Black Monday for Coaches..

[Lareux]

The guys hiring the guys keeps changing. Browns have also had a bunch of GM's, team prezes, football czars, and three owners in 15 years.

Haslam fired Holmgrem because he used to beat him into work. And Haslam was coming from Tennessee.

I actually do like Haslam. He's going to get it right, I think. He needs to cut that QB he drafted though.

Right, so it was the owners who were the issue. The Lerners ran it the same way since the Browns got back to Cleveland...continually hiring and firing GM, presidents, football czars, coaches, coordinators, ball boys.

I hope you're right about Haslam too, just like we're hoping with Pegula, but so far in 2 or 3 years Haslam has run things the exact same way as the Lerners. Are you just hoping that a light bulb somehow goes off in Haslam's head one day and he is granted this magical power to know what he's doing? (kidding, but that may be what it takes based on his reign so far)

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Haslam cares. I always got the feeling that someone had to remind the Lerner family they owned the Browns.

 

[Lareux]

Haslam cares. I always got the feeling that someone had to remind the Lerner family they owned the Browns.

Pegula cares too...caring doesn't do much more than endear yourself to fans unless you can actually run a fucking NFL team the right way. Ultimately, even if you aren't a Jerry Jones type, you will be making the decision as to who runs the day to day operations for your organization, and if you can't get it right at some point...you're probably in the wrong business.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Remember that tweet by Pettine's daughter: "Its the browns.. But hey, still pretty cool!"

:rofl:

I like Pettine. He had no quarterback, no receivers, down to his fourth center, he coaxed 7 wins out of a team that usually wins 4.

 

[hugh613]

I like Pettine. He had no quarterback, no receivers, down to his fourth center, he coaxed 7 wins out of a team than usually wins 4.

Think I only watched one Browns game this season, but based on what would people would say during the in games, didn't his conservative approach end up costing the Browns a few more potential wins as well (I'm thinking specifically about the last Ravens game).

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Think I only watched one Browns game this season, but based on what would people would say during the in games, didn't his conservative approach end up costing the Browns a few more potential wins as well (I'm thinking specifically about the last Ravens game).

I can pin the loss at Jax on the coach, but the whole team played like shit. I can pin the loss at home to Cincy, the Manziel debacle, on the whole organization. Vince Lombardi might have nudged this team to eight wins. They don't have a quarterback.

 

[Lareux]

I can pin the loss at Jax on the coach, but the whole team played like shit. I can pin the loss at home to Cincy, the Manziel debacle, on the whole organization. Vince Lombardi might have nudged this team to eight wins. They don't have a quarterback.

They traded back into the first round to draft a QB that many, many, many people thought would be another bust...and now after 1 season he very well may be...yet isn't Haslam and the front office still under the impression that Manziel is the answer? That's kinda what's come out since Shanny Jr. left...and what's this I hear about the front office sending text messages during the game to Pettine instructing him what to do, which Shanny Jr apparently thought was the last straw? You're confident Haslam is the right man and has the right guys in place though huh?

 

[Lareux]

This tool shanny is going to get a HC interview? lol

Already took place too...they met with, and interviewed him today.

The Bills are up to like 12 candidates that they've interviewed. Both Shannys are on that list.

 

[dudleysdad]

Already took place too...they met with, and interviewed him today.

Hope for ur sake, they pass on him

 

[tipyerbartender1]

They traded back into the first round to draft a QB that many, many, many people thought would be another bust...and now after 1 season he very well may be...yet isn't Haslam and the front office still under the impression that Manziel is the answer? That's kinda what's come out since Shanny Jr. left...and what's this I hear about the front office sending text messages during the game to Pettine instructing him what to do, which Shanny Jr apparently thought was the last straw? You're confident Haslam is the right man and has the right guys in place though huh?

I get a good vibe from Haslam, it appears it's important to him to get it right. I never liked Lerner, Randy nor the old man. That family had more to do with the Browns leaving Cleveland than Modell.

 

[dudleysdad]

Listen, I know a lot of people hate manziel and yes I am pulling for him but if he continues to act like a frat boy i won't be backing him. But you can't say after 1.5 games that he will or not be successful in the NFL.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Listen, I know a lot of people hate manziel and yes I am pulling for him but if he continues to act like a frat boy i won't be backing him. But you can't say after 1.5 games that he will or not be successful in the NFL.

I'm pretty much basing my opinion on watching him play. Thought dude was supposed to be fast?

 

[Lareux]

I get a good vibe from Haslam, it appears it's important to him to get it right. I never liked Lerner, Randy nor the old man. That family had more to do with the Browns leaving Cleveland than Modell.

You and your vibes again, instead of just looking at what he's actually done since he's been owner. If you were in a coma during the ownership change Tip, and you came to this past off season not knowing Haslam was the new owner, would you possibly have even guessed they had a new owner by the way things are still being run there?

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Drafting Johnny Foot-tall will be a blessing in disguise if it discourages Haslam from getting involved in the draft going forward.

 

[Lareux]

Drafting Johnny Foot-tall will be a blessing in disguise if it discourages Haslam from getting involved in the draft going forward.

So you're basically just holding out on him having an "ah-hah" moment then huh? Good grief. Good luck with that.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

You and your vibes again, instead of just looking at what he's actually done since he's been owner. If you were in a coma during the ownership change Tip, and you came to this past off season not knowing Haslam was the new owner, would you possibly have even guessed they had a new owner by the way things are still being run there?

My vibes are legendary. Before the internet, I predicted Bill Bilichick would head coach again (you have to consider his reputation in 1995) and the Twins would rue the release of David Ortiz.

 

[dudleysdad]

I'm pretty much basing my opinion on watching him play. Thought dude was supposed to be fast?

Is he going to be running fly routes??

H is definitely fast n quick enough to play NFL qb

 

[tipyerbartender1]

He's not a strong guy, not an accurate passer, not a fast guy, not a gym rat … what do I have to look forward to with this guy? Even his tmz moments go south.

 

[Lareux]

He's not a strong guy, not an accurate passer, not a fast guy, not a gym rat … what do I have to look forward to with this guy? Even his tmz moments go south.

You've got that move where he flashes the "money sign." That's something.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

You've got that move where he flashes the "money sign." That's something.

That's another thing. Guy doesn't even have to be in the game, and Browns opponents do the money sign after a play. Surely the other Browns don't resent that little elf for that.

 

[Fondybadger]

Shanny's kid and the Browns parting ways is kind of interesting. I bet this has at least a little to do with Johnny Foot-tall.

And the improper communications during games the NFL is investigating.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

And the improper communications during games the NFL is investigating.

My "vibe" is this won't amount to anything. Haslam didn't send Shanny a text, "Put JFF in"

 

[Lareux]

My "vibe" is this won't amount to anything. Haslam didn't send Shanny a text, "Put JFF in"

It amounted to enough already though, didn't it? They'll be hiring their 6th OC in the past 6 years. Who cares what the league does about it, they're just continuing to perpetuate losing.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

I'm not going to miss Kyle.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

A novel idea would be to let the head coach pick his staff.

 

[Lareux]

I'm not going to miss Kyle.

I get that, and I'm not saying he was necessarily the right man, but now they're going to, for the 6th time in 6 seasons basically start all over again on offense. It hasn't worked yet, why will it be different this time? And it'll only be a year or two before Pettine is gone and a whole new staff comes in. Your bubble must be pretty cozy Tip, because you seem determined to stay in it.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

I'm not too worried about the OC. One a year is a little alarming, I'll give you that. Give me a quarterback. It all gets easy after that piece.

 

[Lareux]

I'm not too worried about the OC. One a year is a little alarming, I'll give you that. Give me a quarterback. It all gets easy after that piece.

One year? It's been an average of one year since 2008.

Youre right about the QB too, but again they literally just drafted one they traded back into the first round to pick...under the advice of the owner who you're waiting to be hit in the head with a brick, altering his brain chemistry to allow him to actually understand how to be an NFL owner.

 

[Lareux]

Want me to send you a brick in the mail?

 

[Lareux]

You're hoping for a situation similar to what happened to that kid in Rookie of the Year where he suddenly had the ability to be an MLB pitcher.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

I'm less than half kidding when I say … the Browns should draft seven quarterbacks. And sign seven more undrafted ones. Let's find the guy.

 

[KJ]

Tough to do when even the Peyton Mannings of the world needed over a full season

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Do you guys trust my instincts? I haven't seen a Cleveland QB in 20 years, not a good one.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Hoosiers is on HDTV. About to run the picket fence at 'em.

 

[Lareux]

Do you guys trust my instincts? I haven't seen a Cleveland QB in 20 years, not a good one.

No, I don't trust your instincts at all, certainly not in this Browns situation.

But the QB idea is something that one of the sports talk guys around here (Mike Schopp) has been saying for a few years, and I agree completely. Not drafting 7 of them, but he always mentions that the Bills should take 1 or 2 (then sign a college FA or two) every single year....your odds of finding "the" guy for your team seems to be slim enough, why not increase the odds and keep taking QBs?

 

[Lareux]

Tough to do when even the Peyton Mannings of the world needed over a full season

Agree with this so much, and have always thought that the new 'style' of NFL teams expecting QBs to come in and start, and be successful starting, in their rookie season is preposterous. A decade ago, it would have been looked at as foolish, yet now it seems to be what teams want. Sure, there is the occasional guy like Andrew Luck (and Peyton though he wasn't successful his first year), but if you look at the guys who are at the top of the QB chain, almost all of them sat for a year or more. Rodgers and Brady are obviously at the top of that list. Like you said too KJ, there are some guys who started as rookies and have lasted as starters, but it wasn't pretty in their first year.

The other thing I don't get that more and more teams seem to do (or maybe it's now to the "have done" stage) is signing a backup QB from another team who came in for a few games (or maybe even one) because of injury and played well, to these huge money deals. You're basically anointing the guy as your starter based on a ridiculously small sample size...not to mention that guy was with his former team all season, had a feel for the offense, etc, when he played in those few games..which makes it easier for him to look good and look like he's a real NFL starter.

 

[Fondybadger]

No, I don't trust your instincts at all, certainly not in this Browns situation.

But the QB idea is something that one of the sports talk guys around here (Mike Schopp) has been saying for a few years, and I agree completely. Not drafting 7 of them, but he always mentions that the Bills should take 1 or 2 (then sign a college FA or two) every single year....your odds of finding "the" guy for your team seems to be slim enough, why not increase the odds and keep taking QBs?

Ron Wolf use to draft one or pick up a free agent just about every year for GB. Worked out pretty well even when he already had Brett Favre in place... Aaron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Kurt Warner, Doug Pederson, Ty Detmer, Aaron Rodgers, etc

 

[tipyerbartender1]

The coach-QB thing seems to transcend eras in the NFL. Paul Brown and Otto Graham. Lombardi and Starr. Landry and Staubach. Noll and Bradshaw. Walsh and Montana. Johnson and Aikman. Holmgren and Favre. Shanny and Elway. BB and Brady. Currently McCarthy and Rodgers, Harbaugh and Flacco, maybe Carroll and Wilson … probably forgetting half a dozen … this tandem is a must for sustained success.

 

[Lareux]

Ron Wolf use to draft one or pick up a free agent just about every year for GB. Worked out pretty well even when he already had Brett Favre in place... Aaron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Kurt Warner, Doug Pederson, Ty Detmer, Aaron Rodgers, etc

Which makes it even more mind-boggling that more teams havent yet employed this strategy. Yeah, why would any other team want to model what has been, for most of the NFL's history THE team with the most success and history of winning? The idiocy of most of the NFL front offices is simply dumbfounding.

 

[Lareux]

The coach-QB thing seems to transcend eras in the NFL. Paul Brown and Otto Graham. Lombardi and Starr. Landry and Staubach. Noll and Bradshaw. Walsh and Montana. Johnson and Aikman. Holmgren and Favre. Shanny and Elway. BB and Brady. Currently McCarthy and Rodgers, Harbaugh and Flacco, maybe Carroll and Wilson … probably forgetting half a dozen … this tandem is a must for sustained success.

Well yes because when teams win over a long period they don't fire coaches often, nor do they go looking for QBs every few years or so. Makes sense to not keep changing both of them year after year since this is the case. We have a few test cases, again it's Buffalo, Cleveland, and Oakland who have proven that perpetual change doesn't work....yet all 3 of those franchises continues to do it. It's like Groundhog Day, yet in this case the guy can stop the repeating from happening but chooses not to. Bill Murray didn't have a chance to stop it....these extremely wealthy idiots do.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

I can't blame the Browns for shedding pieces of the tandem that will never be pieces of any tandem, anywhere. I'll run naked for a year if Pat Shurmur, Chud, Romeo, Manziel, Colt McCoy, Weeden, or any predecessors or combination win a Super Bowl. My current stance is yes on Pettinne, but get a quarterback.

 

[Lareux]

I can't blame the Browns for shedding pieces of the tandem that will never be pieces of any tandem, anywhere. I'll run naked for a year if Pat Shurmur, Chud, Romeo, Manziel, Colt McCoy, Weeden, or any predecessors or combination win a Super Bowl. My current stance is yes on Pettinne, but get a quarterback.

You still can't see the forest for the trees, can you Tip?

 

[hugh613]

Well yes because when teams win over a long period they don't fire coaches often, nor do they go looking for QBs every few years or so. Makes sense to not keep changing both of them year after year since this is the case. We have a few test cases, again it's Buffalo, Cleveland, and Oakland who have proven that perpetual change doesn't work....yet all 3 of those franchises continues to do it. It's like Groundhog Day, yet in this case the guy can stop the repeating from happening but chooses not to. Bill Murray didn't have a chance to stop it....these extremely wealthy idiots do.

True, but not every organization is fortunate enough to be able to land a Rodgers, or Brady, or Luck, etc...

Look at your Bills: sticking with Losman, Edwards or Manuel long term wouldn't have made much of a difference...

For the number of WR's and RB's drafted each year that manage to make a difference in the NFl, it's actually quite shocking how few QB's manage to succeed. Maybe it's time to rethink the way QB's are evaluated...

 

[Lareux]

True, but not every organization is fortunate enough to be able to land a Rodgers, or Brady, or Luck, etc...

Look at your Bills: sticking with Losman, Edwards or Manuel long term wouldn't have made much of a difference...

For the number of WR's and RB's drafted each year that manage to make a difference in the NFl, it's actually quite shocking how few QB's manage to succeed. Maybe it's time to rethink the way QB's are evaluated...

Right, that's how the conversation about that started. It was mentioned that a team should draft at least 1 or 2 QBs every year until they find "the" guy.

I said the same thing a few posts earlier about everyone not being lucky enough to get Luck or Manning. Brady and Rodgers don't count for this because they sat before they played AND they were passed over by almost every team (and every team in Brady's case), so pretty much any team could have been "fortunate" with either of those guys.

 

[hugh613]

Right, that's how the conversation about that started. It was mentioned that a team should draft at least 1 or 2 QBs every year until they find "the" guy.

I said the same thing a few posts earlier about everyone not being lucky enough to get Luck or Manning. Brady and Rodgers don't count for this because they sat before they played...which is what I think more teams should get back to as opposed to throwing a rookie to the wolves.

I didn't read that far back... : )

Too bad there isn't a developmental league a la NFL Europe anymore. What's a kid going to learn in scrimmage or standing on a sideline for 2 or 3 years? Gameplay's the only way to learn how to read defenses in real time and go through the motions of proper decision making.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Right, that's how the conversation about that started. It was mentioned that a team should draft at least 1 or 2 QBs every year until they find "the" guy.

I said the same thing a few posts earlier about everyone not being lucky enough to get Luck or Manning. Brady and Rodgers don't count for this because they sat before they played AND they were passed over by almost every team (and every team in Brady's case), so pretty much any team could have been "fortunate" with either of those guys.

I'm OK with a guy sitting, not sitting, depends on the situation and the guy. I'm pretty certain Manziel sucks though.

 

[Lareux]

True, but not every organization is fortunate enough to be able to land a Rodgers, or Brady, or Luck, etc...

Look at your Bills: sticking with Losman, Edwards or Manuel long term wouldn't have made much of a difference...

For the number of WR's and RB's drafted each year that manage to make a difference in the NFl, it's actually quite shocking how few QB's manage to succeed. Maybe it's time to rethink the way QB's are evaluated...

And you're right, sticking with those guys wouldn't have made much of a difference....my point is that the people who were in charge of drafting them clearly didn't know what they were doing...yet kept their jobs and were able to draft more than one of those QBs...while the coaches were fired left and right. It's literally something like "bizzaro logic."

 

[Lareux]

I'm OK with a guy sitting, not sitting, depends on the situation and the guy. I'm pretty certain Manziel sucks though.

Outside of Luck and Peyton Manning, who in the past 20 years has been able to start right away and become a franchise QB w/i the next year or 2? I'm sure there are a couple more I'm not remembering, but you can probably count them all on one hand. They should sit and learn how to play QB in the NFL...it's clearly a different animal.

 

[hugh613]

I'm OK with a guy sitting, not sitting, depends on the situation and the guy. I'm pretty certain Manziel sucks though.

Off the top of my head, the only guys I remember sitting for a few years then turning into studs are McNair and Rodgers. Probably wouldn't have made much of a difference in either case.

 

[Lareux]

I didn't read that far back... : )

:shake:

I edited my post too, but Brady and Rodgers don't really count in this exercise since the Packers and Patriots were only fortunate because every other team in the league passed on those guys (not the whole league for Rodgers)...and in Brady's case each team passed on him 5 or 6 times. That's not being fortunate, that's being able to evaluate talent properly.