EC Finals: Game Two Discussion and Analysis

B.A.R.

B.A.R.

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Staff member
I have a feeling this thread is going to get long and heated but thats life.

LeBron James

Michael Jordan took till about age 28-29 to understand that making your teammates better would help you succeed in your ultimate goal which is a championship. Now, the times he tried that when he was younger, he would get frustrated. Maybe his teammates were not good enough that night or the other team was better. His idea then was just to do it himslef the next game. This is why his Bulls teams always failed in their ultimate quest for many years.

Tonight, and throughout the playoffs really, James has been using his teammates very well. He is a very unselfish superstar that really does want to win. His gameplan early tonight was brilliant. Now, why was it brilliant? Two reasons; One, its huge to boost the confidence of teammates on the road in a tough venue. Two, James knows that no team defends him as well as Detroit. Prince is long and the help defense is always there. Not much will come easy. He'll have his moments but he won;t win this series by himself.

Cavs fans have reason to worry though. He will obviously get a lot of pressure through the media to be more aggressive. Thats not going to help the Cavs one bit. If he had forced things more in the second half tonight Detroit would have won by 6-10 points. His teammates made the big shots in the 4th quarter. I have a feeling that he will force the issue a bit too much on Thursday and that will only hurt the Cavs chances. He may well score 30 but it will prolly take 25-30 shots to get there.

Game One Thoughts

Hamilton and Rasheed were the only two Stons to provie any consistency on the offensive end. Yes, the Cavs are very good defensively but Prince, Billups and Dice seemed way out of sync. Every shot Prince put up was short right from the onset. He was brilliant as a facilitator from the post and obviously defensively. Understandebly defending James will take a lot of energy out of anyone but this was weird to me for a game one. Billups, other than his usual 4th quarter looked relucatant many times. Dice had a great March/Aptril where it seemd like he couldn't miss and now he can't make a shot. Basically its encouraging DET escaped with a win not playing that well.

Big Z played very well for the Cavs. Detroit can really abuse him on the one end as they did with Webber/Wallace at the start of the third quarter. He countered with 3 nice post moves and then some long jumpshots in the 4th quarter. Gooden was silent as I expected. Sideshow was a thorn as always.

Lebron Zero FreeThrows

This may be the shocking sta of the night. In all honesty though the only questionable non-call was the upfake and wild shot in 4th. Most players won't get that bail-out call so I am glad this officiating crew tonight didn't have any agenda. CLE still got the benefit slightly for being on road but otherwise a fairly called game. Detroit mising up man on man with Prince and different looks from the zone makes it very difficult for James to get in the lane. I am sure Brown will make some adjustments for him to maybe get him in post a bit more and whatnot.

Chris Webber

I have seen a lot of ripping on CWebb as usual but he was instrumental in one of the more important periods of the game. That early third quarter run he was able to get inside often against Z and Gooden. Without foul trouble he can do some damage down there.

Rasheed Wallace

Simply the best all-around player on either team. Thats no slap to Bron..I am taking in account offense and defense. He hit huge shots in the 4th, buckled down the glass after the half and blocked at least 6 shots. He is the most underrated player in the league.



Early take on Game 2:

Detroit will play much better. This was their ho-hum game they always have somewhere in a series. James will attack early and thats a good thing for Detroit. A bit higher scoring but in the end Detroit is simply better and the Cavs will have to wait to get back to the 'Q' to get a win.

:shake:
 
Yeah, I watched the first five-ish minutes of this game before it was just too horrific to watch any more. I'd seen enough to know one thing, these were the flat Pistons, the unmotivated Pistons, and had I bet them I'd have been wanting to pull my hair out.

I tend to agree with Big Al, why shouldn't one when he's talking about a team he knows as good as anybody. But I agree anyway. If the Pistons come out and play their game, with passion and motivation, they beat this Cavs team by six to ten.

Even tonight, at least early, they were getting open looks, they just weren't hitting them.

I understand the point about LeBron needing to get the rest of his team involved, but the reality is, the rest of his team isn't very good. So he's stuck, does he try to take over the game and win it himself when Detroit happens to be a team that guards him well, or does he try to get his teammates involved knowing that there's a real possibility they won't get it done.

It's a tough call, one I don't envy him having to make.

But I look at this game and even though I only saw a small part of it, it seems to confirm what I suspected in this series. On a level playing field, Detroit's a more talented, more coheisve team.

There's no reason they shouldn't win this series in five or six.
 
perfect positioning for stern's boys to steal game 2.

it is playing out nice.
 
I kinda feel for Bron, Joe. You can say takev over all you want but the driving lanes were not there and Prince has an incredible wingspan. I know people will say that he has done it b4 against Detroit but this defense they have for this series has been very successful against James this season.

Oh yeah..ask Deng and Dwight Howard about the DET defense..lol
 
2 things.
Didnt see 1 minute of Game 1, I was watching the bachelor.
Secondly the people who bash lebron for passing were probablly the same who praised Jordan for passing to Kerr. One slight difference is Jordan has hit the big shot and isnt afraid to take it, Lebron looks scared out there.

Good Luck, and Congrats to Stern, this will be the lowest rated Conf Finals and Finals of all time . :cheers:
 
You guys think bron goes for 0 ft's in game 2? lol

Cavs should have won this game..Detroit dodged a bullet.

IF they come out flat again they will lose.
 
hunt, lebron is crap. so is his team. his coach. lay the chalk bro. detroit has this in 4.
 
I don't feel bad for him for one reason, he's 'the' guy. He's making huge sums of money, HUGE sums of money. So that he doesn't really have the talent around him right now or that he has a difficult task matching up against Detroit really doesn't move me.

This is why Craig Sager can't wait to put LB's d*ck in his mouth in pregame, because he's supposed to just be that good. Of course, all that his still hype yet to be paid off, but that's how it's supposed to be.

Does it suck for him some, yeah, maybe, but it's not as if he isn't being very well compensated in multiple ways for being put in that position.

I really agree with you here, he's just running into a more complete team.

It's the same with the Spurs, really. Are they one of the great teams of all time, no. But they're the best at playing as a team the West has, and as much as Stern et. al. want the game to be about one person, the only one or two guys in the league potentially good enough to be that guy have too much dead weight weighing them down to realistically win without help from outside sources.
 
I just think it is going to be a dogfight and the cavs will steal 1 in Detroit.

Detroit just doesn't seem to ever get motivated for this cavs team and they struggle against the cavs D.

Lebron will go to the hole early and often just like last year and it will pay dividends.
 
B.A.R. said:
I kinda feel for Bron, Joe. You can say takev over all you want but the driving lanes were not there and Prince has an incredible wingspan. I know people will say that he has done it b4 against Detroit but this defense they have for this series has been very successful against James this season.

Oh yeah..ask Deng and Dwight Howard about the DET defense..lol
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DWade should send LeFraud some film of last year's playoffs. :Wacka%20Wacka:
 
Interesting take on Lebron in game 1 BAR, but I think the truth lies (as always?) in between you and Charles Barkley. Sir Charles feels like Lebron should forget about asts and just be a scorer. I love that he is always looking to get his teammates involved, but the 0 FT stat is unbelievable, especially the way the NBA is today, look how the Heat won last year: wade.. drive and get fouled, drive and get fouled (Shaq helped too). It's clearly important for him to get his teammates involved, but everytime he can, he should get to the rim. I mean, at somepoint they'll just completley swamp him, and that's when he needs to get rid of it. He had an easy layup on that last play, but he passed it up. Even though Donyell had a great shot, he shouldn't even have been looking for him at that point, the game was practically tied. Barkley said when he was in that type of situation, with the game on the line, if he had an open lane, he felt like there was noone else in the arena "just him and the rim." Lebron needs to get a little bit of that in him, preferably soon, for the Cavs to have a shot in this series.
 
Very good read BAR...Agree with it all...Sheed killed us last night...Now Ive watched Sheed for years being a big time Heel fan,even back then and his whole NBA career..He is so good at popping out after the pick and hitting the wide open jumper, or 3..If our lame ass coaching staff can find a way to limit that,or even reconize that,then that will help big time...I really dont know what to say about Lebron right now.I know he took it easy the last 2 series to be geared up for this one, I just thought he woulda showed it the whole series,not after they get their backs against the wall..I understand the defense that Detroit puts on him,I understand Prince is long and gives him trouble, but hes the man, simple as that. He wasnt moving away from the ball,just stood there. Then you see the last possesion,he moved quicker and faster there then he did all game. Its like he knows he can get to the hole anytime but makes bad decisions when to do it,and that reflects the coaching staff and is 1 of the reasons I cant stand Brown..He is so scared to say anything to Lebron. Either way, Game 2 is gonna be a disaster for us IMO,so obvisouly its a no play for me...I thought we would split the first 2 in Detroit ,that was the one we we suppose to win and screwed it up. The Pistons wont give us another chance like that in B2B games..Just amazing, the franchise player,the best player on the court doesnt score in the last 6+ mins of a close, important playoff game(not even sure if he shot).....GL
 
ATLHawksBandwagon said:
Interesting take on Lebron in game 1 BAR, but I think the truth lies (as always?) in between you and Charles Barkley. Sir Charles feels like Lebron should forget about asts and just be a scorer. I love that he is always looking to get his teammates involved, but the 0 FT stat is unbelievable, especially the way the NBA is today, look how the Heat won last year: wade.. drive and get fouled, drive and get fouled (Shaq helped too). It's clearly important for him to get his teammates involved, but everytime he can, he should get to the rim. I mean, at somepoint they'll just completley swamp him, and that's when he needs to get rid of it. He had an easy layup on that last play, but he passed it up. Even though Donyell had a great shot, he shouldn't even have been looking for him at that point, the game was practically tied. Barkley said when he was in that type of situation, with the game on the line, if he had an open lane, he felt like there was noone else in the arena "just him and the rim." Lebron needs to get a little bit of that in him, preferably soon, for the Cavs to have a shot in this series.
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The last play was the most open he had been at the basket but they already had the play. I agree with everyone though he should have just went with it. He had it.

He will shoot more FT's in game 2. Its a given. Its the NBA. Not to mention how much more aggressive he will be. That being said it won't be good in tghe overall scheme of things.
 
jimbof20 said:
Very good read BAR...Agree with it all...Sheed killed us last night...Now Ive watched Sheed for years being a big time Heel fan,even back then and his whole NBA career..He is so good at popping out after the pick and hitting the wide open jumper, or 3..If our lame ass coaching staff can find a way to limit that,or even reconize that,then that will help big time...I really dont know what to say about Lebron right now.I know he took it easy the last 2 series to be geared up for this one, I just thought he woulda showed it the whole series,not after they get their backs against the wall..I understand the defense that Detroit puts on him,I understand Prince is long and gives him trouble, but hes the man, simple as that. He wasnt moving away from the ball,just stood there. Then you see the last possesion,he moved quicker and faster there then he did all game. Its like he knows he can get to the hole anytime but makes bad decisions when to do it,and that reflects the coaching staff and is 1 of the reasons I cant stand Brown..He is so scared to say anything to Lebron. Either way, Game 2 is gonna be a disaster for us IMO,so obvisouly its a no play for me...I thought we would split the first 2 in Detroit ,that was the one we we suppose to win and screwed it up. The Pistons wont give us another chance like that in B2B games..Just amazing, the franchise player,the best player on the court doesnt score in the last 6+ mins of a close, important playoff game(not even sure if he shot).....GL
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Good post bro. Thats one difference this year. Sheed sucked for 3.25 games of this series last year and was injured and ineffective for the last 3.75 games. He's healthy, motivated and wants his ring back. He's tough when he's like that. Getting 15-12-7(blocks) is no joke.
 
if every game is like Game 1, will be a great series. im looking forward to it. GL everyone
 
B.A.R. said:
Good post bro. Thats one difference this year. Sheed sucked for 3.25 games of this series last year and was injured and ineffective for the last 3.75 games. He's healthy, motivated and wants his ring back. He's tough when he's like that. Getting 15-12-7(blocks) is no joke.
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Your right about him being motivated,thats for sure. But to me at least,its just a given on what hes gonna go. Just stick with him and step out on him. Hes not gonna backdoor you, hes not gonna blow by you. What you see is what you get. But I know its a lot easier said then done. But without him in the 4th down the strech,we pull away. Who know. Im just really intersted to see who shows up Thurs.
 
Lebron will probably get about 10 fts in game 2 and like 15 in game 3 if the pistons win game 2, but so goes the nba.

sheed did have a huge game and i think he is the prototype nba playoff bigman (if that's even a classification) and i agree even that he is the most underrated nba player because of this reason, i mean the guy's like having robert horry on your team for 25-30 minutes a game instead of just the last 2.

however, there is no way sheed is even close to being as good of a player as lebron, that's just wrong. maybe he is more playoff savvy, but no way better.


it's essential to have a big man who can shoot the 3 in nba playoff games, why? because they can get the open look when their guy helps on D. in end game situations, you can almost guarentee you will be able to set up an open shot if your slasher can penetrate.

mike brown made this decision and his team, and especially his superstar executed the play to perfection. after seeing marshall shoot in game 6 vs nj, i'd say he had almost a 50-50 shot of knocking a (1) wide open (2) short corner three point shot. sheed sucked in on lebron like he should have, then when lebron passed to the corner sheed looked like he just dropped his blunt and it was burning a hole in his pants and didn't even get a hand up or begin to close out on marshall.

even if Bron did make that Lay-up instead of passing, the pistons 1. would have had 5 seconds to win in regulation 2. had a home crowd, a hot clutch pg and experience and about all the cavs had going for them were a tiring big Z and the only coach left who is worse than flip saunders. good call mike, i'd have gone for the 3 ball too.


now i don't think mike brown is a good coach by any stretch, but i think the guy made the right call at the end of the game, getting a shot at the game one win. however, if brown wants marshall to hit that shot, he's gotta get him off the bench and get him more than 10 minutes and 4 shots (that was the first 3 he even attempted!!) maybe damon jones was the best option as a pure shooter coming in cold of the bench(ala paxon/kerr..), marshall is more of a streak shooter, certainly no big shot bob.

so yeah detroit will prolly play too much better in game 2 for the cavs to win, but remember sheed was about2 inches to the left and back rim from being the goat in game 1 for leaving marshall wide-f-inopen for the short porch 3 with a 2 point lead!!
 
IMO Lbj cant help it if he passes the ball when he sees an open man..He grew up playing point..Correct me if Im wrong, but he played PG in his rookie season?Right? Its just his instinct taking over..Ala Magic..That last pass to Marshal was his PG gut telling him to pass the ball to the open guy at the corner for the win..Im hoping he continues to be unselfish tonight coz im taking Det later..hehe..Gl tonight guys..
 
Just feel compelled to add something here. LeBron made a terrible decision passing off for the 3. He was 1 step away from a monster dunk and a guaranteed 2 pt game-tying play. DET would have gotten the ball back, got fouled, and could have possibly missed a FT. Possibly. The other scenario (if Donyell hit the 3) is as bad. A low % shot from a guy that just happened to have a good night. Then what? They go up by 1 pt. So what. LBJ choked mightily, as he often does, due to his youth. Plain and simple. No time in college. A handful of years in the big leagues. Think of it this way. In any scenario, knowing what you know today, would you want to have DWade on the court in the 4th quarter, or LBJ? A finisher, or a passer?
 
I find it entertaining if not annoying that people say Lebron should have taken the shot. The play was designed by the coach. the player follows what the coach has to say. End of story. If marshall hits the 3 and they win, everyone praises lebron for drawing rasheed and leaving marshall open for a 3 which he is now a specialist. Their game plan was working the whole game. Game 1 on the road you go for the win, you dont go for the tie, and Brown new that if it went to ot, chaincy would have taken over and won the game.

You got guys on tv, radio and websites saying that play was a bad decision, you dont hear any players, former players or coaches saying that play was a bad decision. They all say Lebron not going to the basket early in the game or even in the 2nd half was a bad decision.

btw , i would like to have seen if Lebron would have dunked or gotten fouled or blocked by rasheed as he was coming from the week side on that last play.
 
It was actually a nice play by Mike Brown. When Lebron goes to the hole, there are usually 2-3 people surrounding him leaving his teammates wide open. His teammates just has to make 'em shots.
 
thanks steed and beanbag.

the thing that beanbag says about chauncy taking over in o.t. or at the end of regulation + chances of lebron missing a clutch ft if sheed fouls him = they got the shot they drew up, executed to perfection, missed the shot. they better get that out of their heads pdq if they want to make this a series
 
Beanbag said:
I find it entertaining if not annoying that people say Lebron should have taken the shot. The play was designed by the coach. the player follows what the coach has to say. End of story. If marshall hits the 3 and they win, everyone praises lebron for drawing rasheed and leaving marshall open for a 3 which he is now a specialist. Their game plan was working the whole game. Game 1 on the road you go for the win, you dont go for the tie, and Brown new that if it went to ot, chaincy would have taken over and won the game.

You got guys on tv, radio and websites saying that play was a bad decision, you dont hear any players, former players or coaches saying that play was a bad decision. They all say Lebron not going to the basket early in the game or even in the 2nd half was a bad decision.

btw , i would like to have seen if Lebron would have dunked or gotten fouled or blocked by rasheed as he was coming from the week side on that last play.
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Beanbag, all good points. Don't mean to offend. It would have been great if Donyell hit the 3ptr. Then DET would have won shooting FTs. It was a lose lose sitation in my eyes, and you are correct, anything that could have helped the outcome of the game should have happened 20 mins earlier when LBJ kept getting denied his shots. You are also correct that the weakside was right there and could have tipped away the ball. I do though disagree that a designed play needs to be followed to a T. The reality is that LBJ had a clear move to the basket. His options were to continue to go to the hole or pass. In that split second, regardless of the play design, a true finisher makes the ultimate decision. What if the lane was completely open and there was no one there to challenge the shot? SHould he still kick it out to Donyell because it was a designed play? I'm not sure either way. I just wanted to clarify my earlier post.
 
Game 2 Picks

Alright. I have been tredding lightly in the conference finals. A 2-0 start in total and I like both the side and total tonight.

Tonight LeBron is going to be more agressive. Thats good and bad for CLE. It may be good early but basd late. He will prolly get 10-15 FT's. This will be mostly from early transistion attacking. Thats when he will be able to get to the hoop easiest.

Detroit played petty horrid in game one. The only place to go is up from there. Cleveland supporting cast played damn well. Thats gonna be hard to duplciate.

You may think LeBron controls the outcome tonight. Your right. He may try and prove critics wrong and essentially lose theg ame by himself.



Detroit 95
Clevland 85

You may be shocked by the high score prediction. Don't be.

Detroit -5.5 -110 6 units
Detroit over 173.5 -110 3 units

gl to all tonight
 
didnt get to watch game 1. thanks for the thread bar..gonna just blind tail u here on the side that is
 
Was actually liking the over as well..Hope u lose the other though:smiley_acbe: ....well I take that back..If you win the game SU,then I hope you cover....
 
You know what? Im not sure if Lebron is more aggressive tonight,at least early on..One thing Ive learned is he is a stubborn player..Nobody ever has talked him outta his game..I think he tries to prove everybody in the country wrong and show he can win this by playing his game...I surely wouldnt be surprised if he came out quiet tonight.
 
I thought about that too jimbof. Every indication in his interviews tells otherwise. He is gonna try and run through brickwalls. He is going to move the ball upcourt faster after missed Stons shots/turnovers.

We'll see...should be interesting.
 
BAR, glad you are on Detroit also, although I am not surprised. I made one of my biggest bets on this one, mostly because I want to try to make as much money before the NBA is done. Game 1 was ugly to watch, I still can't believe we won. Sheed and RIP were the only ones that played well, maybe Webber in 3rd. Lebron will definitely be more aggressive but he doesn't have to go against guys like Prince very often. I like the over but I had the over in game one and i never even had a chance. Good luck
 
Just 1 thing to add to this thread.

This will be the best playoff series this year.

It's OHIO vs MICHIGAN.

It's worst enemies.

It's two of the most evenly-matched teams.

Game 1 decided by a 3 pointer that bounces off the rim...

Game 2... the sky is the limit

GL everyone on your bets. I'll be having a couple beers and cheering on mah boys to roll over the ever-so-resilient stons...

ENJOY the GAME!
 
you enjoy yourself bro..

Its pretty much me against the world...

Looking at several sites today 4 outta 5 posters have Cavs and Under

Ride or Collide!
 
Good luck with the Stones. I'm riding with the under though. Not sure where one would find reason to go against the under streak these two teams have put together. I can't bet an over here until they actually prove they can score against each other. Hope it lands on 174 for both of our interests.
 
Weird half.

James played better. He still can barely touch rim on a jumpshot but had a few nice drives and two transition opportunities.

Detroit had every chance to be up around 10 after the first qtr. They had the shots they wanted on offense and had CLE lockdowned mostly. They didn't do. Cleveland then opened the 2nd by stretching the defense and ended it with a helluva run....

Flip messed up not putting Billups back in the second he saw Damon Jones hit the floor. That would have stemmed the tide a bit. Bad coaching there. Damon is such a liabilty. We only ended up getting 4 points against him and he got a 3 ball and an assist I believe to counter that.



2nd half....

Detroit -8 -105 10 units

Billups/Wallace and Hamilton will have to step up. Cavs ain;t gonna shoot 60 percent like they did in 2nd. I still like the job we did on James in first half. Credit him with not forcing too much.

Detroit scores 52 in 2nd half...

DET 90
CLE 87
 
Great defense by DET but feel they could of had a few more points..may haunt them..

CLE's offense is pure junk right now against this defense....good adjustment late tho getting some shooters in..

The last three of third should have been negated tho..should of been a 3 second violation with the extra swing pass..

Prince has been short-arming every shot since the series began. I don;t buy the talk that he gets tired guarding Bron. I'll buy that late in games and later in series. He had same kinda responsibilty last series with Deng.
 
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