Official Heisman Thread

VirginiaCavs said:
But a QB has more opportunities to wrack up numbers. Even overlooking his pathetic compl % vs Clemson and absence of passing yards vs Louisville. He gets to take a snap in shotgun. And a QB should anyhow be expected to lead his team. Barkley is having to receive the ball yards behind the line of scrimmage and already encounter defenders. And the occasional KR return and he has taken multiple for TD
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Place numbers aside and just see how a player takes over a game. Barkley doesn't have that same factor. What is his moment? 4th qtr against Ind? Jackson does it week in, week out. Neither play defense, so winning games is placed on a shelf. "Best player"
 
booksbestfriend said:
Place numbers aside and just see how a player takes over a game. Barkley doesn't have that same factor. What is his moment? 4th qtr against Ind? Jackson does it week in, week out. Neither play defense, so winning games is placed on a shelf. "Best player"
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Take over? You mean outshine the rest of his mediocre teammates and wrack up fluffy numbers (except against good secondaries) in losing efforts as the team leader (quarterback).
Barkley vs Michigan. KR touchdown and that long insane touchdown both vs OSU
 
You seem to want to give Barkley all-around numbers, but not allow a QB to have passing. Against tOSU, he had one long run. He was pretty much bottled up outside that run.

UL is averaging 37-pts a game, and it is him. The kid continues to put up rushing numbers, when everyone in the stadium knows he is going to do it.
 
You keep saying except against good secondaries .. who are the good secondaries?

378 yards passing vs Purdue; 148 more than purdue average yield. (purdue gives up average of 229.5 per game)
393 yards passing vs UNC; 151 more than UNC average yield. (UNC gives up an average of 242 per game)
317 yards passing vs clemson; 154 more than Clemson average yield. (clemson gives up an average of 162.9 per game)
299 yards passing vs kentst; 86 more than kentst average yield (kentst gives up an average of 212.9 per game)
354 yards passing vs ncstate; 90 more than ncsu average yield (ncsu gives up an average of 264 per game)
332 yards passing vs Boston College; 140 more than BC average (BC gives up an average of 191.7 per game)
156 yards passing vs FSU; 43 less than FSU average yield (ran for 178 that game fwiw) (FSU gives up 199 per game)
330 yards passing vs Wake; 132 more than wake average yield (Wake gives up an average of 198 per game)

I posted in a prior thread what Barkley does, vs what the average running back does against his opponents and it wasn't flattering .. .in fact ... it was largely below average. You see what Lamar does passing vs their average.


Now take all those pass stats above ..... and add them to the rushing stats which we already showed were superior to Barkley (note the strength of schedule for both teams is similar) and then tell me with a straight face Barkley deserves more consideration than Lamar.

The kid is doing it all and taking a beating in the process.
 
booksbestfriend said:
You seem to want to give Barkley all-around numbers, but not allow a QB to have passing. Against tOSU, he had one long run. He was pretty much bottled up outside that run.

UL is averaging 37-pts a game, and it is him. The kid continues to put up rushing numbers, when everyone in the stadium knows he is going to do it.
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Just saying that Jackson is not a good passer.

It is easier to score points when your defense gives up so many, so quickly. He is facing tired defenses. That big touchdown run that he had vs Wake was a garbage run with a big deficit. That is an example of fluffing up statistics.
 
Clemson allows an average of 28 pass attempts per game. Lamar threw it 42 times vs Clemson in that game. You might want to add all of the statistics to keep it honest, vk. And feel free to include his comp. % in that one.
 
I am only putting so much effort into it. I ask anyone to look at the numbers and please, please, please, please, please look at Barkley's numbers. He has been held under a hundred yards rushing in 5 out of 8 games!!! 5 of 8.

Feel free to post all of lamars stats. They are so beautiful that most fans should enjoy looking at them. Be sure to include QBR
 
Yeah I bet you love that 132 QBR vs Clemson that he only achieved as he threw two garbage touchdowns in the 4th quarter down 33-7. Like that garbage touchdown run he got vs Wake as the game was easily decided. Fluffy numbers and they aren't even that special. He did run well vs an FSU team that already gave up on its season though, i'll give you that one
 
VirginiaCavs said:
Just saying that Jackson is not a good passer.

It is easier to score points when your defense gives up so many, so quickly. He is facing tired defenses. That big touchdown run that he had vs Wake was a garbage run with a big deficit. That is an example of fluffing up statistics.
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He also broke one in the game vs FSU to seal that victory. I’m done. Gimme Lamar Jackson as the “best “ player in college football.
 
booksbestfriend said:
He also broke one in the game vs FSU to seal that victory. I’m done. Gimme Lamar Jackson as the “best “ player in college football.
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You yourself have commented on FSU already having given up on its season. Now you want to take that assessment of your team back?
 
I made the comment on FSU giving up this past week in the 2nd H vs BC. FSU competed the entire game vs Jackson. He is just a better player than you want to admit.
 
booksbestfriend said:
I made the comment on FSU giving up this past week in the 2nd H vs BC. FSU competed the entire game vs Jackson. He is just a better player than you want to admit.
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He's just constantly overrated. While he fails to give his team any chance to be competitive vs a defense like Clemson, Barkley is owning a top-ranked run defense like Michigan behind zero offensive line.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
He's just constantly overrated. While he fails to give his team any chance to be competitive vs a defense like Clemson, Barkley is owning a top-ranked run defense like Michigan behind zero offensive line.
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15 carries 108 yards. He had a 69 yard TD run on a play that tricked Michigan via direct snap. Rutgers ran a wildcat play that went for a similar sized TD this past week. Otherwise, he 14 carries for 39 yards. I would hardly say he owned them.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
He's just constantly overrated. While he fails to give his team any chance to be competitive vs a defense like Clemson, Barkley is owning a top-ranked run defense like Michigan behind zero offensive line.
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Top ranked Defense like who? Seriously, Vanderbilt would still be the top rank D in the land had they played Michigan’s schedule. Please. But keep pushing your PSU narrative all over the board, in every thread, just to get people riled up. I don’t what ties you have to that program. You go to Bama, have an UVA avatar, hold a soft spot in your heart for Colorado, and continually shove PSU in everybody’s face. Give it a break. I voiced “my” vote and that is not going to change. This is not a debate.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
You seem to see the assessment of Heisman as rooted in mere statistical computation. As such I agree that talking about Barkley is laughable. But I think statistics disguise more than they disclose about a player
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I cannot compete with the "I think Barkley is the best player just because he is" argument.
 
vk said:
15 carries 108 yards. He had a 69 yard TD run on a play that tricked Michigan via direct snap. Rutgers ran a wildcat play that went for a similar sized TD this past week. Otherwise, he 14 carries for 39 yards. I would hardly say he owned them.
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Receiving yards count, too.
A large rushing touchdown where you have to elude defenders and use breakaway speed uses some skill, i'd say.
Behind zero offensive line.
 
vk said:
I cannot compete with the "I think Barkley is the best player just because he is" argument.
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I cannot compete with "I think Jackson is the best player just because I selectively cherry-pick a few numbers" argument.
 
B.A.R. said:
Obviously I am with VK as far as espn hyping the guy...it has went way overboard.

Now, it isn't just ESPN.

This is Penn State too. The disgusting act of having him in the game in a blowout to throw a TD pass late in the 4th quarter was unreal. What if he got hurt? I mean we know James Franklin is one of the largest piles of shit in America but jesus...
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I dont think the guy is a POS, but kind of a rube. Anyway, he cost his team the game this weekend curling into his Franklin turtle shell. Great recruiter, great rah rah guy, great people person, bad in game coach to me. Guy literally set up for a FG with over 5 minutes left after passing ball down the field on OSU, positioning the ball for 11 point lead. Did same stuff in Rose Bowl.
 
booksbestfriend said:
Top ranked Defense like who? Seriously, Vanderbilt would still be the top rank D in the land had they played Michigan’s schedule. Please. But keep pushing your PSU narrative all over the board, in every thread, just to get people riled up. I don’t what ties you have to that program. You go to Bama, have an UVA avatar, hold a soft spot in your heart for Colorado, and continually shove PSU in everybody’s face. Give it a break. I voiced “my” vote and that is not going to change. This is not a debate.
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What a clever way of trying to delegitimize my Barkley point. Yep, i'm trying to get everybody riled up by arguing for Barkley. Those 0 seconds you met me in real life have given you solid insight into my intentions. Come on, man, this is a discussion, this is a forum, and this is the point of the thread.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
I cannot compete with "I think Jackson is the best player just because I selectively cherry-pick a few numbers" argument.
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I am not cherry picking his numbers. I posted his pass stats vs every fbs opponent. And I posted his aggregate rushing numbers. I would gladly post his game by game rushing stats too. They are insanely impressive.

His numbers are astounding and I have watched most of his games this year .. it's him. It's almost all him ... I will give his HC some credit for good play calling, but Lamar is it .. he is the ville this year. They have nothing else. Everyone knows it and still no-one can stop him.
 
The one good and determined defense that he faced stopped him. And for instance you didn't include his QB % vs Clemson or his stats after 3 quarters in the Clemson or Wake game. He is scoring so many garbage points, you don't include that deeper game analysis. And it hardly takes looking deep.

You know that you are not including all the stats, I had just pointed that out to you 3 minutes ago, surely you remember
 
Yeah those garbage-time yards and points vs NC State Clemson and Wake are his highlights vs not-bad competition.
 
The overrated asshole gets his team out of any game vs a good team then wracks up pretty statistics while the game is already decided. He is a thief.
 
Generally avoid these debates by the plague but I'll opine and then stay out of it after this:

Bryce Love deserves the Heisman, what he is doing this year is incredible. He is the only player I've ever seen miss a game and actually improve (in my eyes) his Heisman legitimacy. Lamar Jackson is the best player in CFB and has been for two straight years. Louisville would have two wins without him, maybe three. There is no more valuable player to their team in CFB and I would argue there hasn't been one in the past decade. He will have the opportunity to be a terrific NFL QB as well if he is given time to sit and develop (Mahomes type situation). Jackson has whizzed all over CFB for two straight seasons and this was a guy that never had a playbook at his high school. To say he came in as a raw prospect is a gross understatement. His upside is through the roof. Saquon Barkley shouldn't be mentioned in any Heisman conversation. He is the safest and best NFL prospect of the three we have discussed and quite possibly the best pro prospect of any player in CFB. Heisman, not a chance. Jonathan Taylor is a TrFr for Wisconsin and he has been far more deserving of Heisman hype than Barkley. Barkley will prob win the trophy because the voters are generally very dumb and the media threw their weight behind him since the pre-season.
 
There is at least an argument to be made for Mayfield.

Unlike Barkley Barkley now has three games where he has rushed for over 100. THREE! hahaha what a loser. This guy, this season, is the most overrated player since Reggie Bush.

Not surprising he doesn't have the character to get it done.

When asked about Jerry Sandusky, Joe Paterno said that Jerry was all about the safety of the kids. He said that when Jerry was driving, he noticed that he drove extra slow through the school zones.
 
Omg. You just wanna derail every thread vk? Not even worth responding to. Just grow up. If I don't respond Detroit probably will and then BAR gets pissed off and the whole forum too.
 
This thread wasn't derailed, he made excellent points about the Heisman candidate who shouldn't be
 
that sounds awfully close to a personal attack. I never attacked a member of this site.

I don't care. I would rather be personally attacked on CTG and have the mods look the other way than be a 10 year old who got sexually attacked while Joe Paterno looked the other way.
 
And guys who get tackled behind the line of scrimmage at an appalling rate are generally not considered heisman candidates.
 
4 more weeks to decide. I was really torn on Jackson last year following the poor Houston game and fumbling the game away to UK. But on balance he was the best over 12/13 games. We'll know more later for this year. Not a weekly award. You guys are as bad as the media who wants to hand it out every Monday!
 
vk said:
that sounds awfully close to a personal attack. I never attacked a member of this site.

I don't care. I would rather be personally attacked on CTG and have the mods look the other way than be a 10 year old who got sexually attacked while Joe Paterno looked the other way.
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"Met" behind the line of scrimmage. Big plays that he nevertheless makes. Threat on special teams and as a receiver--anywhere in open space. Yea those guys don't get talked about for Heisman, you're right.

Hmm I didn't say anything inaccurate, right? Only you did
 
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I know that Mayfield doesn't have the measurables but I wouldn't be upset if the Jets picked him in the first round of the 2018 draft. Darnold is still my number one guy but I think that Mayfield can be a very good NFL QB.
 
brewers888 said:
I know that Mayfield doesn't have the measurables but I wouldn't be upset if the Jets picked him in the first round of the 2018 draft. Darnold is still my number one guy but I think that Mayfield can be a very good NFL QB.
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What makes you think that Mayfield's skill set translates better to the NFL than a guy like Rosen or Allen?
 
VirginiaCavs said:
What makes you think that Mayfield's skill set translates better to the NFL than a guy like Rosen or Allen?
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I would take Rosen for sure over Mayfield but I am starting to question Allen. I know that his team lost a lot of players from last season but he just hasn't played well. I love the upside that he has but he is really the ultimate boom or bust prospect.

Mayfield just seems to have that "it" factor. I wish he was taller but I think he has more than enough arm strength. I think he has the chance to be a more athletic Drew Brees but I do admit there is plenty of risk in drafting a short QB in round one but if Brees and Wilson have made it why can't Mayfield.

Not to hijack this heisman thread but the Jets better pick a QB in round one and it better not be Lamar Jackson.
 
But Allen's receivers don't get separation from the defensive back, you know he lost his top 3 pass catchers and until Price came back any decent deep threat. Its really hard to get decent numbers when you don't have anyone to throw it to. Same thing is happening to Browning. Due to lack of deep threat Allen's coach wanted him to switch to a more horizonral passing game (hence way lower yards per attempt) and that's just not his game. The strategy just doesn't suit Allen's vertical passing proclivity.

Lol don't worry you can't ever be as bad as vk at derailing. Lol your Jets almöst won last week
 
When I think of "it" guys, I think of Manziel and Vince Young and Tebow. Flashy players, incredible athletes, winners and busts in the NFL
 
If someone from Penn State wins the trophy, I heard they are changing the name of the trophy from Heisman to Heislittleboy
 
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