, but she wasn't going to stop her from winning a bunch more.
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Graf won 22 slams and retired at age 30. Serena won 23 and retired at age 40. Why is Serena considered the GOAT?
 
One thing in common we do know is the most recent women's champ and Graf have similar beaks. Maybe there's something to that, doubt it, but maybe.
 
For my money the best era in tennis was the mid-70s thru late 80s. McEnroe, Conners, Borg, Wilander, Lendl, Edberg, Vilas, Becker......not only did we get compelling finals but the semis and quarters had must watch matches too, something this era has only had sporadically. Plus we had Chrissie vs Martina raging on the women's side.
 
Gandolf said:
For my money the best era in tennis was the mid-70s thru late 80s. McEnroe, Conners, Borg, Wilander, Lendl, Edberg, Vilas, Becker......not only did we get compelling finals but the semis and quarters had must watch matches too, something this era has only had sporadically. Plus we had Chrissie vs Martina raging on the women's side.
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I loved watching Pat Rafter, Pat Cash (his win over Lendl in the '87 Wimby final was up there in excitement with Becker's win against the Czech the year before), Michael Stich, Goran Ivanisevic. Men's tour had great depth back then.
 
Inspekdah said:
Paints the lines so well. Carlos ran a lot of them down today.
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I dont know tennis much but one thing i noticed is when joker had him running side to side he didn't go for the line kill shot. Seemed like it was often couple feet in, which carlos ran down so well. But i dont really know if that is how it always is. I think joker is still going to win a few more. Hope so. Pretty good guy for GOAT. Id like to see get 25 or 26.
 
HUNT said:
Graf won 22 slams and retired at age 30. Serena won 23 and retired at age 40. Why is Serena considered the GOAT?
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Seles won 8 majors before she was 20; she would have won more majors than Graf. Graf's primary competition in the 90s was midget Vicario.

Yeah, they were lose head to head but if you were following tennis at the time Seles had the upper hand. She would have reduced Graf to simply a HOF and removed her from any GOAT debate.
 
horses said:
Seles won 8 majors before she was 20; she would have won more majors than Graf. Graf's primary competition in the 90s was midget Vicario.

Yeah, they were lose head to head but if you were following tennis at the time Seles had the upper hand. She would have reduced Graf to simply a HOF and removed her from any GOAT debate.
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Prior to the murder attempt, Seles had won 5 of the last 6 GS and the count stood at 11-8 in favor of Graf. After the murder attempt, Graf went on to win the next 4 majors.
 
horses said:
Prior to the murder attempt, Seles had won 5 of the last 6 GS and the count stood at 11-8 in favor of Graf. After the murder attempt, Graf went on to win the next 4 majors.
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It's amazing looking back at how much the average joe has access in golf tournaments. Can apply that to NBA as well but those courtside seats are held by people that have a ton to lose so I'd guess it feels more secure. Golf not so much.

How that happened to the best player in the world on a tennis court rattled me but I was just graduating high school and really couldn't grasp how big that was on a global level. That was 30 years ago. Now I think much more about it. Imagine going to your job just thinking that at any moment someone could try to murder you.

If she was American, black or white, that story would be rehashed every year.
 
cubsker said:
Rafter against a baseliner (Andre or Jim C.) were my favorite matches.
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Similar to why I loved Edberg and Sampras matches

I patterned my intramural badminton career after the serve and volley, the weaknesses were real even though I wasn't tall
 
horses said:
Seles won 8 majors before she was 20; she would have won more majors than Graf. Graf's primary competition in the 90s was midget Vicario.

Yeah, they were lose head to head but if you were following tennis at the time Seles had the upper hand. She would have reduced Graf to simply a HOF and removed her from any GOAT debate.
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No doubt, Seles was incredible too. Lefty was tough. Hard to believe she had 8 before the age of 20, I didn't know that.
 
Something important is being missed with regards to Seles.

(1) After she returned from her injury, she made 3 Slam finals out of her first 5 Slams back (won 1, lost 2). The injury she suffered didn't debilitate her physical competency as a tennis player. Of those first 5 Slams back, she lost in the 2R at Wimby. In the other 4, she made the QF stage at least in all of them.

(2) Neither before or after the injury did she ever do anything at Wimbledon bar making 1 final (Graf thrashed her 6-1 6-2 in that). In 8 other wimby appearances she never made it past the QF stage.

(3) Graf owned Wimbledon throughout her career: 9 finals, won 7.

Seles never adapted to grass, she was a baseliner and the faster surface back then found out her game. Whether Seles is hurt or not, she doesn't make a dent in Graf's success on grass. That still makes Graf one of the best ever.

It's like Federer at the French trying to deny Nadal. If Federer got hurt the way Seles did, it doesn't make a jot of difference to Nadal's clay court success.
 
BetCrimes1984 said:
Something important is being missed with regards to Seles.

(1) After she returned from her injury, she made 3 Slam finals out of her first 5 Slams back (won 1, lost 2). The injury she suffered didn't debilitate her physical competency as a tennis player. Of those first 5 Slams back, she lost in the 2R at Wimby. In the other 4, she made the QF stage at least in all of them.

(2) Neither before or after the injury did she ever do anything at Wimbledon bar making 1 final (Graf thrashed her 6-1 6-2 in that). In 8 other wimby appearances she never made it past the QF stage.

(3) Graf owned Wimbledon throughout her career: 9 finals, won 7.

Seles never adapted to grass, she was a baseliner and the faster surface back then found out her game. Whether Seles is hurt or not, she doesn't make a dent in Graf's success on grass. That still makes Graf one of the best ever.

It's like Federer at the French trying to deny Nadal. If Federer got hurt the way Seles did, it doesn't make a jot of difference to Nadal's clay court success.
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I simply can't do this, it that's your view that's your view

You call it injury, I call it attempted murder. The term injury couldn't even enter my mind. I pull a hammy, I want to get back to where I was pre-injury. I get stabbed, I likely don't want to be a professional athlete anymore.

We'll never know Monica Seles at her peak on grass. That's the entire issue, she was on path to be the best, then Stef hired that belligerent Tonya Harding style
 
"Injury" come on man, you are possibly the wisest person round these parts. Injury?
 
KJ said:
I simply can't do this, it that's your view that's your view

You call it injury, I call it attempted murder. The term injury couldn't even enter my mind. I pull a hammy, I want to get back to where I was pre-injury. I get stabbed, I likely don't want to be a professional athlete anymore.

We'll never know Monica Seles at her peak on grass. That's the entire issue, she was on path to be the best, then Stef hired that belligerent Tonya Harding style
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She won 8 Slams in 11 straight Slam appearances before she got injured. That IS her peak (it's like Tiger Woods winning 7 out of 11 Majors early in his career. never a peak to be repeated. It's nuts to think she was THAT good to keep such a rate up. She wasn't, injury or not). During that peak Graf thrashed the shit out of her in her only ever Wimby final (she won all of 3 games: which is 2 more than she won against Graf in their other pre-injury Wimby meeting: Graf won that one 6-0 6-1), for the exact reason I said. Her baseline game wasn't up to the speed to the grass back then (they've acted in various ways to slow things down since). That's not changing if she's never injured.

And when I use the word 'injury' I'm not dealing with the intent of the person who injured her, I'm dealing with the consequences of his action, which objectively was an injury. It seems a strange thing to get hung up on. Also, in her own words she says that attack affected her far more psychologically than physically, her immediate success upon her return to the game after more than 2 years away underpins her own words. She's never making a Slam final again if the injury had been so bad it undermined her game, yet she made a Slam final in her very first Slam back. That attack wore down her mind and no doubt cost her titles, but then serious pain has a way of denying people the ability to invest valuable emotional energy into the meaningless, and ultimately that's what professional sport is in the context of wider existence: meaningless.
 
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