Paying Players for their likeness
- Thread starter RetroVK
- Start date
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
If your consulting resulted in a 5 billion dollar surplus
You would be ok seeing none of that?
W0lverine
Member
The same reason why NFL and NBA players deserve a cut of the revenues of the multi-billion dollar businesses they participate in. People spend money to watch these sports due to a combination of the brand (team, school, league, etc.) and the skill of the athlete (wins and losses). We know empirically it is not 100% brand because the revenue of virtually all brands fluctuates in tandem with winning and losing. We know empirically it is not 100% skill because some brands are always valued higher than other competing brands.
Right now the industry standard for the revenue split is roughly 50/50 (see NFL, NBA, NHL). In the NCAA revenue sports this split is more like 90% brand/10% athlete. That is not due to market forces, but rather due to NCAA rules prohibiting direct compensation for athletes. Since I believe in free markets I find this objectionable and wish to see those rules abolished.
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
You guys keep pointing out the rich kids this wouldn't matter for
Like takeit says, a ton, if not the majority, of these kids come from low income families
They may have familes of their own, football may be the only reason they can get into a school
This is not money from the ncaa, this is a private business choosing to use them to help their business
On every side this is a win, and not allowing it is removing their rights
From the young men and woman, who cant profit off their own image. To the small business owners, who cant get their preferred spokesperson
Like takeit says, a ton, if not the majority, of these kids come from low income families
They may have familes of their own, football may be the only reason they can get into a school
This is not money from the ncaa, this is a private business choosing to use them to help their business
On every side this is a win, and not allowing it is removing their rights
From the young men and woman, who cant profit off their own image. To the small business owners, who cant get their preferred spokesperson
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
That is industry standard for professional athletes in the aforementioned leagues. It is not the industry standard for college football.
There is also incentive for the NFL to pay a player ... to try and keep him while he is good. That incentive doesn't exist for a college on the same level. The player is gone in a few years, and the better he is, the sooner he leaves. And the good player that leaves, is not going to a competitor.
TahoeLegend
Pretty much a regular
No, the players do not deserve a "cut of the pie." That's absurd. People say that as if it makes sense, but it's nonsense.
WHY do they deserve anything beyond the scholarship. Not one person has ever cited a logical reason, they just parrot it as if it somehow makes sense.
There is not a single business in the world that pays entry level people more money based on how much the business makes. Not a one. Apple has the greatest amount of cash of any company in history and they pay entry level employees based on the the going rate and what the employees could earn elsewhere.
To use the logic of some on this thread the janitors and grounds keepers and flunkies and gofers at Apple deserve more than they could get any other company in the Bay Area simply because they work for Apple, and even though if they quit in protest they could not get a penny more then the going rate.
These players--with a very few exceptions, a fraction of one percent--would command minimum wage if they went out into the real world, and they would be lucky to get that.
And the school would just replace them with other good players and the attendance, TV ratings, and fan interest would remain exactly the same.
Players are lucky--and I mean extremely lucky--to get what they get with a scholarship. Most of them, will never live this well again the rest of their lives. I was well into my 30s before I lived as well as I did as a scholarship athlete.
Basketball players now realize that if they actually have enough talent that someone might pay them money to play they can turn pro any time they want. They can play overseas--several do it every year and have been for a decade or so--or they can go directly to the D league. And if they are good enough they can sign a huge shoe contract.
But almost no one does it, and the reason is no one will pay them a cent and they know it. Even guys like Zion prefer to take the money under the table, then pretend they know nothing about it--and the coaches pretend right along with them--because one of the greatest pleasures in the world is playing sports on a college scholarship.
College basketball is now a sewer, the most corrupt sport on the planet, and if the NCAA caves on paying players football will surpass basketball with ease.
And for what, a bunch of guys who will never again find anyone to pay them a cent to play a sport
WHY do they deserve anything beyond the scholarship. Not one person has ever cited a logical reason, they just parrot it as if it somehow makes sense.
There is not a single business in the world that pays entry level people more money based on how much the business makes. Not a one. Apple has the greatest amount of cash of any company in history and they pay entry level employees based on the the going rate and what the employees could earn elsewhere.
To use the logic of some on this thread the janitors and grounds keepers and flunkies and gofers at Apple deserve more than they could get any other company in the Bay Area simply because they work for Apple, and even though if they quit in protest they could not get a penny more then the going rate.
These players--with a very few exceptions, a fraction of one percent--would command minimum wage if they went out into the real world, and they would be lucky to get that.
And the school would just replace them with other good players and the attendance, TV ratings, and fan interest would remain exactly the same.
Players are lucky--and I mean extremely lucky--to get what they get with a scholarship. Most of them, will never live this well again the rest of their lives. I was well into my 30s before I lived as well as I did as a scholarship athlete.
Basketball players now realize that if they actually have enough talent that someone might pay them money to play they can turn pro any time they want. They can play overseas--several do it every year and have been for a decade or so--or they can go directly to the D league. And if they are good enough they can sign a huge shoe contract.
But almost no one does it, and the reason is no one will pay them a cent and they know it. Even guys like Zion prefer to take the money under the table, then pretend they know nothing about it--and the coaches pretend right along with them--because one of the greatest pleasures in the world is playing sports on a college scholarship.
College basketball is now a sewer, the most corrupt sport on the planet, and if the NCAA caves on paying players football will surpass basketball with ease.
And for what, a bunch of guys who will never again find anyone to pay them a cent to play a sport
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
For the reason that Teed mentioned. The schools and NCAA are making billions because people pay to watch the kids play the games and buy the merchandise. If the janitor had people paying insane amounts of money to watch him come and clean, then fuck yeah he should get some of that money.
Again, this isn’t even what we’re talking about...the players aren’t now getting a cut of the revenue...outside businesses will be paying the players. The NCAA should want this as it still protects the pie they have full autonomy of, and they can satisfy the athletes request for money, or the ability to get money.
TahoeLegend
Pretty much a regular
The public is not paying to watch individual college players and you know it.
I understand why you have trouble articulating a logical reason to reward players more than they are already richly rewarded because there is no logical reason. You just want players to get even more than they get for emotional reasons. Or maybe your really don't understand how well they are rewarded already.
And by the way, I don't see the colleges as good guys and players as bad guys.
College coaches force the players to work out in supervised workouts year-round. Every single college football player puts in more time in supervised workouts than any NFL player, any Olympic champion, any professional athlete in any sport.
It's crazy. If that really made a team better every pro team would be doing it. Instead, all other sports except for college football and basketball insist players take time off to rest their bodies. The NBA even has players do it during the season.
And all coaches pretend the workouts are "voluntary."
But there is not a single student who has to work to put themselves through school and to afford the things athletes get for free who would not gladly trade places with an athlete and put in two hours of playing games or working out instead of showing up and flipping burgers or delivering pizzas. Not a one.
And there is not a single athlete who would rather work a job to get through school than have a good time on a scholarship. Not a one.
I understand why you have trouble articulating a logical reason to reward players more than they are already richly rewarded because there is no logical reason. You just want players to get even more than they get for emotional reasons. Or maybe your really don't understand how well they are rewarded already.
And by the way, I don't see the colleges as good guys and players as bad guys.
College coaches force the players to work out in supervised workouts year-round. Every single college football player puts in more time in supervised workouts than any NFL player, any Olympic champion, any professional athlete in any sport.
It's crazy. If that really made a team better every pro team would be doing it. Instead, all other sports except for college football and basketball insist players take time off to rest their bodies. The NBA even has players do it during the season.
And all coaches pretend the workouts are "voluntary."
But there is not a single student who has to work to put themselves through school and to afford the things athletes get for free who would not gladly trade places with an athlete and put in two hours of playing games or working out instead of showing up and flipping burgers or delivering pizzas. Not a one.
And there is not a single athlete who would rather work a job to get through school than have a good time on a scholarship. Not a one.
D-Woww
Old Man Dan
I was gonna come in here and rant but i basically just second everything wolverine says.
Also, I am not at all turning this into a race conversation, but it is overwhelming what % of the people who are anti-players getting anything are:
1. middle age or older and
2. white
Those who think a scholarship is the same as getting paid are just out of touch and dont understand how things work in today's world
VK you are a good dude but, holy shit, ok boomer
D-Woww
Old Man Dan
after reading this post, and agreeing with mostly all of it, i will take back my previous statement about not bringing race into it. i think it is absolutley a factor. A lot of people who are against this just hate the thought of young cocky kids with swagger from disenfranchised backgrounds making money instead of shutting up and dribbling or running like a good boy.
D-Woww
Old Man Dan
ok boomer
sheesh this thread is so middle aged and white it just put its polo shirt, khakis and new balance sneakers on to take its wife out to dinner at olive garden
D-Woww
Old Man Dan
also, comparing being a college athlete to an entry-level job elsewhere is ridiculous. If a guy came out of college and worked for Apple, and made such an impression on Apple as Tua has made on Bamas footblal team, they absolutely would pay him more money than entry level
The job force isnt how it used to be. Its not "everyone has to pay their dues until they are old"...now its "what kind of value to you offer the company, we will pay you according to that." Sure there are some companies with that old school mindset, but thats why people like me leave them and they get stuck with Joe Average.
Finally, it sure is interesting how many of the people who say "its not fair to some players if other players are walking around making money and they arent making as much" are the same people who, when i say "there shouldn't be billionaires in the country when there are others starving who cant afford a meal" say "shut up libtard, they should just work harder and earn it"
The job force isnt how it used to be. Its not "everyone has to pay their dues until they are old"...now its "what kind of value to you offer the company, we will pay you according to that." Sure there are some companies with that old school mindset, but thats why people like me leave them and they get stuck with Joe Average.
Finally, it sure is interesting how many of the people who say "its not fair to some players if other players are walking around making money and they arent making as much" are the same people who, when i say "there shouldn't be billionaires in the country when there are others starving who cant afford a meal" say "shut up libtard, they should just work harder and earn it"
pressitup
Leader of the Adult Humor Industry
The NCAA is a governing body, not the nanny state. They are preserving "the integrity of the game"(whatever that means in today's age) are they not?
pressitup
Leader of the Adult Humor Industry
What's the poverty stricken second chair bassoon player getting out of all of this?
I bet he'd jump at a scholly. He's gonna have to work in IT and teach "no talent" kids just to get by and pay his student loans.
Damn, if only he could catch a football.
Should have nailed the harmonic minor in the test material.
I bet he'd jump at a scholly. He's gonna have to work in IT and teach "no talent" kids just to get by and pay his student loans.
Damn, if only he could catch a football.
Should have nailed the harmonic minor in the test material.
takeit
THE Wife
asking for a friend?
pressitup
Leader of the Adult Humor Industry
Yes, one of the multiple identities I struggle with. This one is named Sybil.
By and large 99% of football players are replaceable in college. Why is a person in the free market worth a share of the profit if they are replaceable ? Nick Saban turns down 4 stars all the time who want to play for alabama. Outside of tua there isn't any player who alabama couldn't go replace. Actually without Tua alabama was still good and could put greg mcelroy at qb and win a natty
The Jay Bilas also sight the coaches making so much money as why the players should. I think the coaches deserve the money - a good coach is not always replaceable - but any player is. Take all the NFL top players out of the ncaa. They will be replaced and fans will still come.
D-Woww
Old Man Dan
Ok so dont pay them directly. But if THEY can make money of their own likeness, let them.
big difference between letting them do that & paying them directly
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
They aren’t getting any share of the profit, they’re potentially getting money from outside businesses, and more than likely only the “non-replaceable” ones will be getting any money anyway.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
I’m not sure what you mean by me having trouble articulating...it seems maybe it’s just you who doesn't understand the point.
Again, I’m not even arguing they should get a piece of the pie...but they should certainly be able to make money off of their likeness, especially if the NCAA and schools can.
Not only am I not bringing emotion into it, I even mentioned what their scholarship entails on the school’s end of it...they get the athlete on their team. That is the transaction, scholarship for the athlete in return for him being a member of the team. Why should the school, on top of that, get to cash in on player’s likenesses without the actual player being able to do the same?
That doesn’t seem like a very complicated thing to understand, where are you having issues grasping it?
I'd be fine with it if it didn't open a legal loophole to pay recruits to the higher bidder. we are talking more than when people say can't the kid be allowed to sell an autograph to make a couple bucks. They would have to limit the name and likeness money to a certain amount......but these same players can also take out an insurance policy until they get to the nfl. So they're already sitting on cash.
To me the free market is at work already. Players are replaceable and more importantly they have no open market value if they did decide to not go to college. And in the instance there was an alternative league like an xfl that paid them an average salary I think players would still choose to go to college for the prestige and the current benefits they do receive going to college.
W0lverine
Member
Presumably you care about these things when you're handicapping:
1) recruiting rankings
2) injury reports
3) number of returning starters
4) transfers
All of this stuff is evidence that players are not considered replaceable.
Also there's a basic logical fallacy in your premise. If the players have no market value why does the NCAA need a rule preventing them from receiving compensation?
takeit
THE Wife
A team like Bama is already getting just about any player they want. If a player doesn't choose Bama, they are not choosing Sisters of the Poor University, but another powerhouse. It's not like a player will choose Bama because they may make a few more dollars off of jersey sales.
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Those players probably wont get paid then
This isnt going to get everyone huge money, it's the free market, so it will allow marketable players to make money off this
I remember when Joey Harrington was on a huge times square billboard nike put up his last year at Oregon
Why shouldnt he be paid for that?
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Also the coaches leaving brings up another issue
Players should get a free transfer if the coach that recruited them leaves for another job
Players should get a free transfer if the coach that recruited them leaves for another job
I follow recruiting alot and it's funny because fans think it's the end of the world when a 5 star or some player they really want picks another school. .....guess what ? The school is fine. Bama can lose multiple recruiting battles. Their fine. As long as they have nick saban, they will replace them with other top talent. Why ? because every player in america wants to play with nick saban. That's why the coach is so valuable. Much more valuable than 1 individual player.
The only market value in your scenario is again based on the school brand moreso than the player. What is the players value if it's not attached to that school ? In the ncaa no one is forcing them to join - they have free open market to go play somewhere else. So unless they have enough market value to go to another company, they shouldn't complain about rules of the organization they willingly sign up for
W0lverine
Member
Again, if the players have no market value why does the NCAA need a rule preventing them from receiving compensation?
If the players have (or had) market value and the NCAA is such a terrible proposition, why do they continue to voluntarily participate? It’s moot now anyway but the free market argument is flawed. A large portion of their “value” as an 18-20 year old athlete is directly tied to their association with the school/NCAA institution. That’s why the “the only thing they’re getting in return is a scholarship, most won’t even use it, and the value isn’t the same” argument is also flawed and absurd. What is the value of the name or likeness of [insert star player here] if they were on an NFL practice squad for three years while developing their skills before playing any competitive snaps?
NCAA rules have clearly been in place to curtail, or attempt to curtail, cheating and preserve some semblance of amateurism since we’re talking about colleges or universities and not professional organizations. It isn’t some sort of sinister, racist plot even though that appears to be the default assumption to every perceived slight in today’s world.
That doesn’t mean rules should never change as things evolve, but it’s complex. Those who can’t acknowledge that simply have chosen not to differentiate the collegiate athletic model and professional leagues, and assume they’re all part of the same system.
W0lverine
Member
The “collegiate athletic model” is to artificially fix the price of their labor costs by calling their workforce “amateurs” and prohibiting compensation. Calling highly skilled labor that produces a multi-billion dollar product “amateur” is nonsense. The difference between amateur and professional sports is the amount of money that consumers are willing to spend to watch. Once the amount of revenue generated from a sport is sufficient to create a profit-generating operation it becomes professional regardless of what label you (or the NCAA) want to slap on it.
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