2017 Baseball HOF Thread

twinkie13

twinkie13

In transit, arriving late.
Always the best debate, as baseball holds HOF the most prestigious of all the major sports.

I'll start with a few, like to see Lar, "Hotsauce" Tip, and Job and others chime in.....

Tim Raines.....I hope he gets in. One of my fave players. Last year of eligibility. Who knows? I'd like him in for selfish reasons...

Jeff Bagwell....gotta get in right?


Discuss and add
 
Oh and the Trevor Hoffman debate will arise I'm sure...

Gotta be in, but the closer thing will come up
 
The only two that really matter are Bonds and Clemens. Both should obviously be in, gonna be interesting to see if the voters have loosened a bit and put them in this year. Top 5 player and top 5 pitcher of all time. If you wanna put something on their plaque about PEDs, go right ahead. But not having those 2 in the HOF (and Pete Rose, for that matter) is a joke.
 
The funny thing about Raines is that he admittedly used blow during his playing days. He even said that he slid head first so he didn't break the vial of cocaine he had in his back pocket.

Not that I care, or think that should keep him out in any way...just funny when you hear the talk about PEDs yet Raines and his blow aren't given a mention.
 
Lareux said:
The funny thing about Raines is that he admittedly used blow during his playing days. He even said that he slid head first so he didn't break the vial of cocaine he had in his back pocket.

Not that I care, or think that should keep him out in any way...just funny when you hear the talk about PEDs yet Raines and his blow aren't given a mention.
Click to expand...
I believe Murray Chass (New York Times) said he would never vote for Raines because of his coke use. I'll look it up...

But if a voter follows the BBWAA rules in regard to steroids, he should realize they also pertain to drugs such as cocaine.

“Voting,” reads rule No. 5, “shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

Voters might not think about it consciously, but when they decide not to vote for a steroids user, they are invoking the “integrity, sportsmanship, character” clause. The same clause applies to Raines.

Some people reject use of that clause, arguing that there are plenty of bad guys in the Hall of Fame and usually cite Ty Cobb as the poster boy for that group. But that’s not an excuse to put more bad guys in.

http://thebiglead.com/2013/01/10/mu...ers-should-punish-tim-raines-for-cocaine-use/
 
hugh613 said:
I believe Murray Chass (New York Post?) said he would never vote for Raines because of his coke use. I'll look it up...
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm sure a few guys have said something like that. The point was EVERYONE talks about the PED usage of players but you barely hear a peep about Raines and the blow.

And again, I couldn't give two shits about any of it from any of them. Put something on their plaque that notes what they either did or were accused of. The best baseball players belong in the HOF.
 
Lareux said:
Yes, I'm sure a few guys have said something like that. The point was EVERYONE talks about the PED usage of players but you barely hear a peep about Raines and the blow.
Click to expand...
Why would they? Kind of ridiculous to try and equate the two. Sort of like keeping Mantle out because of alcohol issues.
 
Most fans and baseball writers don't view recreational drug use or alcohol abuse the same way as steroids/PEDS or betting on games involving your team. I know coke and amphetamines are pretty performance enhancing for a player who parties until sunrise, but people just don't view them with the same degree of scorn. I'm sure Raines' drug habit hasn't helped his cause among voters, people just don't soapbox about it like PEDS. I think Raines should be in.
 
hugh613 said:
Why would they? Kind of ridiculous to try and equate the two. Sort of like keeping Mantle out because of alcohol issues.
Click to expand...

They are both illegal and performance enhancers. I just said it was kinda funny too, not sure why it's being taken like I said it needs to be discussed. Lol.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Most fans and baseball writers don't view recreational drug use or alcohol abuse the same way as steroids/PEDS or betting on games involving your team. I know coke and amphetamines are pretty performance enhancing for a player who parties until sunrise, but people just don't view them with the same degree of scorn. I'm sure Raines' drug habit hasn't helped his cause among voters, people just don't soapbox about it like PEDS. I think Raines should be in.
Click to expand...

Yes, he should be in.
 
Lareux said:
They are both illegal and performance enhancers. I just said it was kinda funny too, not sure why it's being taken like I said it needs to be discussed. Lol.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry. The whole hot sauce thing still has me on edge... That and I'm about to lose 2 bets because the Raptors waited until tip off to announce Kyle Lowry was out for 'rest'.
 
hugh613 said:
I'm sorry. The whole hot sauce thing still has me on edge... That and I'm about to lose 2 bets because the Raptors waited until tip off to announce Kyle Lowry was out for 'rest'.
Click to expand...

Lol. It's all good bud. You and I usually agree and "get" each other more often than not so it just caught me a bit off guard.

Took me days to get rid of the hot sauce edginess. Try Xanax.
 
On the plus side, ballots become transparent beginning next year, so the internet will be able to publicly shame the dumb asses that cast votes for guys like Chad Ogea and Mickey Morandini.
 
wiseplayer said:
Take a good look at Pudge's numbers and tell me how he gets in.
Click to expand...

Well he'd be getting in based an awful lot on his defense in the first place, but the PED allegations surround him as well. The debate on him was whether or not he would be in on his first ballot not whether or not he's going in, he's almost assuredly getting in (only the PED stuff would keep him out).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
While his bat was light, he threw out 49% of would-be base thieves, then upped that to 52% the following year, helping him earn All-Star and Gold Glove honors for the first of 10 straight times. Only four position players have made the All-Star team at an age younger than his 20 years, 230 days, including catchers Butch Wynegar (1976: 20 years, 121 days) and Johnny Bench ('68: 20 years, 215 days).

Rodriguez’s bat began to mature: He hit .273/.315/.412 for a 98 OPS+ in 1993, then .298/.360/.488 with 16 homers in the strike-shortened ’94 season, the Rangers’ first in The Ballpark in Arlington, a notoriously hitter-friendly bandbox that would boost his offensive statistics considerably. For his career, Rodriguez hit .325/.361/.530 with 108 homers in 2,514 plate appearances there, compared to .287/.325/.443 with 203 homers in 7,756 PA everywhere else. Aided by that park, Pudge hit a combined .316/.352/.521 from 1995 to 2002, topping a .300 batting average in each year—the longest streak of any catcher besides Piazza—and averaging 22 homers. A 4.2% unintentional walk rate limited his offensive contributions somewhat, but even after adjusting for the favorability of his park, Rodriguez's 119 OPS+ was second only to Piazza (156) among catchers during that stretch.
 
Someone please tell me how Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage are HOF'ers but Lee Smith is not, and the the only 2 players ahead of him in saves all-time are considered locks to get in (Rivera and Hoffman) ?
 
ArizonaKid said:
Huh ?

1 of the 5 best ever at his position and offensive #'s are practically the same as Carlton Fisk (plus Rodriguez won an MVP) who got in on his 2nd ballot.
Click to expand...

Right. The question should be "how does he NOT make the HOF" with that resume. And the only reason it's even in doubt is due to the PED allegations.
 
ArizonaKid said:
How in the hell did Casey Blake end up making the ballot ?
Click to expand...
What's the criteria for eligibility? 10+ years of active service? That's likely how, and pretty much a guarantee Red Sox Nation gives a vote or two to Wakefield and Varitek.

Sounds like Bagwell and Raines definite, Pudge maybe, Hoffman and Vlad almost but not quite.
 
10 years of service is a requirement but doesn't automatically place you on the ballot. Javier Vasquez was left off the ballot this year and while I'm certain he wouldn't receive a single vote he did have a good enough of a career to at least see his name on the ballot.

Blake has 1186 career hits and never hit above .290 in his career and was never an all-star....I think he is the worst player I have seen on the ballot since Shawon Dunston.
 
twinkie13 said:
Vlad not gonna get in at all or not this time?

Pudge needs in too
Click to expand...

Not sure on Vlad but he 100% should be in at some point. Dude was a 5 tool player (until his knees went) and is the best "bad ball" hitter any of us have ever seen play. He literally hit his way off the island...lol.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Huh ?

1 of the 5 best ever at his position and offensive #'s are practically the same as Carlton Fisk (plus Rodriguez won an MVP) who got in on his 2nd ballot.
Click to expand...
Actually, a better comparison in my eyes for Rodriguez is Gary Carter (also a HOF'er)

Rodriguez's defensive WAR is top 8 all time (everyone above him is in the HOF) at 28.7. Next highest Catcher is Carter at 15th overall.
Rodriguez's offensive WAR is 53.9 and lifetime OPS is .798 whereas Carter has a 55.6 oWAR and .776 OPS, both hit 300+ home runs, 1200+ Rbi's, and Carter is the 2nd all time JAWS, whereas Rodriguez is 3rd all time.

No doubt Pudge will be in the HOF.
If you look at Raines' #'s it's hard to tell why he was kept out for so long to be honest. The only things I can think of is he normally played on shit teams, I mean he only made 2 playoff appearances with 11 total games before going to the Yankees when he was well past his prime. Also, while I am a huge baseball fan and never really had anything against Raines as a kid watching him, the coke stigma didn't help much either. Lastly, he was often overshadowed as a great leadoff man/base stealer by his peers at the time in the likes of Rickey Henderson and Vince Coleman. Not really his fault.
I am ambivalent towards Bagwell tbh. I'd prefer seeing him in as opposed to Biggio though who just hung around to accumulate stats to make the HOF.

Those three look in, or at least Raines and Bagwell for sure.

I'd vote Hoffman in.

I wouldn't vote Guerrero in, at least not first ballot for sure. Vlad was a very good to great player at his prime, but his career was too short to accumulate the massive stats that his contemporaries were able to make. A decent, albeit flawed, comparison would be Jim Rice. Both players had massive 10 year stretches were they were more than likely in the top 2-3 players in the game category. But, both careers were shortened. Neither was very good defensively (people thinking Vlad was great in the field are wrong - he had a good arm, yes. And Rice was quite good early on until injuries hit). Voters made Rice wait years before voting him in, I'd certainly wait 3-4 years if i had a vote.

Clemens and Bonds should both be in, period. Don't care if you don't like them, think they did PED's, whatever. So did other players that they went up against, and they were far and away the best players of their years.

Mussina and Schilling will get the Bert Blyleven treatment. I personally would never vote either in, nor would I have voted Blyleven.

Edgar Martinez shouldn't be voted in either. Guy was a DH and his batting stats are just barely borderline hall worthy. In my eyes, you need to be clearly a HOF offensively statistically speaking if you are a DH only. Barely hit 300 home runs in an offensive era, sorry Edgar, but no hall for you.
 
I liked Raines back in the day but he seems like a classic Hall of Very Good player.

He was prolific when he was young.

[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Year[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Tm[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]G[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]PA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]AB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]R[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]2B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]3B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]RBI[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]CS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SLG[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OPS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OPS+[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]TB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GDP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SH[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IBB[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]1982-1987[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]MON[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]912[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4125[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3569[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]658[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1107[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]201[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]345[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]433[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]508[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]394[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].310[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].397[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].449[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].846[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]135[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1603[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total, bgcolor: #DADCDE"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Average[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]152[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]688[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]595[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]184[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]267[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total, bgcolor: #DADCDE"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]per 162 games[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]163[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]735[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]636[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]118[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]198[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]62[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]91[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]71[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]286[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
But strangely he was only pretty good in his prime, drops in health, BA, OPS, 2B, SB numbers.

[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Year[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Tm[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]G[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]PA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]AB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]R[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]2B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]3B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]RBI[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]CS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SLG[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OPS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OPS+[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]TB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GDP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SH[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IBB[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]1988-1993[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]MON,CHW[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]798[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3483[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2978[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]486[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]847[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]117[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]328[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]240[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]444[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]286[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].284[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].377[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].407[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].784[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1212[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total, bgcolor: #DADCDE"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Average[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]133[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]580[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]496[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]141[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]55[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]74[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]202[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total, bgcolor: #DADCDE"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]per 162 games[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]162[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]708[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]605[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]99[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]172[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]91[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]59[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]247[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
And really was just a part time player from 34-39.

[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Year[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Tm[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]G[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]PA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]AB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]R[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]2B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]3B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]RBI[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]CS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SLG[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OPS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]OPS+[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]TB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GDP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SH[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IBB[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]1994-1999[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]CHW,NYY,OAK[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]534[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2138[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1814[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]335[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]511[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]254[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]287[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]224[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].282[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].378[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].416[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].795[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]108[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]755[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total hl, bgcolor: #DADCDE"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Average[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]356[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]302[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]126[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total, bgcolor: #DADCDE"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]per 162 games[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]162[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]648[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]550[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]102[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]155[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]77[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]87[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]229[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
Never an all-star after the age of 27. Not what I'd look for in a HOFer. Played LF too, eh.
 
When Raines name first appeared on the ballot, I also thought he was hall of very good worthy. There were quite a few more deserving players on the ballots throughout the years.
But, as arguments for Raines came in, I started to drink the kool aid a bit more, and I suppose I finally passed over from a no vote to a yes vote, which is why the baseball HOF to me is the best one out there by miles.

Raines compares EXTREMELY favorably to Lou Brock, also a HOF'er, also a left fielder.
Raines lifetime OBP is .385 which is pretty damn good for a lead off hitter (something like 40 points higher than Brock's).
His lifetime oWAR is also pretty lofty for a leadoff guy at almost 70, again considerably higher than Brock's.

Raines career definitely fell off a cliff from about his age 33 season and beyond, but prior to that he had stolen at least 70 bases 6+ times (he is one of only 3 mlb players in history to do so) and his 85% success rate in sb's is pretty lofty too.

All star game appearances as we all well know are a matter of popularity (and to a lesser degree team success) than they are individual merit, and Raines played on some pretty crappy teams - I lend no credence to ASG appearances to any HOF candidate.
I can see someone not voting for him though.
 
I agree there's a certain amount of popularity in All-Star Game appearances but to go to 7 straight right off the bat and then not a single one thereafter? And he didn't play on a below .500 team until he was 35, so I don't buy a toiled in obscurity argument either. What happened is his production dropped and at the same time a guy named Bonds emerged on the scene and redefined what a left fielder's production could be. Then he went to the AL and played on some really good White Sox teams, but Henderson was still in his prime in that league.

Philosophically I do use AS appearances as a small factor in evaluating players, and I also use MVP voting. I think its at least as valuable to trust what people were thinking when the player was actually on the field rather than applying esoteric statistical analysis well after the career is over. If your contemporaries didn't recognize your greatness, then what kind of "fame" are we celebrating?
 
dylanphan said:
When Raines name first appeared on the ballot, I also thought he was hall of very good worthy. There were quite a few more deserving players on the ballots throughout the years.
But, as arguments for Raines came in, I started to drink the kool aid a bit more, and I suppose I finally passed over from a no vote to a yes vote, which is why the baseball HOF to me is the best one out there by miles.
Click to expand...
Should it really take 10 years though (or, more to the point, 15)? To me, HOF induction should be an almost instantaneous decision - either they are or they aren't. In that case, the only one that passes the eye test for me this season is Ivan Rodriguez.
 
Surprised Hoffman didn't get in, expect him and Vlad to next year.

Vlad actually made me want to go to the park to see the opposition, very rare in baseball.
 
Doesn't seem like Schilling or Mussina got much traction. If Clemens doesn't get in, could be years before we see another SP get in
 
Pudge getting in, coupled with Piazza last year, means it shouldn't be long before Bonds and Clemens rightfully get in.
 
Hoping Omar gets in at some point, best defensive SS that I can recall, maybe Ozzie was close. Doubt he gets in on the first ballot next year but undoubtedly deserves to be in sooner rather than later.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Hoping Omar gets in at some point, best defensive SS that I can recall, maybe Ozzie was close. Doubt he gets in on the first ballot next year but undoubtedly deserves to be in sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...
Unless there's a seismic down shift in offense the next few seasons, can't really see it happening. Would like to see it happen, but defense doesn't seem to have that much sex appeal to the modern day fan, which pretty much means someone luck Scott Rolen's out of luck.

Only exception to the rule down the road might be someone like Yadier Molina, but even that might be a bit of a stretch.
 
Be curious, because that guy basically was a highlight reel defensively and had a helluva run
 
Omar probably ends up being a victim of circumstance more than anything else. Had he played in the 80's or earlier, surefire HOF'er. Having played in an era where the position was redefined as a power position thanks to A-Rod, Jeter, Nomar, etc... doesn't do him any favours unfortunately.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Be curious, because that guy basically was a highlight reel defensively and had a helluva run
Click to expand...

He was a highlight reel but was kinda overrated at the position when you look at the advanced stats. Tough to see him getting in, but it's certainly possible. The problem for him is going to be ballots in the next few years with many guys more deserving than him.
 

<tbody>
[TD="class: xl65"]Player[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 99"]Year on ballot[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 49"]Votes[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 54"]Pct[/TD]

[TD="class: xl67"][/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Jeff Bagwell[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]7th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]381[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]86.20%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Tim Raines[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]10th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]380[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]86.00%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Ivan Rodriguez[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]336[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]76.00%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Trevor Hoffman[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]2nd[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]327[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]74.00%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Vladimir Guerrero[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]317[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]71.70%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Edgar Martinez[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]8th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]259[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]58.60%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Roger Clemens[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]5th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]239[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]54.10%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Barry Bonds[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]5th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]238[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]53.80%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Miike Mussina[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]4th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]229[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]51.80%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Curt Schilling[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]5th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]199[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]45.00%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Lee Smith[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]15th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]151[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]34.20%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Manny Ramirez[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]105[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]23.80%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Larry Walker[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]7th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]97[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]21.90%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Fred McGriff[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]9th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]96[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]21.70%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Jeff Kent[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]4th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]74[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]16.70%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Gary Sheffield[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]3rd[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]59[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]13.30%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Billy Wagner[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]2nd[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]10.20%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Sammy Sosa[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]5th[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]38[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]8.60%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Jorge Posada[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]3.80%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Magglio Ordonez[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]0.70%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Edgar Renteria[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]0.50%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Jason Varitek[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]0.50%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 113"]Tim Wakefield[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 99"]1st[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 49, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 54, align: right"]0.20%[/TD]

[TD="class: xl69"]BBWAA vote[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"][/TD]

</tbody>
 
My Tribe-goggled two cents on Vizquel ... Won't be surprised if it's a bit of a struggle, but will be surprised if Omar doesn't get in eventually. Think his support will get more vocal as the years go by, he's still a popular and beloved figure in the game today as a coach, never shies from an interview. Only player I can remember people showing up early to watch put on a show fielding grounders before the game, like showing up early to watch Bo Jackson take BP or something. The years he spent with Robbie Alomar at 2B were like watching a ballet. The eleven Gold Gloves serve to remind as the only reason why he's under consideration, but he developed into a good two-hitter in a prolific line-up in Cleveland. (Needed 20+ years to do it, but more base hits than Babe Ruth, more stolen bases than Rod Carew.) Best at fielding the position in my lifetime, with bonus points for style, or Ozzie's equal anyway. Think he gets there.
 
[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]
C2fo7ddUQAAsZV9.jpg
 
Lareux said:
Gary Sheffield deserves better than that. My goodness.
Click to expand...

Agree. Not sure if he deserves a spot, but surprised he's not in the 40-60% range.

tipyerbartender said:
My Tribe-goggled two cents on Vizquel ... Won't be surprised if it's a bit of a struggle, but will be surprised if Omar doesn't get in eventually. Think his support will get more vocal as the years go by, he's still a popular and beloved figure in the game today as a coach, never shies from an interview. Only player I can remember people showing up early to watch put on a show fielding grounders before the game, like showing up early to watch Bo Jackson take BP or something. The years he spent with Robbie Alomar at 2B were like watching a ballet. The eleven Gold Gloves serve to remind as the only reason why he's under consideration, but he developed into a good two-hitter in a prolific line-up in Cleveland. (Needed 20+ years to do it, but more base hits than Babe Ruth, more stolen bases than Rod Carew.) Best at fielding the position in my lifetime, with bonus points for style, or Ozzie's equal anyway. Think he gets there.
Click to expand...

I'll be surprised if Omar gets to 30% ;)
 
I like that saying in Schilling's profile. That could be the tagline for half the guys in the Politics Forum...
 
tip, the only two players I recall going to a game specifically to watch in my life were Vlad and Omar other than starting pitchers, of which there are many. Of course people would show up to watch Bonds/Sosa/McGwire and now Stanton for BP, but those were the two that made me actually want to go to the game when they were in town (saw Omar a bit when I was in KC).

I value defense probably more than most, but that guy was incredible and worth the price of admission.
 
Posada will be falling off of the ballot after his first year. That's surprising. Wasn't sure he'd really get in, but seeing him not even get enough support to stay on the ballot is certainly a shock.
 
PED guys will start getting in once they make all ballots public. Tide is turning in their favor.
 
Gandolf said:
Philosophically I do use AS appearances as a small factor in evaluating players, and I also use MVP voting. I think its at least as valuable to trust what people were thinking when the player was actually on the field rather than applying esoteric statistical analysis well after the career is over. If your contemporaries didn't recognize your greatness, then what kind of "fame" are we celebrating?
Click to expand...
Completely agree about MVP voting on a players HOF candidacy. I do believe Raines is a bit of an outlier in that he never really had any HOF worthy seasons, but as I had mentioned previously, his career WAR, OBP, stolen bases were all HOF worthy.

hugh613 said:
Should it really take 10 years though (or, more to the point, 15)? To me, HOF induction should be an almost instantaneous decision - either they are or they aren't. In that case, the only one that passes the eye test for me this season is Ivan Rodriguez.
Click to expand...
10-15 years ago, I completely agreed with this notion. I mean, no one's stats have changed over the past 5, 10 or even 15 years during HOF voting, so if they didn't get in after 2 years, why should they after 10?
But, older, softer Dylanphan has come around on many things. And while a player like Raines doesn't pass my initial eye test, nor would I consider him a first ballot HOF'er, as I reflect over the years, and build up a case for him, my vote would have been swayed. For the past 16 or so years, my wife and kids have asked, begged for a cat as a pet. I am pretty opposed to having pets at all, or even eating animals. Each year they would ask. Multiple times per year, and I was always a steadfast no. Well, guess who got a cat last October? Nothing changed on my end, I was just finally swayed by opinion. It happens.
 
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