Semis, Finals and 3rd place Discussion

GWarner27

Meatballin' in Celtics Stadium
BEL shocked the world, thanks a lot to a post, a ref not tolerating Neymar's dives and most importantly Courtois. Now, they have to put a huge win behind them and play a continent-mate.

FRA, meanwhile, did what it had to against an undermanned URU side who brought its defense, but really couldn't generate any offense besides two set pieces. One was robbed by Lloris before the second biggest threat for La Celeste (a center back) couldn't put the rebound on net, and another was cleared innocently when a penalty was missed. Those two events kept the lead in tact until a goalkeeping error dropped URU behind by two and that was it.

The last meeting was a friendly held in Paris. It was 2015, so the rosters are very different but some players remain. BEL jumped ahead 2-0 in the 1H and added another to take a 3-0 lead before it finished 4-3 in the visitor's favor. Both teams certainly have the firepower, but in a defensive tournament I'm not sure we'll get that type of game.

BEL is the most likely side to get lost in the quarters and sleepwalk into the semis. They survived plenty of BRA possession in their own half, a fair amount in their own box, but were lethally efficient on the counter and that is how you win. BRA had the OG, but i don't think their defense was to blame for KDB's goal as he is so talented and simply took his opportunity. BEL has plenty of offensive talent and they will be a tough matchup for anybody. FRA will get Matuidi back, but Umtiti was hobbling quite a bit and already had a brace on his knee. I think he'll be someone to watch for, but the game-winning goal came off the head of big CB Varane. Pavard has shown he can finish, but I'm not sure what to think about him as a defender so there may be some concern with how this group will match KDB, Lukaku and Hazard.

As for the BEL defense, Meunier will miss due to suspension and that complicates things. I'm not sure about his replacement, but organization has always been a concern for FRA and today's 2-0 victory does not change that. Pogba is great in an open game, which he should have more of an opportunity vs BEL than he did against a defensive team like URU today, but they know that and should focus on limiting that. Griezmann seems to score out of nowhere, which works for Deschamps because they really couldn't handle another guy who needs to control the ball to be effective. Giroud is an aerial threat, but has been largely absent in this tournament after finally breaking into the starting lineup. He won't have a height advantage and is well known by Kompany from their years in the EPL. After writing all that, I'm curious where the goals will come from? Set pieces are the only bigger threat than the defense itself, but those are hard to predict and especially difficult when there isn't a huge size advantage.

Coaching is probably even because both managers have been criticized as much as anyone, both keepers are great and if anything I'd say Courtois has had the better tournament. Courtois didn't play a quality opponent until today, but he was extremely important in the upset victory. That experience has to be valuable, while Lloris saved a tie score today that was vital by denying a crucial momentum switch before halftime. He's been great in the tournament, but hasn't been challenged much and that challenge is likely approaching in the next match.

As I made the title of this thread, I expected FRA to be a favorite. I was struggling to get an idea of how high to go, but after writing all this I am really just hoping to catch something more friendly than a pick 'em. Greed wants +0.25, but I think I'm just hoping to get odds with a draw meaning push.

Thoughts?
 
I can't really top that but mucho gracias for the analysis. Pretty dayum good stuff. Obviously I'll have rooting interest for Waffle Nation. Hopefully they can get focused the next 3 days and ready to go. They, mentally, cleared their biggest hurdle... So...yeah, sports. Emotion is tough to cap at times.
 
clearing that big hurdle and then having any sort of let-down or loss of focus when having to prepare for a team full of studs like FRA is a scary thing to hear
 
Great write up

Couple of thing s

Brazil expected goals were 3 , play that same game tomorrow Brazil runs in 4-5, but it’s knockout rounds and anything can happen

As for this game I’m still not convinced Belgium can grind out a win (1-0) type game( I’m not counting that glorified friendly vs England) , and I think you need to be able to do that to win tournaments like this

Should be interesting to see how this plays out . Heard one pundit say “Deschamps builds his roster from defense out , while Martinez always tries to figure out how many attackers he can get in the field

Both teams have to respect what the others have in attack , so do we get what we saw vs Brazil today or a game played between the 18 yard boxes with very little in the way of chances
 
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If they played todays game 10x brazil wins 9

Please tell me which side here played better today based off the chances, also it doesnt even matter if he had gotten it right today

I know you think his career started 3 weeks ago but he has a history of being a terrible manager, its not like it was suddenly like i decided he was bad

Dhcn68KUwAAJeV8
 
yeah cavs if you could give it up that'd be nice, everybody thinks Martinez is a clown not just teed

Great write up

Couple of thing s

Brazil expected goals were 3 , play that same game tomorrow Brazil runs in 4-5, but it’s knockout rounds and anything can happen

As for this game I’m still not convinced Belgium can grind out a win (1-0) type game( I’m not counting that glorified friendly vs England) , and I think you need to be able to do that to win tournaments like this

Should be interesting to see how this plays out . Heard one pundit say “Deschamps builds his roster from defense out , while Martinez always tries to figure out how many attackers he can get in the field

Both teams have to respect what the others have in attack , so do we get what we saw vs Brazil today or a game played between the 18 yard boxes with very little in the way of chances

i think it's more likely to be like today's game than a grinder. FRA may have shown they can play the slower, defensive game, but i'm not convinced that's what they want to play.

Pogba wants an open game, Griezmann wants to score and i don't really see anybody on that roster in the midfield slowing it up looking for possession.

BEL has had an easy draw until today, but FRA hasn't exactly faced murderer's row. Opener with AUS escaped with a victory when draw was probably fair, let Peru hold the ball for far too long yet won, then played a nothing game 3 before facing the biggest disappointment of any qualifier. They won 4-3, but coughed up a lead and had to rebalance momentum with a shot from a RB that hardly registers on xG before getting two more because the ARG backline was an embarrassment.

Even if Varane/Umtiti keep Lukaku quiet, he's at least keeping them away from Hazard and KDB. I also think he's been making incredibly unselfish runs all tournament long for his teammates and that is why they beat JPN and won today
 
well that was wild, most important action of the game for CRO was squaring it up before half so they didn't come out too aggressive early in the 2H and fall behind 2-0. From there, RUS tried like hell to make it to penalties only to embarrass themselves with two of the worst attempts I've ever seen.

CRO has now required penalties to advance twice, which could be cheating death if they get another in the semis. ENG already won their own shootout, but they are young and took care of SWE pretty easily today so there should be a fatigue advantage for the Brits.

Speaking of, I'm not sold on ENG yet. They took care of business today thanks to the heads of two players, one off a silly corner given away when it didn't need to be and the other off a failed clearance. Credit Southgate's men for putting the ball in the net, but besides those opportunities I did not feel like ENG did much offensively today. This goes along with the many squandered opportunities in the opener, so this still may be an issue for them even after a lopsided victory. SWE was labeled a great defensive side, but they made some bad mistakes today and were punished for them. Their offense was unable to get them back in the game, a lot of that was thanks to Jordan Pickford's glove, but the charmed ENG life continues (and nearly got another gift playing the lowest ranked team in the competition).

Neither team should be missing anybody due to suspension, but that brings us to injuries. The first thing to think about is the availability of the CRO keeper, who hurt his hamstring late and then was extremely limited in the penalty shootout to the point where I'm shocked CRO survived. His backup started the last match of the group stage vs ISL after CRO clinched and won 2-1, but seems like a significant downgrade as he plays in Belgium. Subacic's club football is played at Monaco and he was great in the last shootout victory as well.

If the backup is in the lineup, ENG will look to pepper him a bunch more than looking for great scoring chances. I'm not sure that will change a gameplan, though, because ultimately every game the offense is looking for the easiest scoring chances possible and I can't imagine they would start taking less efficient shots to exploit a potential weakness. This also may be difficult to accomplish when considering the strong CRO midfield, which will likely possess the ball as much as any ENG opponent yet. Modric is the guy, but Rakitic and Perisic surround him as other worthy ballhandlers. The high press seems to be growing more popular, but I'm not sure Southgate will employ it to induce errors because of the risk involved with giving CRO space.

ENG seems to be the younger squad and they will be fresher, so a quicker game will favor them. Sterling hasn't looked competent with the ball at his feet, but his speed is a nuisance and that will be something the CRO backline has to think about for 90+ minutes. ENG weren't given a penalty today, a shocking revelation considering what has happened in this tournament, and Kane was quiet. He missed the goal from the top of the box and only really contributed with possession besides that. If given a penalty, Kane will score it and that is important, but if not then it's possible he won't make much of an impact. Rashford has hardly played, Alli has been disappointing until the goal today and Lingard didn't do much at all. Maybe SWE executed its gameplan and just fell apart on the two goals, but i'm not sure ENG will worry the CRO backline too much.

They dominated a bad ARG team who does have some offensive talent, prior to that silencing NGA and then rotated vs ISL. DEN was a solid defensive squad who lived on the counter and lacked offensive creativity, but the only cracks came today vs RUS. Cheryshev's goal was against the run of play according to the FOX booth and may just have been an incredible shot, then the equalizer was in ET off great service and came during an onslaught to keep the host nation alive. I'm not sure I want to ding them too hard for today, it may just add value for the next round.

Offensively, CRO may have a lot of possession, but Mandzukic is going to have his work cut out for him against Stones and Maguire. Both are big, solid lads and i don't expect much to come through the air against them. Thankfully for CRO, they have other ways with their magnificent midfield and Kyle Walker to target. He has been the weakest link of that backline, even though he wasn't highlighted today, but I wonder if Southgate will change tactics at all to support him with maybe the often-substitute Dier to make life more difficult for the opposing midfield?

I would really appreciate thoughts on that and what we're thinking about traffic in the midfield when ENG is playing a 3-4-3 or if they adjust to a 4-4-2? I expect this one to be a toss-up and am hoping to catch 0.25 with CRO. I think they'll be a getting odds pick 'em instead
 
another solid writeup

I tend to think the game will be fairly open, and England will really like that .

My thinking is England to advance, and then will have a fairly big bet on France in WC final assuming they make it
 
open game seems to be good for ENG athletes, though they weren't really in one today and won easily, but that sounds like the game CRO wants to play and there's no guarantee how much ENG gets the ball?
 
possession somewhat over-rated nowadays, so I don't think England will mind not winning that battle. Hard to win the midfield when Croatia have probably the greatest midfielder in the world in Modric

Im pretty much all in on England in this one

like you pointed out, the keeper situation is concerning for Croatia and Pickford for England is having a great tournament.
 
Why do you think possession is overrated? I know theres games like Spain/Russia where one team possesses the other wins. But more possession means more chances, so what else do you measure to account for probability of a team winning— better finishing quality (so variable from day to day depending on how each player feels) ?
 
I think it is somewhat over rated, I don't think we should totally ignore it, I think XG is the better measure.

possession without chance creation is just possession , It isn't quite as coveted as it once was in the modern game ( Sweden average about 30% this WC).


tottaly off tangent but the high press has become a great equalizer in this game, you just don't really see it all at the international level because you need a lot of time/practice to implement it. Spain used it at times, England presses at time as well. High Risk/High Reward type of system
 
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xG seems to be the objective measure of chances, but i think it falls short in assessing anything besides where the ball is when it's kicked/headed. Ultimately soccer is about scoring when you have a good chance, it doesn't really matter how much you possess the ball but high possession means you're more likely to get those good chances than when you're defending the whole time.

I haven't been able to notice it, but i wonder if there are teams who intentionally suck their opponents in to get them on the front foot before countering because it's far easier to score on a counter than any other type of play. I think this is why 2-0 happens more frequently than 1-1 from a 1-0 game because the team pushing to get the equalizer often goes too far and exposes themselves in the back.

In terms of the semis, i think this could happen with any of these teams as they all can score. If I had to put the teams in order of who is the biggest threat to score, I think I'd go:
1. BEL
2. FRA
3. ENG
4. CRO

FRA and BEL are close, but Lukaku is the biggest threat remaining in the tournament and KDB is the best assist man when you consider who he can service. I think that's a big reason for why I'm going to be backing them despite some backline concerns
 
Like your thoughts GW. :cheers3:

Croatia are tired but playing on adrenalin and momentum. They should have more possession and space to use it, as England will not sit back like Denmark and Russia. Like Modric to exploit this, as long as they play him further forward as a "10". England may be young but they are also inexperienced at this level and may be caught out by this. They will be tough to beat in four years time, but they may get found out here

Also prefer Belgium to France. Belgium has shown far more quality, and especially with De Bruyne and Hazard, they are two players who can rip apart the French midfield who rely too much on Kante to protect the back four
 
rip apart sounds like a bold statement, but i think they'll put some serious pressure on FRA
 
Initial thoughts on ENG/CRO are very mixed, having the CRO future I'm not overly excited about getting too involved with them, seems one of the tougher matches to figure for me. ENG should be well on the attack and as mentioned, CRO should control the mid, what's that mean for chances? I dunno, just having a hard time figuring this one, can see anything happen really.

There is plenty of concern about the attack against a team off two extra time matches and concerned with potential effort issues from the back after just 3 days off.
 
Croatia losing vrsaljko is a huge loss for them

Most of their attacks have been down the right through his crossing, corluka his most likely replacement is about 5 years past it

That defense was already slow and just got slower, sterling and alli could have a field day
 
Reports are that there are fitness concerns around Henderson and Kane. Expect both to play, but fatigue is setting in in both teams.

Something else to consider is that the English players who all play in the Premier League, do not have a winter break. So how much is this going to effect their performances in the next two games? While each of the four teams managed to rest players in their third group game, how they manage their time between games is probably going to become even more important than it is taken into account. Also England's players, who are not used to playing in very warm conditions, will be hoping that it is not that for the semi

Anyway, just some thoughts ....
 
Croatia losing vrsaljko is a huge loss for them

Most of their attacks have been down the right through his crossing, corluka his most likely replacement is about 5 years past it

That defense was already slow and just got slower, sterling and alli could have a field day

great point about Vrsaljko, but what are Sterling and Alli actually going to do with all this space?
 
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Deli good for either a great scoring chance or a borderline red, your guess is as good as mine

ONLY reason I'd go against CRO is the miles (not travel per se)

Impossible to get a reasonable convo with a Brit anywhere right now tho, every one I've even tried thinks this is just a pre party. Kinda sucks because most enjoy the spirited conversation but that's been thrown out the window...I'm not sure either of these teams is better than the other
 
Btw as an aside I'm really curious how Qatar is gonna treat alcohol in 2022. Can't fathom they just don't allow it for a month when the world converges on a country the size of Nashville
 
makes me want to go even more
Have you read up about infrastructure/traffic in Doha?

It sounds miserable....like you show up 5 hours early and still miss the match miserable because you can't move

And now today they want to discuss moving it to 48 teams in 2022. It's gonna be such a shitshow, think about it
 
They've cut back on the number of stadiums as well....8 within an hour of Doha

Enjoy the parking lot and watching matches on your phones. Sober.
 
i didn't want to go originally because of terrorism, i figure the other issues will work themselves out
Terrorism would be the least of my concerns

Sitting on a highway for 8 hours w/o a hotel room while the game I paid $400 for tickets to...that's a concern

They're in for something else when it comes to lodging and accessibility for that many people
 
Deli good for either a great scoring chance or a borderline red, your guess is as good as mine

ONLY reason I'd go against CRO is the miles (not travel per se)

Impossible to get a reasonable convo with a Brit anywhere right now tho, every one I've even tried thinks this is just a pre party. Kinda sucks because most enjoy the spirited conversation but that's been thrown out the window...I'm not sure either of these teams is better than the other

Thats seems unfair to say just cause you are on other side
 
I will have a wager on England before the it goes off, I'm damn near as fair as it gets

The local Brits have lost the engaging conversation they should have. It's basically the opposite of unfair

Critical thinking teed: how do Croatia bread down England?

I don't necessarily think they do, but I'd love one fan of England to even tell me how Croatia win? Bout 8 failed today and plenty more will on Wednesday.

Why is it difficult to find the deficiencies in your squad? (Not yours, in general). There are deficiencies on every team in every sport, fans hate that
 
How do they?

Attack the weakness in the middle, especially if he sticks with same lineup and doesnt throw another dm in there to shadow luka. Henderson should get outclassed and quick passing around the box isnt how stones or maguire want to defend. They want crosses or through balls to chase on too. Walker should be targeted off the shoulder, he has below average awareness and is foul prone

Biggest issue with croatian teams attack is that they haven't created through the middle, their biggest advantage, and instead have tried to do it by going out wide, doing that they will be pushing too many up high, for a team that can defend and has a bit of speed up front and yhe best striker in the tourney left, it should be a problem
 
also KJ expecting the fanbase who cares the most about the sport they invented and have failed at for years in excruciating and embarrassing fashion to be reasonable is hilarious
 
How do they?

Attack the weakness in the middle, especially if he sticks with same lineup and doesnt throw another dm in there to shadow luka. Henderson should get outclassed and quick passing around the box isnt how stones or maguire want to defend. They want crosses or through balls to chase on too. Walker should be targeted off the shoulder, he has below average awareness and is foul prone

Biggest issue with croatian teams attack is that they haven't created through the middle, their biggest advantage, and instead have tried to do it by going out wide, doing that they will be pushing too many up high, for a team that can defend and has a bit of speed up front and yhe best striker in the tourney left, it should be a problem
Me likey

I deal with this constantly with the locals and leave soon thereafter, not a fun conversation usually. Fans.

I was getting crucified for bagging on Sterling all season for telling it like it is because he's "one of our own"....from the fans. GTFO, I know what I see...made me not want to hang so much with them
 
Actually what's funny is there are three teams that fail with all kinds of pressure, the beauty (for me anyway) is Belgium has the least pressure because they're way smaller than England and France while not only being ranked higher than both, imo better than both

Croatia just gonna sit back and enjoy the ride?
 
i think CRO is going to do their best to get the ball to Modric and let him make magic for 90' while the backline conserves whatever energy it has left. I'm not sure they will be tired in a WC semifinal, but Sterling's pace will be on display here likely drawing a defender and giving ENG some more room in the midfield. I'm not sure ENG has the playmakers to do much with that, but generating set pieces and corners should be considered creation and that is where Maguire and Stones can come up to help the lacking offense.

CRO will have opportunities to counter against those, but i can't imagine they'd be inviting ENG to the table by putting the ball out at every opportunity thus allowing more corner kicks because that is where ENG is most lethal (besides the penalty spot, of course)
 
Sorry didn't mean to insinuate they'll sit back on the pitch, can't see that

Just meant they're the one team that has virtually no pressure/expectations
 
Can’t wait for these matches. Today:

Over 2.5 +110
Frogs to advance -120
2-2 Draw +1400
Mbappe FGS
Mbappe AGS
Fellaini AGS
BTTS Yes -140
 
Never thought I'd type "France" that much in one post but let's roll...I think they get a couple today which should make most of those bets good and figured if it plays out how I think....2-1 France late and the opportunity for a cheap one on a counter will be there to bring home the 18-1 shot followed by me streaking around the neighborhood
 
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