NBA Discussion Thread: Monday, April 3rd - Sunday, April 9th

[B.A.R.]

Lil Zeke has scored 31,31 and 30 in the previous 3 match-ups.

 

[tuck321]

Suns on 2 days usually confused. I assume they are given a cover as long as they work for it.

 

[B.A.R.]

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Lowry playing tonight vs. Pistons ... no minutes limit.

 

[nbafan88]

Lowry's conditioning should not be an issue... but still 5 weeks is a long time

detroit is on the do not bet list otherwise i would take them

 

[B.A.R.]

My quick thoughts there...

-Should be at least a 50/50 crowd there if not more 'We The North' in attendance

-If you like Toronto, I would wait and see flow with Lowry and play it 'live' if/when there is a good opportunity. That is the safest way.

-This is generally a go-to spot in April, especially with the fight for 3 seed but the Raptors are so odd to begin with and maybe not in rhythm tonight early with Lowry back.

 

[nbafan88]

Damn it. Conley is out

 

[Tito]

dammit Conley...Grizz still roll. No reasoning behind that, just blind hope

 

[emkee]

Larry Sanders gonna get some mins tonight.

Lue rolling out another one of Cramp's toys.

This team is so fucking motley.

 

[nbafan88]

dammit Conley...Grizz still roll. No reasoning behind that, just blind hope

Tony is back so that helps a lot.....


im still on them, hopefully an emotional let down for the thunder

 

[nbafan88]

big on miami +2.5

will be on the grizz, nuggets, & C's later

 

[Tito]

Tony is back so that helps a lot.....


im still on them, hopefully an emotional let down for the thunder

yeah, i have a feeling they step up tonight and okc has a less than stellar effort

 

[DeadEyeDuckie]

Anyone see a potential demolition show in San Antonio? Russell out tonight. Nick Young still not playing. Their bigs all banged up. Spurs not resting anybody. Thinking this could be one of those "smash them easy for a tune up" game

 

[nbafan88]

pistons with some 1q.....


that star player out/back angle is somethin else

 

[B.A.R.]

pistons with some 1q.....


that star player out/back angle is somethin else

They would be down 25 or so without Lowry is the kicker.

 

[B.A.R.]

Soft 2h line in Auburn Hills...

Screams Detroit wins.

 

[Zecco]

My quick thoughts there...

-Should be at least a 50/50 crowd there if not more 'We The North' in attendance

-If you like Toronto, I would wait and see flow with Lowry and play it 'live' if/when there is a good opportunity. That is the safest way.

-This is generally a go-to spot in April, especially with the fight for 3 seed but the Raptors are so odd to begin with and maybe not in rhythm tonight early with Lowry back.

So Raptors now are the perfect play ?
Hit them on the ML
Feel like if they come back they take it su. Stons gonna lay down once raps put a run on em

 

[B.A.R.]

So Raptors now are the perfect play ?
Hit them on the ML
Feel like if they come back they take it su. Stons gonna lay down once raps put a run on em

Just saw this.

Raps made one run in 3rd, then fell back. That, I guess, was one hell of a last 6 minutes or so.

 

[emkee]

Rondo OUT tonight with a sore wrist.

 

[B.A.R.]

Friday

[TABLE="class: frodds-data-tbl"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1"]4/07 7:35 PM
501 Miami
502 Toronto[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
208½u-10
-5 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
206½u-10
-5 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
206½u-10
-5 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextHot cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
206½u-10
-5 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
206½u-10
-5 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellBorderR1 betnow-picks center_text nowrap, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]MIA-F-Chris Bosh-OUT
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 7:35 PM
503 Atlanta
504 Cleveland[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
213½u-10
-9 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
214u-10
-10 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
214u-10
-10 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextHot cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
214u-10
-10 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
214u-10
-10 -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellBorderR1 betnow-picks center_text nowrap, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]TV: FS-Ohio, FS-Southeast, NBA, DTV: 216, 660, 677
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 8:05 PM
505 Detroit
506 Houston[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
223½u-10
-12½ -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
223½u-10
-12½ -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellBorderR1 betnow-picks center_text nowrap, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]TV: FS-Detroit, ROOT-Southwest, DTV: 663, 674
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 8:05 PM
507 New York
508 Memphis[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellBorderR1 center_text nowrap vertical-middle, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]NY-F-Kristaps Porzingis-? | NY-G-Derrick Rose-OUT | MEM-G-Mike Conley-? | TV: FS-Southeast, DTV: 677
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 8:35 PM
509 San Antonio
510 Dallas[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-4 -10
189½u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-2½ -15
190½u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellBorderR1 betnow-picks center_text nowrap, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]SA-F-LaMarcus Aldridge-OUT | SA-F-Kawhi Leonard-OUT | TV: FS-Southwest, DTV: 676
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 9:05 PM
511 Minnesota
512 Utah[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellBorderR1 center_text nowrap vertical-middle, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]MIN-G-Zach Lavine-OUT | UTA-G-George Hill-Doubtful | TV: FS-North, DTV: 668
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 9:05 PM
513 New Orleans
514 Denver[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
229½u-10
-6½ -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
229½u-10
-6½ -10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellBorderR1 betnow-picks center_text nowrap, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]NWO-F-DeMarcus Cousins-? | TV: Altitude, DTV: 681
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 10:05 PM
515 Oklahoma City
516 Phoenix[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-7 -10
225½u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-8 -10
226u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-8 -10
226u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextHot cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-8 -10
226u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]
-8 -10
226u-10[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg2 cellBorderR1 betnow-picks center_text nowrap, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]PHO-G-Eric Bledsoe-OUT | TV: FS-Arizona, FS-Oklahoma, NBA, DTV: 216, 676, 686
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1, width: 158"]04/07 10:35 PM
517 Sacramento
518 L.A. Lakers[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellTextNorm cellBorderL1 center_text nowrap, width: 56, align: center"]

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[TD="class: viCellBg1 cellBorderR1 center_text nowrap vertical-middle, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cellBorderR1 cellTextNorm game-notes, width: 751, bgcolor: #D6BD7B, colspan: 11"]SAC-F-Rudy Yag-OUT | LAL-PG-D'Angelo Russell-?[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[B.A.R.]

Stan finally waving the white flag.

Tomorrow will be Ellenson, Boban etc time.

 

[nbafan88]

Cavs should dominate.

Bud basically taking the L by resting millsap

 

[nbafan88]

Kawhi, LA, pau, manu, green all out for SA


Assuming because of the Spurs game on prime time....

 

[B.A.R.]

Kawhi, LA, pau, manu, green all out for SA


Assuming because of the Spurs game on prime time....

Moreso they have be absolutely nothing to play for.

 

[nbafan88]

schroeder, hardaway, bazemore, and Millsap sefolosha out tonight

 

[nbafan88]

no idea how atlanta stays competitive.... cavs wont be taking them for granted i dont think

 

[B.A.R.]

schroeder, hardaway, bazemore, and Millsap sefolosha out tonight

I'd tank this game too.

5th seed means Bullets then Cavs most likely.

Fall to 6, maybe 7 and the path is easier.

 

[B.A.R.]

Anderson back for Rockets tonight...limited minutes but wants to get into a rhythm for playoffs.

 

[B.A.R.]

It won't be pretty for ATL.

At same time Cavs can coast into postseason right now...

-14 is -14 no matter how you cut it. No way I'd bet the A-T-L though.

 

[Frank Costanza]

Chris HaynesESPN Staff Writer

Stephen Curry is listed as doubtful for Saturday's game against the Pelicans with a left knee contusion. He did not practice today.

 

[B.A.R.]

Gonna be some interesting injuries pop up here the next several days...

 

[emkee]

Asking the Cavs to win by 14+ after what they did against Boston is a tough ask.

Dwight could actually have a big game here.

Cramps the king of spread manipulation and shaving.

 

[nbafan88]

I'd tank this game too.

5th seed means Bullets then Cavs most likely.

Fall to 6, maybe 7 and the path is easier.

they could still miss the playoffs

 

[DeadEyeDuckie]

Kawhi, LA, pau, manu, green all out for SA


Assuming because of the Spurs game on prime time....

lol I'm still mad at Pops from the other day. Yes they rested no one against the Lakers, BUT in the second half he rested his main guys. Killed my 2nd half wager lol

 

[B.A.R.]

they could still miss the playoffs

Pick your poison with the Cle games.

Cavs will rest tomorrow.

It is the new NBA.

ATL has conference record tiebreaker with Miami so they are 2 game up in loss column plus that.

 

[emkee]

Some nice spots tonight but it may require committing the ultimate sin.

 

[cogenman]

ATL team total at 98.5. I like UNDER on that with the firepower they'll be without.

 

[B.A.R.]

Some nice spots tonight but it may require committing the ultimate sin.

If you bet the Cavs...:Watching2:

 

[emkee]

If you bet the Cavs...:Watching2:

Even worse...

 

[nbafan88]

Even worse...

utah :tiphat:


i'll wait for an ingame line under 7

 

[B.A.R.]

Prolly best idea with Minny games....

Running around with GSW then kinda with Portland they just may be out of gas tonight.

 

[B.A.R.]

Yup,

It has to be Utah.

lol

I was lining up for Denver during 3rd qtr last night in Portland but they are pretty much toast now.

 

[emkee]

Yep, sin committed.

Utah Jizz, let's f**king go.

Will bust out the tequila for this one.

 

[B.A.R.]

Tried c/p an article, no dice.

I'll clip and paste parts instead...



The Rockets held their final regular-season practice on Thursday, but did plan to use at least some of their remaining games, with nothing at stake in the standings, as tune-ups for the postseason.
"It's better practice I think against another opponent," Rockets coach Mike D'Antoni said. "They don't know all your stuff. You get a better practice in and you get sharper and you keep your conditioning. You get ready to play."

D'Antoni, however, will have to balance using those remaining games to get his team sharp for the postseason, but also to give players that need rest some time off.
"Rest is good. That's why we have days off and stuff," D'Antoni said. "We got to keep your wind up. I rely on my athletic trainers (Keith Jones and Jason Biles) and conditioning coach (Javair Gillett) to tell me what is best to get the guy to next Saturday or Sunday mentally and physically the best they can be. If they tell me he needs to sit out completely, they will. If they tell me, "He needs to play about 10 minutes of really high aerobic stuff,' then we will.

"It's a little bit of a process. They know the data. They know each player individually. Our team will be a little different from another team. I don't question what another team does. I figure they do the same thing we do. They look at the data and try to figure what is best and try to hit all the points."


The Rockets play Sunday and Monday with D'Antoni considering sitting out players in one of those games.
"Like Nene needs to rest and he'll do that," D'Antoni said. "Somebody like James (Harden), I think he's over his wrist and he had days off. We're going to be relying on him heavily in a week. You just can't play around for a week and say, "OK, I'll turn it on." Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. You have to be careful."

 

[nbafan88]

Dwight might sit too lol

 

[B.A.R.]

Is Dwight really a factor guys? :rofl:

 

[nbafan88]

schroeder probable now

 

[AtlHawks]

Is Dwight really a factor guys? :rofl:

:mean1:

Guarantee you he will be a factor in the playoffs...

 

[nbafan88]

screw it i'll pay to see the hawks keep it within 15

the cavs shouldnt lose focus with the playoffs coming up and they still need to lock up the #1 seed..... cavs have won on avg by 23 in friday home games this season

cavs -14.5

 

[B.A.R.]

Cavs gonna Cav...so-to-speak...

I'll never get why Boban doesn't get run. He just produces. He is eating the Rockets alive already.

Drummond under prop might have been stealing tonight. Kicking myself already.

 

[emkee]

Cavs gonna Cav...so-to-speak...

I'll never get why Boban doesn't get run. He just produces. He is eating the Rockets alive already.

Drummond under prop might have been stealing tonight. Kicking myself already.

Yep a legit 7-foot center with a better stroke than DJ and Drum.

Must be because he looks like an ogre.