2015 MLB HOF Inductions

tipyerbartender said:
Ridiculous. So Manny's in, Vizqel is not, Griff is on the fence. We do have eyes.
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Please connect the dots for me, I don't follow

Omar is the best SS of my generation, he's clearly in. Manny should be in as well, possibly the biggest game changer other than Bonds I've seen. People cheat, people get caught, and people are still great.

And cocaine, adderall, basically amphetamines in general, make people perform at a different level than if they weren't on them. Significantly.
 
Is a decision to not bet on one's team an implicit bet against one's team? Might a manager manage his bullpen differently if he had 10 grand on the outcome? I know, dumb questions.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Is a decision to not bet on one's team an implicit bet against one's team? Might a manager manage his bullpen differently if he had 10 grand on the outcome? I know, dumb questions.
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Must bet, every night

And what's the net loss if he chooses not to bet on his team? Call it insider trading I guess, but what did he stand to lose in that case? It would be far-reaching to say he was stacking his bullpen for the big game the next day, but I can at least buy that argument, but barely.

Look at gman, he bets on the Indians on a daily basis. Mad props! he should be managing.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Must bet, every night

And what's the net loss if he chooses not to bet on his team? Call it insider trading I guess, but what did he stand to lose in that case? It would be far-reaching to say he was stacking his bullpen for the big game the next day, but I can at least buy that argument, but barely.

Look at gman, he bets on the Indians on a daily basis. Mad props! he should be managing.
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We joke, but integrity's integrity.
 
Subjectively apparently, I would wager most everyone in the HOF lacks integrity to a degree. You just choose to apply it to criteria that you don't like. Ironically, I doubt you are a fan of amphetamines, and I'm pretty much ok with em.
 
How much integrity did the guy have who chose not to participate in taking PEDs but knew his teammate(s) did partake? Taking the field with known cheats, knowing that his team might or did have an advantage every game because of it. Integrity is a tough measure when you break it down.
 
I'm a fan, period. You got me pegged. I'm opposed to steroid guys getting into the HOF if it weren't for the use. And I'm opposed to the admitted PED transgressors, out of principle.
 
kjohnson109 said:
How much integrity did the guy have who chose not to participate in taking PEDs but knew his teammate(s) did partake? Taking the field with known cheats, knowing that his team might or did have an advantage every game because of it. Integrity is a tough measure when you break it down.
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Who's this, Jason Grimsley?
 
Fondybadger said:
We're talking about Omar Vizquel being in the HOF?
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Now that would be a crime if it didn't happen. And I'm guilty of believing that defense is 50% of the game and he was simply the best at his position. I could give a shit if he hit .180.
 
We know, they know, Lareux knows. There's a reason Mac and company don't get in.
 
Tip I could get a prescription for adderall tomorrow if I wanted, so can you. And it completely enhances everything about the way you focus, performance, etc (I have more experience than I wish to admit) but Chris Davis gets to take it and play. Legally.

But you wouldn't consider it a PED, when it is exactly that, and it's legal if you get it prescribed.
 
And I get the feeling Fondy just woke up and fell on some keystrokes, prolly laugh at that post in the am
 
kjohnson109 said:
Tip I could get a prescription for adderall tomorrow if I wanted, so can you. And it completely enhances everything about the way you focus, performance, etc (I have more experience than I wish to admit) but Chris Davis gets to take it and play. Legally.

But you wouldn't consider it a PED, when it is exactly that, and it's legal if you get it prescribed.
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It's not the same, it's arguing because you're bored. One drug makes a guy alert. The other one booms his biceps. No more crazy talk, steroids are different.
 
I'd rather be alert than strong. And the argument for roids is much more than strength, it's longevity as well, endurance, etc. But alert can't be overlooked, it matters.
 
kjohnson109 said:
And I get the feeling Fondy just woke up and fell on some keystrokes, prolly laugh at that post in the am
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I can't think of a single year he played in the big leagues where I felt that he was a top 20 player in any single year. He's not even an all star type player in my mind.
 
Fondybadger said:
I can't think of a single year he played in the big leagues where I felt that he was a top 20 player in any single year. He's not even an all star type player in my mind.
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Best defensive shortstop for years, and that's the most demanding defensive position on the field (I could entertain catcher as an argument). Defense made him a top 20 player, hell top 10 imo.

Better than Ozzie.
 
Defense matters. Not a question in my mind that little fucker juiced though.
 
But we love stats, and what he did isn't all that stat worthy.

I hate stats by the way, and I love me some glove.
 
There are three '90's Indians who I consider HOF discussion-worthy. Vizquel, Lofton, Belle. But Thome will get in instead.
 
You don't like defense, yet it's at least 50% of the game. Vizquel is a better version of pretty much any shortstop since the 70s that's in the HOF. In fact, if I could make a shortstop from scratch, it would be him with a little bit of batting average. But if that effected his play in the field, I'd rescind it. Take the automatic out, which he obviously wasn't.
 
Don't think Konerko or Thome are HOF worthy, but I think Thome gets in at some point
 
kjohnson109 said:
You don't like defense, yet it's at least 50% of the game. Vizquel is a better version of pretty much any shortstop since the 70s that's in the HOF. In fact, if I could make a shortstop from scratch, it would be him with a little bit of batting average. But if that effected his play in the field, I'd rescind it. Take the automatic out, which he obviously wasn't.
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I need players that wow me. Vizquel never did that. Do you believe that Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker belong in?
 
Trammell I would probably vote for, but he's a shell of Vizquel imo. Tough call there. Lou, probably not.

Again, I would vote for SS and catchers more for defense than anything, although Piazza would get my vote for all the wrong reasons. He was a DH who played catcher and was so superior offensively to everyone else at that position for so long, he gets the nod. But again, for the wrong reasons.

Pudge deserves to be in imo, but Vizquel is someone I would pay to see, and there aren't many nor have there been many of those guys. And it's not like he ever played on a team I'm a fan of.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Trammell I would probably vote for, but he's a shell of Vizquel imo. Tough call there. Lou, probably not.

Again, I would vote for SS and catchers more for defense than anything, although Piazza would get my vote for all the wrong reasons. He was a DH who played catcher and was so superior offensively to everyone else at that position for so long, he gets the nod. But again, for the wrong reasons.

Pudge deserves to be in imo, but Vizquel is someone I would pay to see, and there aren't many nor have there been many of those guys. And it's not like he ever played on a team I'm a fan of.
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To me Pudge is a few levels above Vizquel
 
If you haven't figured out, to me it sucks that defense isn't equally considered as offense. But that's not too sexy, it just wins games. Gold Gloves are nothing but opinion votes, but I think they need to be considered.

I'm also someone who loved to watch 2-1 type games.
 
kjohnson109 said:
If you haven't figured out, to me it sucks that defense isn't equally considered as offense. But that's not too sexy, it just wins games. Gold Gloves are nothing but opinion votes, but I think they need to be considered.

I'm also someone who loved to watch 2-1 type games.
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Do you believe relievers should be in the all star game/elected to HOF?
 
Absolutely

It will be a shame if Trevor Hoffman doesn't get elected, he was nails for a fuckton of years in that role
 
I'd even support an 8th inning guy getting elected down the road the way the game has evolved. That guy could win or lose a series for you.
 
Give me a Dale Murphy in the HOF. He was a stud for a decent amount of time. Rather that than being so so for 15 years.
 
Travesty. I will say his best years were well before I was interested in the game, but from what I understand he was the epitome of HOF caliber, just played in the wrong market for the most part.
 
But who are you saying was so so for 15 years?

Dale was all offense, but no doubt he was a stud for a bit
 
kjohnson109 said:
But who are you saying was so so for 15 years?

Dale was all offense, but no doubt he was a stud for a bit
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Guys like Omar, Biggio, Posada were the so so... overshadowed every year of their career. Give me a guy that was considered the top of the game for at least a few years of their career. I know I said Omar was never a top 20 player in any season, but not sure if any of Omar, Biggio, or Posada had a top 10 year while they were a big league player. Biggio was 4th and 5th in NL MVP in '97 and '98 but I was never wowwed by him
 
Thing is with the Hall of Fame, the word fame has a sense of popularity built into it, so some guys that weren't overly popular won't get into the Hall. That's just how it is. And defense, gold gloves, etc don't make a player famous or popular. HRs and avg do, and that kinda sucks.
 
Fondybadger said:
Guys like Omar, Biggio, Posada were the so so... overshadowed every year of their career. Give me a guy that was considered the top of the game for at least a few years of their career. I know I said Omar was never a top 20 player in any season, but not sure if any of Omar, Biggio, or Posada had a top 10 year while they were a big league player. Biggio was 4th and 5th in NL MVP in '97 and '98 but I was never wowwed by him
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Right, but I can only speak for myself and say that Vizquel was maybe the only player I would go to the ballpark to watch if he was in town. I might go for other reasons, but just to see one player, he was pretty much it.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Thing is with the Hall of Fame, the word fame has a sense of popularity built into it, so some guys that weren't overly popular won't get into the Hall. That's just how it is. And defense, gold gloves, etc don't make a player famous or popular. HRs and avg do, and that kinda sucks.
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A lot of the "wow" factor for me is that if I was opening up say a pack of sports cards and I got a card of so and so if I was excited. Posada, Omar, Biggio didn't do that for me.
 
Fondybadger said:
A lot of the "wow" factor for me is that if I was opening up say a pack of sports cards and I got a card of so and so if I was excited. Posada, Omar, Biggio didn't do that for me.
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LOL that's because they weren't worth shit
 
I saw more Cleveland/KC games than I care to remember when I was in school, and I'm not a fan of either team

The shortstop was worth the price of admission in my book
 
kjohnson109 said:
Right, but I can only speak for myself and say that Vizquel was maybe the only player I would go to the ballpark to watch if he was in town. I might go for other reasons, but just to see one player, he was pretty much it.
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You've been saying it and I'd agree that defense just wasn't it for me. I was going to a lot of games when guys like Mcgwire, Canseco, Puckett, etc would putting up their numbers. When I was collecting cards I'd put my better players in different boxes. Omar was never one of those guys. Guys like Juan Gonzales, Andres Galarraga, and even Will Clark were
 
kjohnson109 said:
Wow was getting the Billy Ripken fuck face card
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1989 Fleer. Think I have 3 or 4 examples of that card. Was 7/8 at the time and getting that was a big deal. There was a whited out, boxed out, scribbled out, original and maybe a 5th version. Got way too many sports cards from 1988-1992 than I'd like to admit. Pro Set, Hoops, Opeechee (sp), etc
 
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