RetroVK
This claim is disputed
No I wouldn't but I would give up theirs!
Paying Players for their likeness
- Thread starter RetroVK
- Start date
When did this change? It prolly did but I missed it. It definitely was a thing for many moons about not being allowed to have jobs (off-season may have been different).
pressitup
Leader of the Adult Humor Industry
Bernie?
W0lverine
Member
Re: #1 I bring up the NFL only in response to the "go somewhere else" argument and to show yet another way how the labor market is artificially restricted. When someone has only one option you cannot infer anything from the result of their "decision".
Re: #2 The NCAA cartel by rule prohibits any direct payment to athletes, which by definition sets wages at zero. Whether you call this a minimum wage or a maximum wage in this particular case is a distinction without a difference. If you want to be pedantic you could claim that the value of the in-kind compensation (scholarship) can vary between institutions, but again that ignores that the marginal cost for adding a student is effectively zero. IOW, while the school attaches a dollar value to the scholarship they incur no real cost by giving it away.
Re: #3 I'm simply pointing out who the actual entitled are in this particular situation. Hint: it's not the athletes who participate in sports that generate billions of dollars of revenue and receive pennies on the dollar for the value of their labor.
Agree or disagree, I don't believe these essential points can be disputed:
1) The value of the compensation given to college football and basketball players is nowhere near the actual market value for that labor. Simple math shows that the revenue split is far below the industry standard 50% (NFL, NBA, NHL, etc.), and they receive in-kind compensation (scholarship) not actual cash, meaning that the actual value of their split is further diluted.
2) The only reason this is the case is because the NCAA operates as a cartel and is allowed to set rules that artificially constrain the price of labor. Absent these rules we know the compensation for these athletes would naturally increase, based simply on the underground economy of compensation outside of the NCAA umbrella that is repeatedly exposed (i.e. "bag men").
I don't see how anyone can believe in free markets and defend the status quo. Anyway, I'll let this go. FWIW I enjoy reading your weekly thread.
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
It isn't employed labor though. It isn't a job. It is a voluntary activity.
I am no fan of the NCAA .. or the monopolistic nature of the NCAA, NFL, MLB, NBA, IFOCE, MLS, or NHL. I don't like the exemptions they get.
And I am not a fan of the rules with respect to the young guys being unable to play in the NFL.
Let me ask you this ...
If those kids could try out for the NFL no matter their age, would your stance be different?
I am no fan of the NCAA .. or the monopolistic nature of the NCAA, NFL, MLB, NBA, IFOCE, MLS, or NHL. I don't like the exemptions they get.
And I am not a fan of the rules with respect to the young guys being unable to play in the NFL.
Let me ask you this ...
If those kids could try out for the NFL no matter their age, would your stance be different?
It’s been the same for at least 20 years or so. The only rules on the books deal with things like being paid normal rates and actually performing the work, which are clearly meant to deter the outright funneling of cash because they’re an athlete. Some of that may now change with the new stance, but 99.9% of the time when you see it mentioned that athletes can’t work it’s meant in the context of time management, not rules that prevent it.
takeit
THE Wife
So you want the best of both worlds. Got it.
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
You are making assumptions about their lives
takeit
THE Wife
No I am not. Look at the majority of major athletes and look at their home life and how they grew up. Those are facts, not assumptions. You argue this side when it suites you - the minorities that grow up in single mother households and the fathers that are not around.
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Cant imagine how people can say dont pay the athletes when they are providing the entertainment
Teams pay out millions on coaches and ADs, but cant allow players to profit, outside the NCAA system on their own likeness? That player a few years ago who quit cause he wasnt allowed to have a YouTube channel that wasnt even related to football or the school sticks out
Its Soviet like to hold down this free market from people
Most of whom are not using their scholarship for academics, they are using it to play football or basketball let's be honest
Teams pay out millions on coaches and ADs, but cant allow players to profit, outside the NCAA system on their own likeness? That player a few years ago who quit cause he wasnt allowed to have a YouTube channel that wasnt even related to football or the school sticks out
Its Soviet like to hold down this free market from people
Most of whom are not using their scholarship for academics, they are using it to play football or basketball let's be honest
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
There are about 16,000 FBS players on the rosters.
The career span on average in the NFL is what? 2.5 to 3 years?
how many make an nfl roster each year 150? 170?
If they are there primarily to play football they have a problem.
It gets worse for basketball. They should primarily be there to learn a trade they can succeed in.
I am all for the players doing whatever they want to make money. But they have to decide if they want to play football within the NCAA guidelines.
They chose to join an association where there are rules against being paid to play and where there were rules against being paid for their likeness. Nothing is or was stopping them from giving up their ability to participate in that association and testing the free market waters.
How much do we think the free market values 18-20 year olds playing sports outside of the major professional leagues and the NCAA? How much does the free market value the likeness of 18-20 year old athletes who aren’t affiliated with an NCAA institution, and instead playing in some sort of academy or professional developmental league? Would have been interesting to find out, but I suspect everyone already knows those answers.
It’s not a free market issue, it’s simply a case of the athletes wanting all of the value afforded to them by their voluntary participation in the NCAA while not wanting to follow some of the rules set forth by the NCAA.
How much do we think the free market values 18-20 year olds playing sports outside of the major professional leagues and the NCAA? How much does the free market value the likeness of 18-20 year old athletes who aren’t affiliated with an NCAA institution, and instead playing in some sort of academy or professional developmental league? Would have been interesting to find out, but I suspect everyone already knows those answers.
It’s not a free market issue, it’s simply a case of the athletes wanting all of the value afforded to them by their voluntary participation in the NCAA while not wanting to follow some of the rules set forth by the NCAA.
takeit
THE Wife
Well now the NCAA guidelines will say they an earn money on their likeness.
gps_3
Head of Alabama Department of Decision-Making
That's exactly right. The rules have changed. Arguing whether or not they should have or shouldn't have is kind of pointless now. Now the argument centers on whether or not this will "ruin" college athletics. I don't think it will. It will change it some for sure, and not all of it good. Just wait until the first kid that finds out he already spent all the money he was supposed to use to pay income taxes. It will certainly be more work for the coaches and ADs, but they are fairly well paid, so I don't feel too bad for them. But I think the net result will be more money in some players' pockets, local businesses have new ways to promote themselves, and the games will continue to go on.
As I said earlier, that’s an issue that should be taken up with the pro leagues but it would be interesting to hear the arguments. Aren’t a lot of those rules part of the CBAs in each respective league and mostly the result of the players’ unions wishes?
takeit
THE Wife
Might be a good lesson for these guys to learn.
Will ALL scholarships be taxable, or are people trying to punish players with athletic scholarships?
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takeit
THE Wife
Really this all stems for California (Newsome) signing a law that says athletes can be paid. The NCAA threatened them that they wouldn't be able to compete in NCAA competitions and California told them to pound sand.
The NCAA could proceed without California schools or they could adjust. They adjusted.
The NCAA could proceed without California schools or they could adjust. They adjusted.
takeit
THE Wife
I'm not sure where the rule comes from.
Me either, I was only asking because I don’t follow it closely but it seems like the unions generally push for ways to limit excess spending on incoming players in the interest of keeping vets satisfied.
You are correct though in that it came to a head due to the California law. I’m generally disgusted by government intervention where it doesn’t belong and would have preferred it to happen naturally, but the NCAA caved so it’s on them. I wonder if some of the other state bills are still moving forward after the recent change by the NCAA? New York’s would require the direct payment of athletes by the school on a % of revenue basis.
You are correct though in that it came to a head due to the California law. I’m generally disgusted by government intervention where it doesn’t belong and would have preferred it to happen naturally, but the NCAA caved so it’s on them. I wonder if some of the other state bills are still moving forward after the recent change by the NCAA? New York’s would require the direct payment of athletes by the school on a % of revenue basis.
takeit
THE Wife
So if we are OK with players making money from their likeness, name or image we need to review our life choices?
HAHAHA... BAHA... *breathe* BAHAHAHAHAHA
takeit
THE Wife
My guess would be no and that is why the NCAA decided so quickly. The NCAA is also implementing this 2 years before California was to implement it.
pressitup
Leader of the Adult Humor Industry
The point was the NCAA should grow a pair if they kowtowed to the Cali proclamation.
Are we ok with seeing the star QB, that's one play away from never playing again, with "Chico's Bail Bonds" on his jersey?
What happened to the kids play for their school? Oh, money. I get it.
takeit
THE Wife
The thought of losing 52 schools made them sick to their wallets.
Everything is about money. Money and Power.
TahoeLegend
Pretty much a regular
Agree with you VK, this is nonsense. Players already are amply rewarded for their time.
I had an athletic scholarship and we were treated so much better than the rest of the student body it was almost embarrassing at times. Just one example--we got to enroll before any other students so we could pick out any class times we wanted.
As for some of the arguments above:
Players are prevented by the NFL--not colleges--from entering the NFL, but if these guys really are good enough to get paid--and almost none of them are good enough to ever get paid a cent--they can join the Canadian League or the XFL.
I recall a player once calling me in shock at finding out he would have to pay the team to be allowed to even try out for a semi-pro team. But that's exactly how much almost every single college football and basketball player in the country is worth.
It is absurd--bordering on lunacy--to say the scholarships given to college athletes is "nowhere near their actual value"
Scholarships are worth a ton. We just saw what some of the richest people in the country are willing to pay just to get their kids INTO a school. In addition to being admitted they get room, board, books, tuition, tutors, medical, computers, free travel home in case of illness or death in the family, free summer school including all the previous, and clothing. Each player gets $500 yearly to purchase clothing in addition to all the tee shirts and shoes and socks and shorts and sweatshirts etc they get for free. And that doesn't include gifts--very nice gifts--for playing in bowl games
And just in case they come from a poor family they still get their Pell grant which is spending money. That is another $5,000.
So a player has everything paid for and still has $5,000 to spend. Very few of these players will ever live such a comfortable life again. How many workers out in the real world have EVERYTHING paid for, have first class food and lodging, no bills, and still have 5,000 left to spend?
If I were in charge I would tell the players who want to be paid and think they can make anything remotely close in value to a scholarship, good luck, go out there and sign as many contracts for your services as you can find and be a professional. We wish you luck. But college football will continue to be an amateur sport just like it has been for more than a century. We'll find a thousand players who will gladly step in and take your place and the fans will never know the difference.
There may be 3 or 4 top high school players a year who are actually good enough to be paid--there are in basketball--and they should get every dime they can get from the professionals. If they can find a professional team that wants to pay them.
If a video company or any other company uses a college player's likeness they should be compensated.
I can't think of any other reason college athletes should be paid. 99% are all getting far more in the value of their scholarship than they will ever get paid by a professional team.
I had an athletic scholarship and we were treated so much better than the rest of the student body it was almost embarrassing at times. Just one example--we got to enroll before any other students so we could pick out any class times we wanted.
As for some of the arguments above:
Players are prevented by the NFL--not colleges--from entering the NFL, but if these guys really are good enough to get paid--and almost none of them are good enough to ever get paid a cent--they can join the Canadian League or the XFL.
I recall a player once calling me in shock at finding out he would have to pay the team to be allowed to even try out for a semi-pro team. But that's exactly how much almost every single college football and basketball player in the country is worth.
It is absurd--bordering on lunacy--to say the scholarships given to college athletes is "nowhere near their actual value"
Scholarships are worth a ton. We just saw what some of the richest people in the country are willing to pay just to get their kids INTO a school. In addition to being admitted they get room, board, books, tuition, tutors, medical, computers, free travel home in case of illness or death in the family, free summer school including all the previous, and clothing. Each player gets $500 yearly to purchase clothing in addition to all the tee shirts and shoes and socks and shorts and sweatshirts etc they get for free. And that doesn't include gifts--very nice gifts--for playing in bowl games
And just in case they come from a poor family they still get their Pell grant which is spending money. That is another $5,000.
So a player has everything paid for and still has $5,000 to spend. Very few of these players will ever live such a comfortable life again. How many workers out in the real world have EVERYTHING paid for, have first class food and lodging, no bills, and still have 5,000 left to spend?
If I were in charge I would tell the players who want to be paid and think they can make anything remotely close in value to a scholarship, good luck, go out there and sign as many contracts for your services as you can find and be a professional. We wish you luck. But college football will continue to be an amateur sport just like it has been for more than a century. We'll find a thousand players who will gladly step in and take your place and the fans will never know the difference.
There may be 3 or 4 top high school players a year who are actually good enough to be paid--there are in basketball--and they should get every dime they can get from the professionals. If they can find a professional team that wants to pay them.
If a video company or any other company uses a college player's likeness they should be compensated.
I can't think of any other reason college athletes should be paid. 99% are all getting far more in the value of their scholarship than they will ever get paid by a professional team.
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
In theory, the guys who would be getting money for their likeness are the same guys that are going to get huge money at the next level anyway .. other than the high school seniors who just signed who we don't know about yet and who just got that money because they were bribed by it to go to a particular school.
The average joe on the team, ostensibly the fella who needs it most, certainly won't be benefiting at the levels of the two groups above.
The average joe on the team, ostensibly the fella who needs it most, certainly won't be benefiting at the levels of the two groups above.
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
I will move on to high school football. I have no desire to watch professional athletes at colleges.
And then when high school's start paying ... I will go watch pop warner and when that starts making money, they will be sued because of the child labor !
So fucking ridiculous.
If you don't want to play... if not playing is in your best interest ... then don't play ... if it is in your best interest, don't piss on it.
And then when high school's start paying ... I will go watch pop warner and when that starts making money, they will be sued because of the child labor !
So fucking ridiculous.
If you don't want to play... if not playing is in your best interest ... then don't play ... if it is in your best interest, don't piss on it.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
And in exchange for that, the school gets the player on their team and their talents on the field. Now that they’re each benefitting from the transaction, we can move on to the millions each school is making off of those players’ likenesses and figure out a way to get the players a cut of that money.
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
If I was an athlete .. oh my ... $$$$ easy road through high school .. chicks, get that swagger early, get campus visits where they treat me like a king, more chicks at each campus, then get my free ride scholarship where I am guaranteed to succeed in the profession of my choosing because I can get the best tutoring the college has to offer and I don't have to worry about paying for anything. Make a ton of friends automatically so I don't have the fear of not fitting in ... oh man ... then get with the alumni and what not and have jobs ready for me the second I am done with school. just have way more opportunities that I could have otherwise .. oh and the school I picked can be a good one that I otherwise wouldn't qualify for but that I can succeed at because they want me to succeed. Oh man. Set. For. Life. Assuming I can avoid jail because I never learned about boundaries because I had it so easy throughout it all. Oh man...
"Sweet Dreams, Moonpie. That's a bad habit you've got there. You know what that habit will make you dream, Moonpie? You'll dream you're an executive. You'll have your hands on all the controls, and you will wear a gray suit, and you will make decisions. But you know what, Moonpie? You know what those executives dream about out there behind their desks? They dream they're great rollerballers. They dream they're Jonathan; they have muscles, they bash in faces."
"Sweet Dreams, Moonpie. That's a bad habit you've got there. You know what that habit will make you dream, Moonpie? You'll dream you're an executive. You'll have your hands on all the controls, and you will wear a gray suit, and you will make decisions. But you know what, Moonpie? You know what those executives dream about out there behind their desks? They dream they're great rollerballers. They dream they're Jonathan; they have muscles, they bash in faces."
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
The schools aren’t the ones who will be paying the players, so the point about only 10-20 schools being able to do this doesn’t make much sense.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
For football, there’s a little bit more there than just profit, they’re not necessarily mature enough physically to go against grown men.
Also the rules are set by the professional leagues, not the NCAA...so it’s not at all about profit for the NCAA, unless we think the NFL cares more about the NCAA getting paid than having players in their league who deserve it.
pressitup
Leader of the Adult Humor Industry
I look forward to a wannabe NFL bench warmer doing Joe Namath style panty hose commercials.
All we need is a 15yr old with a great 40 time doing panty hose commercials due to hype, that's leaning to StateU.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
But again, the scholarships are given in return for that player being on the team and helping the team win games. The billions that the NCAA and the schools are making are above and beyond just playing and trying to win games...so the players should get a cut of that pie, as well. In this scenario they aren’t even doing that, they’re getting money from outside sources for their likenesses.
It should be seen as two distinctly different issues, or “exchanges” (for lack of a better word). The scholarship is given in return for what they do on the field and is mutually beneficial. The money the NCAA and the schools make is a completely separate issue.
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
Why do they deserve a cut of that pie?
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Most people think the nba will be removing the 1 year rule in 2021 I believe
other interesting thing is you see a bunch of basketball players now going abroad and making money, rather than going ncaa, 2 of the likely top 10 picks next year went to Australia to play there
Csnt do that in football, since it's such a US only sport
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Does your company make in the billions?
And does it rely on mostly advertising and attendance and tv revenue, of people watching you do your job?
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
No, I am not in that business but my company's revenue is in the millions. I am in financial consulting. I perform my services for what they pay me and then they make their profit from my services. If the situation was better for me to perform my services for someone else, or do it on my own if there were no other good options, then I would do that. If I would rather change careers than work for the company at the deal they offer or work for someone else if available, or start up my own shop, then I would do that.
Seems simple to me.
Fondybadger
CTG Partner
They're just as beneficial to the NFL and NBA. It allows a feeder league that they don't have to pay for which is a huge reason the leagues have the rules they do.
takeit
THE Wife
It's odd to me that you would want to switch places with these athletes...
Broken homes
Single mom working 3 jobs
No father
Drugs
Crime and gangs
No one really cares about you only what you can do for them
Head injuries that will affect your whole life after 30
But HEY!!! I can get PUSSY easy and a free education! weeeeeee
Broken homes
Single mom working 3 jobs
No father
Drugs
Crime and gangs
No one really cares about you only what you can do for them
Head injuries that will affect your whole life after 30
But HEY!!! I can get PUSSY easy and a free education! weeeeeee
Are you enjoying the MAC right now?
RetroVK
This claim is disputed
Yup .. defense forcing fumbles, good running attacks, kids playing for the love of the game and school pride, instead of for cash. It's refreshing. I hope the NCAA is making bank on this ESPN2 money.
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