Hall Of Fame 2016

hugh613

hugh613

Pretty much a regular
Griffey obviously, but who else? Signs point to Piazza as highly likely, with Bagwell and Raines tailing behind. Then there's Mussina and Schilling, with cases to be made for Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman as well. And, it goes without saying, PEDeration X shouldn't bother waiting by the phone.
 
I don't think Billy Wagner has a case at all. Hoffman will get in at some point. It's almost now or never for Tim Raines and I am firmly in the Raines is a HOF camp. Pretty sure Piazza gets in this year. I ccertainly don't understand how Barry Larkin gets in on his 3rd try while Trammel is still waiting.

Of the first year on ballot guys, only Griffey, Hoffman, and Edmonds deserve consideration, and while I don't think Edmonds deserves to get in he should at least get 5% to stay on the ballot.

Hopefully at some point Bonds and Clemens get the call and are awarded their rightful place in the HOF.
 
Why Hoffman but not Wagner? I'm not a huge metrics guy like the rest of you, so I can't really argue that side of it all that well, but their careers essentially parallel one another. Plus, let's face it, had either Wagner or Hoffman had the luxury of pitching for the Yankees, we'd be anointing either or as the greatest closer of all time.
 
Hoffman has about 180 more saves and is 2nd all-time I believe. Hoffman just did it longer, in 2009 at the age of 41 he had 37 saves w/ a sub 2 era. Twice Hoffman finished in the top 10 in MVP balloting.
 
ArizonaKid said:
I don't think Billy Wagner has a case at all. Hoffman will get in at some point. It's almost now or never for Tim Raines and I am firmly in the Raines is a HOF camp. Pretty sure Piazza gets in this year. I ccertainly don't understand how Barry Larkin gets in on his 3rd try while Trammel is still waiting.

Of the first year on ballot guys, only Griffey, Hoffman, and Edmonds deserve consideration, and while I don't think Edmonds deserves to get in he should at least get 5% to stay on the ballot.

Hopefully at some point Bonds and Clemens get the call and are awarded their rightful place in the HOF.
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:shake:
 
I think Raines should be in.

Piazza is getting in, and should...

Should Schill and Moose get in? Jimmy Edmonds no way...

And I agree with AZ....Bonds and Rocket IN
 
ArizonaKid said:
Hoffman has about 180 more saves and is 2nd all-time I believe. Hoffman just did it longer, in 2009 at the age of 41 he had 37 saves w/ a sub 2 era. Twice Hoffman finished in the top 10 in MVP balloting.
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Don't mean to turn this into a Billy Wagner vs. Trevor Hoffman thing, because it's not: I think both deserve to be in, but pretty sure neither one will as the HOF doesn't seem to think much of either relief pitchers or DH's. As for the H2H comparison,

Wagner finished his career at the age of 38, coming off a 37 save season with the Braves, wheras Hoffman pitched until the age of 42. Wagner with 422 saves in 491 opportunities, while Hoffman had 601 in 677 opportunities.

And as for Wagner overall:

There is definitely a strong Hall of Fame case to be made for Wagner. He is fifth on baseball's all-time saves list. No man enshrined in Cooperstown, N.Y., has more saves than Wagner's 422.

His 2.31 ERA is better than five Hall of Fame relievers - Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter and Dennis Eckersley. His save percentage is also better than Eckersely (84.6), Fingers (75.4), Sutter (74.8) and Gossage (73.5).

Among pitchers with at least 900 innings, Wagner's career 11.92 strikeouts per nine innings and .187 opponent's batting average are the best in history.

He appeared capable of getting a few more years and dozens more saves out of his powerful left arm when he retired after the 2010 season despite notching 37 saves with a career-best 1.43 ERA and 104 strikeouts in 69 1/3 innings for the Braves.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/spo...-s-numbers-measure-up-for-Hall-of-6735915.php
 
And don't mean to sound like a broken record about it, or take anything away from the guy, but if Rivera spends his entire career with either the Astros or Padres, and one of either Wagner or Hoffman pitches for the Yankees, the whole conversation regarding "greatest closer of all time" gets turned on its head as far as I'm concerned.
 
Wagner didn't get it done in the postseason, simple as that.

As for Schilling, a definite yes and I think Mussina will eventually get in.
 
Well Griffey is in first ballot as expected but somehow is not a unanimous choice, recieving 437 of 440 votes. As far as I'm conerned those 3 voters that said no to Griffey should never be allowed to vote again.

Piazza is the only other person inducted, and with his self admitted use of Andro this is big news for several players down the line in their quest to get into the Hall.

Raines jumped up to 69.8% and that is good because he only has one year left on the ballot and hopefully gets in next year.
 
Grif was the only obvious first-timer this year. I can make a good case for a bunch of guys in days gone by over Piazza. And I shed no tears for one-inning relief pitchers who don't get in.
 
Raines toiled in baseball Siberia. Now THERE'S a guy who would probably have been in a long time ago had he spent his prime in the AL East.
 
Clemens and Bonds shouldn't get in, you guys are nuts. They're walking, living, breathing disgraces. I'd sooner be on board for Rose, mostly out of pity for the old mutt, but he doesn't belong either.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Clemens and Bonds shouldn't get in, you guys are nuts. They're walking, living, breathing disgraces. I'd sooner be on board for Rose, mostly out of pity for the old mutt, but he doesn't belong either.
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Are you going to retroactively remove players from HOF for their drug use ?
 
tipyerbartender said:
Clemens and Bonds shouldn't get in, you guys are nuts. They're walking, living, breathing disgraces. I'd sooner be on board for Rose, mostly out of pity for the old mutt, but he doesn't belong either.
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Just stop. First of all, both of them were easy HOFers before any scandals. Secondly, Piazza just got it. If you're not going to exclude everyone from that era (I don't think they should exclude them all) who had suspicion (pretty much anyone), then you just have to vote like nothing happened. Either everyone from that era is in who should be, or no one is from that era who should be. They can't be picking and choosing who to induct. Piazza got in, you'll see Bonds and Clemens in soon enough.

Probably the only other player who should/would have garnered as much of the vote as Griffey did was Bonds. Barry Bonds is the best player any of us has ever seen play, and it's really not even that close. Griffey should be under just as much suspiscion as the rest of them, we've already talked about the injuries he suffered late in his career and how many of them were notorious "steroid" injuries. I don't necessarily think he did, nor do I care that any of them did any of it either.

Bonds did did it to prove a point in the first place. Sosa and McGwire were getting all of the pub about how they were the best power hitters, etc. Bonds said okay, let's even the playing field and see how that goes for everyone else...we all saw how that went. He's a top 5 player of all time and Tip wants to keep him out of the HOF. Hahahaha.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Are you going to retroactively remove players from HOF for their drug use ?
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If I were a voter, I would consider what I know or maybe even suspect at the time of my vote, and wouldn't lose any sleep about what comes out later. These particular two were a couple of the best players of their time, but they fucked with father time while they were still playing. To include them would be a crime against every border liner who ever played it straight. Fuck 'em. You can tell your grandkids to tell their grandkids about them.
 
Lareux said:
Just stop. First of all, both of them were easy HOFers before any scandals. Secondly, Piazza just got it. If you're not going to exclude everyone from that era (I don't think they should exclude them all) who had suspicion (pretty much anyone), then you just have to vote like nothing happened. Either everyone from that era is in who should be, or no one is from that era who should be. They can't be picking and choosing who to induct. Piazza got in, you'll see Bonds and Clemens in soon enough.

Probably the only other player who should/would have garnered as much of the vote as Griffey did was Bonds. Barry Bonds is the best player any of us has ever seen play, and it's really not even that close. Griffey should be under just as much suspiscion as the rest of them, we've already talked about the injuries he suffered late in his career and how many of them were notorious "steroid" injuries. I don't necessarily think he did, nor do I care that any of them did any of it either.

Bonds did did it to prove a point in the first place. Sosa and McGwire were getting all of the pub about how they were the best power hitters, etc. Bonds said okay, let's even the playing field and see how that goes for everyone else...we all saw how that went. He's a top 5 player of all time and Tip wants to keep him out of the HOF. Hahahaha.
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Piazza shouldn't be in.
 
Bonds is not a top fiver of all time without steroids.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Bonds is not a top fiver of all time without steroids.
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Okay. Well the stats and metrics certainly had him on his way. I know you don't like stats and stuff, but what eye test were you using to come up with that? How many MVPs did he win before 2001?
 
tipyerbartender said:
If I were a voter, I would consider what I know or maybe even suspect at the time of my vote, and wouldn't lose any sleep about what comes out later. These particular two were a couple of the best players of their time, but they fucked with father time while they were still playing. To include them would be a crime against every border liner who ever played it straight. Fuck 'em. You can tell your grandkids to tell their grandkids about them.
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Again though, Bonds didn't do anything for Father Time...he did it to prove a point. The point that he was the best player in baseball, the best power hitter if he wanted to be, etc. And when he leveled the playing field he proved that a few times over.
 
He's not even a top fiver in my time. He's a fraud and a choke.
 
tipyerbartender said:
He's not even a top fiver in my time. He's a fraud and a choke.
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A choke? Hahaha. Any idea who holds the record for most HRs in a playoffs? You don't even need a hint at this point. He's tied with 2 others now, but your idea of him being a choker is hilarious. He probably walked about 3 dozen times that post season as well. He literally walked or hit home runs for like 3 straight seasons.
 
This is why you'd never be given a vote to begin with (if they started handing out votes for some odd reason). You're not reasonable in the least bit, and let your emotions and whether or not you like someone run your opinions. The HOF is based on stats and how good of a baseball player someone is...Bonds and Clemens not being in the HOF would be as much of a joke as Pete Rose not being in.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Raines toiled in baseball Siberia. Now THERE'S a guy who would probably have been in a long time ago had he spent his prime in the AL East.
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What about his cocaine use Tip? Admitted cocaine use that is, he even told everyone that he slid head first so not to break the vial of cocaine in his back pocket.
 
hugh613 said:
And don't mean to sound like a broken record about it, or take anything away from the guy, but if Rivera spends his entire career with either the Astros or Padres, and one of either Wagner or Hoffman pitches for the Yankees, the whole conversation regarding "greatest closer of all time" gets turned on its head as far as I'm concerned.
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Could be right for sure, but is this what we do now? Should we go back for every player who played on a good team and lessen his accomplishments because he was surrounded by talent? By the way, the Astros were pretty damn nasty for quite some time while Wagner was there.
 
Lar, any of your other top five of all time never win a championship, get better in their late 30's, or bounce a throw home behind Sid "The Rocket" Bream to cost his team a series?
 
tipyerbartender said:
Lar, any of your other top five GOT's never win a championship, get better in their late 30's, or bounce a throw home behind Sid "The Rocket" Bream to cost his team a series?
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Yes, the Sid Bream throw...hahahahahahaha. You're right, the whole series was lost on one throw. It's like arguing with a 6 year old.

Again, Bonds got better for sure, but his numbers before that were easily HOF worthy. I honestly haven't ever heard anyone say otherwise, so you're the first.

Still waiting for even 3 players "in your time" who were better...
 
You don't think I can name three better players than Barry Bonds since 1969? Are you nuts?
 
Give me a few pitchers for starters. I'll take Pedro and Maddux and Nolan Ryan.
 
No, I don't. I mean he is widely considered of the the top 5 players of all time, I didn't realize it was even that debatable.
 
We are talking baseball players. Pitchers are a separate category and should be. Those guys you mentioned are the top of the class, for sure...but they pitched every 5 days. Let's talk like adults.
 
The way you quickly dismissed him, I'd have thought you had a list of players better than him. You still haven't mentioned one.
 
Sadly I've become more interested in gold gloves than the annual Hall of Politics debate
 
Brett, Molitor, Winfield, Murray all superior hitters to Bonds prior to PEDS. These are just guys from my youth. Manny superior hitter to Bonds during PEDS. When we THINK both might have been clean, Manny was a better hitter than Bonds. We're just talking hitting here. Bonds could do it all, except throw out Sid Bream to extend a series.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Brett, Molitor, Winfield, Murray all superior hitters to Bonds prior to PEDS. These are just guys from my youth. Manny superior hitter to Bonds during PEDS. When we THINK both might have been clean, Manny was a better hitter than Bonds. We're just talking hitting here. Bonds could do it all, except throw out Sid Bream to extend a series.
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OMG you have zero clue as too what you are talking about. There literally is only 4-5 players in baseball history that match what Bonds did offensively pre steriods, and by that I mean prior to 1999. I had an apartment right next to the Giants spring training facility and am fairly certain that between the 98 and 99 seasons is when he started juicing.
 
ArizonaKid said:
OMG you have zero clue as too what you are talking about. There literally is only 4-5 players in baseball history that match what Bonds did offensively pre steriods, and by that I mean prior to 1999. I had an apartment right next to the Giants spring training facility and am fairly certain that between the 98 and 99 seasons is when he started juicing.
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You have equally zero clue. He played, PEDS or no PEDS, when the ball was jumping off the bat like no other time in a over a century of the game. It would be like averaging 50 ppg in basketball with a 12-second shot clock. I'm more impressed with the first few seasons of Mike Trout, or the last five seasons of Miggy, when pitching has ruled, than I ever was with Bonds. And all those numbers, all those playoff games, no signature moment.
 
ArizonaKid said:
of course you list a PED user :rofl:



Only Griffey could challange Bonds as best player in the 90's.
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Yeah, I thought that was funny too, but really just focused on the fact he mentioned pitchers.

Agree about Griffey too, which I already even admitted to Tip. They are the best two players I've ever seen play baseball. And I really don't even think it's that close. I love guys like Ichiro, Rickey Henderson, Vladdy...but Grumpy and Bonds were just better than them all. Maybe someone like Trout or Bryant at some point will eclipse them, but those are some BIIIIIGGGG shoes to fill.
 
Plus he cheated, and his head grew into Star Wars monster range.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Brett, Molitor, Winfield, Murray all superior hitters to Bonds prior to PEDS. These are just guys from my youth. Manny superior hitter to Bonds during PEDS. When we THINK both might have been clean, Manny was a better hitter than Bonds. We're just talking hitting here. Bonds could do it all, except throw out Sid Bream to extend a series.
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Not one of those players, except maybe Winfield are even in the same stratosphere as Bonds. And you know it, which is why you say "better hitter" or whatever. They weren't even better hitters to begin with, but you should probably start naming some 5 tool players of you're really going to embarrass yourself.
 
Yes Tip, he didn't throw a guy out at home in 1992. Keep bringing that up as if it proves a point or something. Like I said, you're a 6 year old, and you just keep proving it every post you write.
 
Lareux said:
Yes Tip, he didn't throw a guy out at home in 1992. Keep bringing that up as if it proves a point or something. Like I said, you're a 6 year old, and you just keep proving it every post you write.
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Lar, I know you love Romo and Bonds, but playing well in the very last game of the season matters in these debates.
 
tipyerbartender said:
You have equally zero clue. He played, PEDS or no PEDS, when the ball was jumping off the bat like no other time in a over a century of the game. It would be like averaging 50 ppg in basketball with a 12-second shot clock. I'm more impressed with the first few seasons of Mike Trout, or the last five seasons of Miggy, when pitching has ruled, than I ever was with Bonds. And all those numbers, all those playoff games, no signature moment.
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Now it was the ball? Hahahahahahahaha. Tip, I actually used to respect your baseball talk and knowledge. JFC with these ridiculous comments though. Just say you didn't like Barry Bonds and we can move on, because you're really just sounding like a moron right now.
 
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