NBA Finals Discussion thread
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nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Guess Bron probably needed to at least drag them to game 7, and maybe win it for MVP. Guy led the series, both teams, in points, assists, and rebounds, what more do you want, lol?
Iggy getting it and Curry not getting a vote is weird to me. Thought Curry did more than enough the last three games to win it, arguably.
Iggy getting it and Curry not getting a vote is weird to me. Thought Curry did more than enough the last three games to win it, arguably.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I think it's worth looking into these voters' 5dimes accounts.
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Lareux
Guest
Right. And he then had as many FGs as TOs in the Finals. I'm happy he led the team in scoring for one game, but he pretty much has a non-existent offensive game. I'm surprised anyone would even try to debate that...you may not be, but it seems odd you mention that he happen to lead the team in scoring for one game.
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
In (what turned out to be) the most pivotal game of the series for GS (Game 1),
what did Iguodala do? he had 15 pts, 2 ast, 3 reb, 1 stl, 1 blk
what did Curry do? he had 20 pts, 8 ast, 4 reb, 2 stl
How Curry didn't get a vote defies belief/credibility.
what did Iguodala do? he had 15 pts, 2 ast, 3 reb, 1 stl, 1 blk
what did Curry do? he had 20 pts, 8 ast, 4 reb, 2 stl
How Curry didn't get a vote defies belief/credibility.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
How was game 1 pivotal?
Most pivotal game was game 4.... it was when the warriors actually started competing rather than just going through the motions and appearing like the stage was too big. Iggy sacrificed a lot for the warriors and he was the x factor in this series for the warriors.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
X-factor and MVP are both obviously kind of subjective, but since when does the MVP go to the X-factor, as you understand the term? That would be kind of like Delly continuing to play out of his ass, the Cavs winning the series, and Delly getting MVP over Bron. X-factor votes. More extreme example than Iggy, but in the neighborhood. From a Cavs fan's perspective, it's hard to pick a GS MVP. Thought Green had some awesome games as well. But Curry took my heart most often as the series started to turn. I'd say he was at least the Warriors' MVP, and series MVP if you're not going to give the MVP to the stats king on the team that lost four.
twinkie13
In transit, arriving late.
you need to win it to get MVP
I would expect you of all people to be on board with that tip
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
Easy. GS lose they're then down 0-3 after 3. Nobody wins the NBA finals from down 0-3, on that point history is more than clear.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
I have no problem with Lebron not getting MVP, I was kind of joining in on commiserating about Arizonakid's prop bet. I was probably several hours late to the discussion. Lebron was the most deserving guy on a losing team I've ever seen, but it's hard to award MVP to a guy on a team that lost 2-4, and the last 3. But Iggy over Curry? That's out of nowhere.
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
Can't fail to agree. Cavs lost that series in losing Game 1. Early in the series when the Warriors seemed to be at odds within themselves psychologically, Cavs made hay except for the last stanza of that 1st game, and it turned out to be a mortal failing. Curry came up big at the end of that one.
twinkie13
In transit, arriving late.
i guess so
maybe Iverson back in the day? I don't know his stats tho other than that one monster game he had
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Lareux
Guest
LeBron had an absolutely historic Finals Twinkie, I'm not sure there's been another guy on a losing team to be even close to what LeBron was this Finals. He is the first player in history to lead both teams in Points, Rebounds, and Assists for a Finals series. If ever anyone was going to win the MVP after losing the Finals (sans it happening the one time it did, 45 years ago, the 1st time the trophy was awarded), it was LeBron this year.
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dudleysdad
Guest
I'm sorry but u can't give mvp to a guy on losing team.
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Lareux
Guest
Yeah, that seems to be the opinion of most people on here. If it ever were to happen though, this was the year, is the only point.
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dudleysdad
Guest
True.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
i honestly cannot believe you just said this
are you seriously playing monday morning quarterback and going back after the fact and changing one variable?
you cannot assume the rest of the series would have gone the same way
P-Unit
Beacon of Calmness
especially a team that lost 4-2. maybe if you lose 4-3 then I can see it, but not when it's 4-2.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
For being one of the seemingly brighter people on this site, that is an unbelievably ridiculous statement to make.
Golden State loses game 1, yet they're still losing games 2 and 3? The Warriors don't flip on the switch after game 1 instead of thinking it's going to be a walk in the park? Kerr doesn't slot Iguodala into the lineup in favour of Bogut sooner than game 4?
If you wanted to argue the "what if" of Irving not going down, that's one thing, but to make a presumption like that and try to pass it off as fact, that's quite another.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
Then let's change the name of the award please. Because it most certainly is not the most valuable player. It's a misnomer.
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
Who says they're not?
Who says the adjustments that were obviously needed after G1's win but that didn't come would've come had they lost? I call BS on that. Kerr would've done exactly what he did anyway: He didn't panic after G1's scare and for G2 stuck with what had been working right up until that point throughout the playoffs - win or lose G1, that's the choice he'd have made for G2. Then being down 0-2 and playing G3 in Cleveland, I might credit him with tinkering with something different, but even then he'd be facing having lost 2 games by the narrowest of margins (in this scenario, G1 would've been a 1 possession loss in regulation), hardly indicating that his team's make-up/approach was somehow fatally flawed. In reality he only made his significant moves after his team had put in 3 straight poor performances (by their own previous standards), when he could no longer assume those previous performances were a matter of giving his normal rotation room to refind its form, but rather had to do with countering the approach of their opponent. And who is to say Iguodala makes the impact he does against a Cavs team that's not yet rundown (like they began to show in G4 facing a must win game from their pov) after 3 intensive efforts? It was the Cavs first home finals playoff game in approaching a decade. They played out of their minds to manage the (at one time) 68-48 lead they did. Again I call BS to 1 player halting the wave of Cavs energy evidenced that night.
Cavs lost that series losing G1, for me it's as plain as day. Naturally I can appreciate the pov which goes it's automatic GS would've won either G2 or 3 had they lost G1. I simply see that pov as flawed.
ArizonaKid
Pretty much a regular
No their not. Golden State wins game 2 if they had lost game 1.
Biggest game for Cleveland was game 2, down 0-1 after a gut-wrenching loss in OT of game 1 w/ Kyrie being lost for the series and LeBron dragged his team to victory...Curry no showed in a game that if they win the series might have been a sweep. Biggest game for Golden State was game 4, being down 2-1 Iggy and Curry carried them to victory with Curry hitting a big three right at the end of the 3rd quarter as the Cavs had just pulled within 3.
I'm not saying that anything nefarious happened, but for Curry not to garner a single vote tells me that there was some collaboration to make sure the MVP went to a player on the winning team. Iggy is a very respected guy and the media likes him, he sacrificed his stats this season for the good of the team. He has been one of my favorites since I first saw him in an Arizona jersey, but he wasn't MVP over LeBron. I don't care if he was on the losing team, if it weren't for him the Cavs would have legitimately lost every game by 25 points. Pull LeBron and Iggy out of this series and Golden State sweeps them.
Anyone have any stats on Cleveland's shooting when LeBron was off the court ? I know they shot 0-22 from 3 which is pretty telling.
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emkee
The Truth Is Out There
LeBron was the best player on a team of scrubs, of course he deserves the MVP for the Cavs but not the Finals MVP.
Who else was gonna score and assist on a team that lost it's All Star PG in Game 1 but the guy who considers himself the best player in the world.
He had to and wanted to carry the team. Giving him the MVP on the team that lost would have been super-weak.
Curry not getting a vote is very surprising. Had him pegged as Finals MVP from Game 4 onwards with Iggy getting honorable mention.
Iggy could have lost them a game at the FT line.
Put it down to the power of social media, Iggy the sexy pick but Curry did enough to deserve it and should have won it.
Who else was gonna score and assist on a team that lost it's All Star PG in Game 1 but the guy who considers himself the best player in the world.
He had to and wanted to carry the team. Giving him the MVP on the team that lost would have been super-weak.
Curry not getting a vote is very surprising. Had him pegged as Finals MVP from Game 4 onwards with Iggy getting honorable mention.
Iggy could have lost them a game at the FT line.
Put it down to the power of social media, Iggy the sexy pick but Curry did enough to deserve it and should have won it.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
I honestly believe the vote swung the second LeBron declared himself "the best player in the world". True or not (probably true), he probably lost the support of anyone who might have been looking at it as possibly a sympathy vote.
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Lareux
Guest
Who says they definitely are though? Everything would have been different in the following games had GS lost Game 1. You can't simply say that if they lost G1 they'd have automatically lost Games 2 and 3. That pov and logic is equally as flawed.
And I don't think anyone is saying GS automatically wins either Game 2 or 3 if they lose Game 1, but you certainly are saying that they would have lost Games 2 and 3 had they lost Game 1.
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Lareux
Guest
Exactly. lol
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Lareux
Guest
That comes up all the time, across all sports. It's NOT the Most Valuable Player that wins the award in almost every single MVP vote, regardless of what the name of the award implies. So you're right, it is a misnomer, but it's been like that forever, in every single sport. It's the best player, or the player who has had the best season...but in the case of playoff series/awards, that MVP award almost always goes to a player on the winning team, that's just how it is.
In this case, even if it were re-named the MOP, as it is in the NCAAB tourney, LeBron would/could have still won it. He didn't win simply because his team didn't win the title.
emkee
The Truth Is Out There
Lebron dragged his team to victory in Game 2 because he was rewarded by the refs at the line.
He shot 24% FG's (11-35) that game to Curry's 22% but was 77% (14-18) at the charity stripe.
Cavs were awarded 15 more FT's in a game decided by 2 points.
James went 2-10 FG's in the 4th quarter and OT of Game 2 but was awarded 10 FT's which ultimately decided the game.
Refs played a part in extending this series and James' legacy. Dude's big numbers are somewhat flawed.
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Lareux
Guest
No he didn't. How could he have had better #s when what LeBron just did has never been done by anyone in the history of the Finals?
I don't disagree that someone shouldn't win MVP if their team lost, but let's stop with anyone else ever having had better #s than LeBron just did when it's a fact that they did not.
ArizonaKid
Pretty much a regular
Iverson most definately didn't have better stats than Lebron and it's really even close, besides the most dominant player who averaged 33 and 16 was Shaq who deserved every single vote.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
emkee
The Truth Is Out There
He played with a bunch of nobodies and no PG, he should average those numbers. The points were blown out because of volume of shots and gifted FT's.
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Lareux
Guest
Either way it's wrong. They weren't comparable at all. Which other stats are we speaking of? Steals seems to be the only one that hasn't been brought up.
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Lareux
Guest
Ummmm...so did AI. Didn't we just have this discussion not too long ago? Now AI had an all star cast around him? And hahahahaha at mentioning volume shooting on a poor team and thinking that AI didn't do the same exact thing. That's hilarious Em.
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Lareux
Guest
Em, the big issue here is that you're not capable of being very objective. You don't like LeBron, we all get that....and you're clearly a pretty big AI fan seeing as how you're from Philly. It's pointless to "discuss" things if people can't be objective.
emkee
The Truth Is Out There
AI played more minutes, had a better FG and FT %, committed less TO's , averaged more steals and averaged .2 less in points. There is no comparison in assists and rebounds, James wins that.
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Lareux
Guest
Played more minutes is now something worthy of this discussion? How many more minutes did he play? (couldn't have been more than a minute or two)
Of course you were going to go to the percentages, that's really all there is to hang your hat on....who cares, again MJ shot under 45% in his last 3 Finals appearances...what does that even matter? He committed a couple less turnovers a game (was it even that much, or was it a fraction, as it was for PPG?) , which is probably expected since you just said LeBron was playing PG and AI wasn't...don't the PGs usually end up with more TO's since they handle the ball more?...and had more steals (AI was always among the leaders in steals). If we're going to use minutes played as some barometer, can we also use overall defense and then how the team performed when each player was on the floor vs when they were off of it?
emkee
The Truth Is Out There
I'm a big LeBron fan or at least was til he checked out in last season's Finals and subsequently ditched Miami.
I'm also somewhat objective, point is LBJ should not have been considered for Finals MVP on a losing team. If you brush over the numbers they look great but in clutch time they aren't.
ArizonaKid
Pretty much a regular
And with a better team vs a lesser opponent AI lost in 5 while LeBron took a superior oppenent to 6 games. And iverson did not outshoot his team % wise while leBron did.
LeBron averaged 13 boards this Finals...i'd put good money that AI never had 13 boards in a single game ever. More than doubled him in assists as well.
LeBron averaged 13 boards this Finals...i'd put good money that AI never had 13 boards in a single game ever. More than doubled him in assists as well.
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Lareux
Guest
But most have agreed with you (and I certainly have as I just typed again a few posts ago) about him not getting MVP on the losing team.
The fact remains that what LeBron just did has never been done in the history of the NBA...and you're acting like it's no big deal and that AI was better somehow. That's not being objective, that's being a fan.
Why did it take you that long to stop being a LeBron fan though? He had "checked out" in a playoff series long before last season....AND he ditched Cleveland a while ago as well.
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Lareux
Guest
I understand too....he's sitting in his living room with his face painted red, white, and blue with his AI jersey on. :tiphat:
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