Hall Of Fame 2016

tipyerbartender said:
Lar, I know you love Romo and Bonds, but playing well in the very last game of the season matters in these debates.
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No, it actually doesn't regardless of what YOU think. Plus, again, Bonds broke (and now holds a tied record) for HRs in a post season. He also walked a record number of times that post season. And, if Dusty Baker wasn't his manager, they would have won the WS. Did you watch a different series than everyone else on the face of the earth?

When your only argument is that someone didn't win a championship, you know damn well your stance is pretty weak and you're probably wrong. Dan Marino Tip....HOFer or no?
 
Lareux said:
Now it was the ball? Hahahahahahahaha. Tip, I actually used to respect your baseball talk and knowledge. JFC with these ridiculous comments though. Just say you didn't like Barry Bonds and we can move on, because you're really just sounding like a moron right now.
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"Ball jumping off the bat" was sort of a way to describe the era in which he played, not really a questioning of the ball itself. I'll try to be more specific in the future for your literal ass. He played in an era when runs and hits and home runs and RBI's and batting averages and slugging percentages were all up compared to previous eras, and to the following era which is marked by a crackdown on the steroid abuse, for which he was the fucking poster child.
 
I mean, in the same thread we have one person making a big deal out of someone not winning a title in a team sport and another kind of diminishing another's accomplishments because he was on a great team and won a bunch of titles. Which one is it guys?
 
tipyerbartender said:
"Ball jumping off the bat" was sort of a way to describe the era in which he played, not really a questioning of the ball itself. I'll try to be more specific in the future for your literal ass. He played in an era when runs and hits and home runs and RBI's and batting averages and slugging percentages were all up compared to previous eras, and to the following era which is marked by a crackdown on the steroid abuse, for which he was the fucking poster child.
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But his numbers were far and away better than everyone else's, so your point is moot. The ball and how it was jumping was equal for everyone he was playing with right? He was the best player in his generation, only Griffey is even in the conversation....and this is a pretty widely held belief by any "baseball" guy you ask about it.
 
Lareux said:
No, it actually doesn't regardless of what YOU think. Plus, again, Bonds broke (and now holds a tied record) for HRs in a post season. He also walked a record number of times that post season. And, if Dusty Baker wasn't his manager, they would have won the WS. Did you watch a different series than everyone else on the face of the earth?

When your only argument is that someone didn't win a championship, you know damn well your stance is pretty weak and you're probably wrong. Dan Marino Tip....HOFer or no?
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I watched every inning of that series. The Angels earned it, Dusty Baker didn't lose it.

Marino is a HOFer, but he's no Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Otto Graham. History is cruel that way.
 
tipyerbartender said:
I watched every inning of that series. The Angels earned it, Dusty Baker didn't lose it.

Marino is a HOFer, but he's no Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Otto Graham. History is cruel that way.
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lol, seriously? Tip, the Giants were up 5-0 heading to the 7th inning in Game 6 to clinch the series. Let's add another to the list of something I've literally only heard you say...the Giants, and Dusty Baker didn't blow that series. You do have unique opinions, we can at least say that.
 
Giants manager Dusty Baker pulled starting pitcher Russ Ortiz for setup man Félix Rodríguez after Ortiz gave up consecutive singles to third baseman Troy Glaus and designated hitter Brad Fullmer. In a widely publicized move, Baker gave Ortiz the game ball as he sent him back to the dugout.

The comeback from a five-run deficit was the largest in World Series history for an elimination game.

Barry Bonds had been pre-elected as World Series MVP during the travel day, and would have been presented the award had the Giants held on to the lead in this game.
 
Lareux said:
But his numbers were far and away better than everyone else's, so your point is moot. The ball and how it was jumping was equal for everyone he was playing with right? He was the best player in his generation, only Griffey is even in the conversation....and this is a pretty widely held belief by any "baseball" guy you ask about it.
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You asked me who was better all time, and since 1969. I did my best to discount numbers because of his era, account for his rampant steroid abuse, and account for his post season failure.

He is one of the top five regular season offensive players of his own era.
 
tipyerbartender said:
I watched every inning of that series. The Angels earned it, Dusty Baker didn't lose it.

Marino is a HOFer, but he's no Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Otto Graham. History is cruel that way.
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You were drunk. Baker blew it. Only time in MLB history that a team blew a 5 run lead in a WS clinching game. He leaves Ortiz in like any sane person would have done and the Giants win the Series.
 
tipyerbartender said:
You asked me who was better all time, and since 1969. I did my best to discount numbers because of his era, account for his rampant steroid abuse, and account for his post season failure.

He is one of the top five regular season offensive players of his own era.
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But you didn't mention anyone who was a better 5 tool baseball player than Bonds...that was the exercise. You named hitters who may arguably have been better (like literally one or two of them could be argued, that's it). Ironically, again, you listed another PED user on your list in Manny (who may have been as close to Bonds as you can get as a hitter).

We're talking baseball players Tip, not just hitters. I'll keep waiting for just 3 players.
 
Lareux said:
lol, seriously? Tip, the Giants were up 5-0 heading to the 7th inning in Game 6 to clinch the series. Let's add another to the list of something I've literally only heard you say...the Giants, and Dusty Baker didn't blow that series. You do have unique opinions, we can at least say that.
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Sometimes teams blow it, sometimes teams win it. The Angels won it.
 
Tip, if you're not actually just trolling to have fun, I have lost all respect for you as a baseball guy. This is embarrassing.
 
I'll never blame a manager for "blowing" a five-run lead. Look to the field for that sort of credit.
 
Lareux said:
But you didn't mention anyone who was a better 5 tool baseball player than Bonds...that was the exercise. You named hitters who may arguably have been better (like literally one or two of them could be argued, that's it). Ironically, again, you listed another PED user on your list in Manny (who may have been as close to Bonds as you can get as a hitter).

We're talking baseball players Tip, not just hitters. I'll keep waiting for just 3 players.
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In which post did I enter this exercise? I'm sure I did, I'm also sure it was somewhat rhetorical, not an invitation for word-by-word dissection. lar, you're a careful reader and writer, but you have room for improvement in recognizing the spirit of a message.

Here's what I think about Bonds. He was one of the best players of his time, maybe the best. He is nowhere in the conversation for top five of all time, considering his era and his dark clouds. He never won it all, and certainly failed on this stage prior to eating his spinach. He blatantly cheated, disgraced his sport, I would never support his HOF candidacy
 
Is this thread still about the 2016 Hall of Fame vote?

If it is, I think Griffey and Piazza got in, maybe someone else.
 
Lareux said:
But you blame one player on a roster for not winning a championship? Makes perfect sense. Hahahahahahahaha.
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Bonds played for two decades. You'd think the GOAT would bump into one, wouldn't you?
 
tipyerbartender said:
In which post did I enter this exercise? I'm sure I did, I'm also sure it was somewhat rhetorical, not an invitation for word-by-word dissection. lar, you're a careful reader and writer, but you have room for improvement in recognizing the spirit of a message.

Here's what I think about Bonds. He was one of the best players of his time, maybe the best. He is nowhere in the conversation for top five of all time, considering his era and his dark clouds. He never won it all, and certainly failed on this stage prior to eating his spinach. He blatantly cheated, disgraced his sport, I would never support his HOF candidacy
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You said you could name 5 PLAYERS in "your era" that were better than Bonds. Please don't make me have to quote the post. You haven't even named one as of yet, as all you've done is listed a few hitters who may or may not have been even close, and one of them (the best one you listed) used PEDs himself. How did I misconstrue your words? Or, are you actually admitting that there's not a chance in hell you can name 5 better baseball players?
 
Lareux said:
You said you could name 5 PLAYERS in "your era" that were better than Bonds. Please don't make me have to quote the post. You haven't even named one as of yet, as all you've done is listed a few hitters who may or may not have been even close, and one of them (the best one you listed) used PEDs himself. How did I misconstrue your words? Or, are you actually admitting that there's not a chance in hell you can name 5 better baseball players?
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Perhaps I was overvaluing October.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Bonds played for two decades. You'd think the GOAT would bump into one, wouldn't you?
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Yeah, he probably should have. He actually did if it wasn't for Dusty Baker, but no need to make excuses. Someone not winning a title has nothing to do with how good of a player they were in any sport that is a team sport. It's just ludicrous to suggest that it does.

This will get you all riled up too....you should have mentioned A-Rod. He's one player who could probably be in the conversation with Bonds and Griffey.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Don't throw a pitcher that isn't healthy out there and that had already blown Game 2 of the Series.
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Especially when the one you had on the mound was working on a shutout with a 5 run lead. I don't think anyone but Dusty Baker would have made that move. He notoriously ruined the careers of Wood and Prior in Chicago...dude just doesn't know how to manage his pitchers. And somehow, amazingly, he just got another managerial job. I love Dusty Baker too, but a manager of pitchers and a bullpen, he is not.
 
A-Rod's kind of like Bonds in my eyes, as far as legacy. I guess A-Rod is still a work in progress, but we're pretty sure he's a pariah. Bonds didn't get the mea culpa season A-Rod just had, Bonds had to slither away in shame.

You guys are right about those guys (Bonds and Clemens) getting in. Their numbers are rising, I think (?), didn't look at last year's. Some old voters must have died.
 
tipyerbartender said:
A-Rod's kind of like Bonds in my eyes, as far as legacy. I guess A-Rod is still a work in progress, but we're pretty sure he's a pariah. Bonds didn't get the mea culpa season A-Rod just had, Bonds had to slither away in shame.

You guys are right about those guys (Bonds and Clemens) getting in. Their numbers are rising, I think (?), didn't look at last year's. Some old voters must have died.
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Actually, they removed the vote from about 100 voters because they haven't actually covered baseball in quite some time. What we have left right now seems like the guys we should have had all along. There were dudes who hadn't written an article or covered a team in a decade or two that still had a vote.

And yes, both Bonds and Clemens numbers are up. I think it was like 10% more of the vote they each got, but their vote percentage went up like 35% each (or something close). They will both get in within a few years.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Sort of a team game...remind me when Ted Williams, Ken Griffey Jr., or Ty Cobb won a World Series ?
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Excellent point, but you did have to span a century. I can't comment much on Ty Cobb. Ted Williams was usually second-best to the Yankees. And no one's ever really calling Grif a top-fiver, although I truly loved watching that guy play live more than Bonds. He covered CF like easy Sunday morning.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Excellent point, but you did have to span a century. I can't comment much on Ty Cobb. Ted Williams was usually second-best to the Yankees. And no one's ever really calling Grif a top-fiver, although I truly loved watching that guy play live more than Bonds. He covered CF like easy Sunday morning.
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Yaz, Ichiro, Ernie Banks, Tony Gwynn, Harmon Killebrew
 
I think Thome juiced. Think just about everyone on that '95-'97 Tribe did except the old guys and Lofton.
 
tipyerbartender said:
I think Thome juiced. Think just about everyone on that '95-'97 Tribe did except the old guys and Lofton.
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Damn, those dudes had 5-6 years on Bonds and the juice. Let's compare their stats to his from 95-99, that should be fun. I mean, PEDs make you a better baseball player, so surely guys should have been dwarfing Bonds' numbers when he wasn't even using yet.
 
So many great pics of Kittle, but that one seemed like it could have been taken right after your comment.
 
Lareux said:
Ryne Sandberg, Mike Piazza, Frank Thomas, Biggio, McCovey, Andre Dawson, Carlton Fisk, Dale Murphy, Jim Thome (lol)
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Lar, you can probably go 50-more deep, but not among the very best of the very best. I'm sorry, but in all sports, championships kind of break the ties. Some greats even get the big hits or win the 7th game. Sorry if you think that's unfair.
 
And Tip, this always gets brought up (and should) anytime people want to lessen accomplishments/careers for someone who used/was suspected of using PEDs. What about the decades and decades that they popped greenies like they were tic tacs?
 
tipyerbartender said:
Lar, you can probably go 50-more deep, but not among the very best of the very best. I'm sorry, but in all sports, championships kind of break the ties. Some greats even get the big hits or win the 7th game. Sorry if you think that's unfair.
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Championships only come up when someone knows their guys aren't as good as the others and need something to make them feel better. It's okay, it happens a lot in all sports.
 
Hell Vlad never won anything that I know of and he might be 75 for all we know. Assume he's a shoe in next year.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Hell Vlad never won anything that I know of and he might be 75 for all we know. Assume he's a shoe in next year.
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He should be well over 90% if those guys know anything. Dude could just mash a ball from his shoelaces to the pine tar on the top of his helmet, there literally wasn't a place you could throw it that he couldn't hit it...and out of the park just for shits and giggles. He also could run a bit and had one of the best arms many of us have ever seen.
 
But there's no doubt that Marino/Malone/Barkley will never be thought of as the best of the best, because they couldn't win the big one. Peyton at least got one, but so he's there I guess like Favre, but I certainly consider postseason as a measuring stick.
 
Lareux said:
And Tip, this always gets brought up (and should) anytime people want to lessen accomplishments/careers for someone who used/was suspected of using PEDs. What about the decades and decades that they popped greenies like they were tic tacs?
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We've talked about this before, I don't think it's a big deal, you do. The greenies were in cereal bowls out in the open, like sunflower seeds for everyone. The roids were injected in private back bedrooms by dentists without degrees.
 
Lareux said:
He should be well over 90% if those guys know anything. Dude could just mash a ball from his shoelaces to the pine tar on the top of his helmet. He also could run a bit and had one of the best arms many of us have ever seen.
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Best 5-tool player I've seen in my time when he was healthy. Again, he might have been 10 years older than his Topps card said.
 
tipyerbartender said:
We've talked about this before, I don't think it's a big deal, you do. The greenies were in cereal bowls out in the open, like sunflower seeds for everyone. The roids were injected in private back bedrooms by dentists without degrees.
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They weren't though, many estimates now have well more than half of the league using something. And it sure seemed like well over 70% when it was all going on.

Either way, their performances were enhanced. Just because it was more out in the open changes what exactly? I'd again just point out that Bonds wasn't even doing anything until he saw these schmucks getting called better baseball players than he was...so he kind of just shut everyone up with 3-4 years of astonishing numbers.

I don't understand how one isn't a big deal to you but the other is. Unless, of course it's just because you don't like someone and have to find a way to justify your opinion.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Hell Vlad never won anything that I know of and he might be 75 for all we know. Assume he's a shoe in next year.
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Not even close to a first ballot HOF guy. I think he gets in but it's gonna take a while. Ivan Rodriguez and Manny are first time on ballot next year as well and both have much stronger cases.
 
My HOF would have Gooden, Strawberry, Keith, hell the whole '86 Mets team for that matter, Willie Wilson, Amos Otis...that's where I start
 
ArizonaKid said:
Not even close to a first ballot HOF guy. I think he gets in but it's gonna take a while. Ivan Rodriguez and Manny are first time on ballot next year as well and both have much stronger cases.
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Really? Surprised to hear you say that. Vlad is easily a first ballot guy for me...what more could he have done?

I agree about the other two, but both of those dudes are "PED guys," so you may see them waiting a year or more. All 3 of them are first ballot guys for me, but I don't have a vote.

Most guys I've heard/read talk about next year's class all have Vladdy getting in.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Not even close to a first ballot HOF guy. I think he gets in but it's gonna take a while. Ivan Rodriguez and Manny are first time on ballot next year as well and both have much stronger cases.
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I would be literally shocked if Vlad didn't get in on the first ballot, with more votes than Manny who will get in as well. Pudge likely will as well...but just kinda funny to think the big 3 on the ballot for the first time have names of Guerrero, Ramirez and Rodriguez.
 
The thing with Manny is that he was actually suspended, TWICE, for using PEDs.

I absolutely love Manny, think he was one of the top 3 hitters I've ever seen swing a bat (and was a righty at that). But he can't possibly get in before Bonds and Clemens if the voters have any common sense.
 
Lareux said:
Really? Surprised to hear you say that. Vlad is easily a first ballot guy for me...what more could he have done?

I agree about the other two, but both of those dudes are "PED guys," so you may see them waiting a year or more. All 3 of them are first ballot guys for me, but I don't have a vote.

Most guys I've heard/read talk about next year's class all have Vladdy getting in.
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I'd put money on him not getting in next year.

Great peak but that didn't last long. Hard to put him in and then with close to the same stats tell Fred McGriff sorry your not in.

Vlad finished with 449 homers and 1496 RBi's which are 38th and 54th all time. Career WAR is something like 145th best.
 
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