Barry Bonds

[tipyerbartender1]

Bonds' best years were on the juice. Before his hat size grew, he was never in the conversation of greatest player of all time. Not even top 10 hitters, not even top 10 outfielders. You guys know they've been playing this game for over 100 years, right?

 

[Lareux]

Bonds' best years were on the juice. Before his hat size grew, he was never in the conversation of greatest player of all time. Not even top 10 hitters, not even top 10 outfielders. You guys know they've been playing this game for over 100 years, right?

Tip, you can't be serious with this. His best HR years were on the juice, but he went 40/40 before the roids and was a 3 (maybe 4) time MVP before the roids as well. He even got to 400 HRs and 400 SBs before the juice, the first MLBer to ever do that.

This is just an ignorant post. You can talk all you want about the steroids, but Bonds was easily the best player of the generation before he used steroids.

 

[Lareux]

Before 2000, Bonds won the MVP 3 times. He was also the runner up once, and was 4th, 5th, and 5th....all of this was in a span of 8 years. If he wasn't the best player in baseball for that decade 1990-2000...who was?

Here are his HR totals before 2000..16,25,24,19,33,25,34,46,37,33,42,40,37,34.

His SB totals...36,32,17,32,52,43,39,29,29,31,40,37,28,15.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

He's definitely in the conversation for best player of his generation. Bit of a choker. His best sabermetric years that everyone jizzed themselves about were late in his career. Baseball was my life in the 90's. I never once thought Bonds was the greatest player of all time.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Remember when he couldn't throw out the speedy Sid Bream?

 

[Lareux]

He's definitely in the conversation for best player of his generation. Bit of a choker. His best sabermetric years that everyone jizzed themselves about were late in his career. Baseball was my life in the 90's. I never once thought Bonds was the greatest player of all time.

I've never said he was the best of all time, I put him in the Top 5 (or even Top 10 would suffice). He was easily the best of his generation though, who else is even in the conversation? Griffey Jr would be the only other person who could be invited.

Agree about the sabermetric years, but those are based on OBP and Slugging...which is directly related to HRs and BBs, which he clearly had inflated totals of those 2 stats in his PED years. He was a better baseball player, overall, before the steroids. He became a HR hitting machine who no one wanted to pitch to at all when he started juicing.

 

[Lareux]

Remember when he couldn't throw out the speedy Sid Bream?

Ugh. One play to talk about a career? Don't be *that* guy Tip. It makes the rest of your arguments hold less merit, and I enjoy talking about this with you.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Ugh. One play to talk about a career? Don't be *that* guy Tip. It makes the rest of your arguments hold less merit, and I enjoy talking about this with you.

He didn't hit in that series either. 7 games, .148, no ribbies, and one awful throw at the end.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

If you're asking me whether his stats before his presumed steroid use began merit HOF status, I say yes. But I think his presumed … fuck presumed, the 99.9% chance he juiced and juiced mightily keeps him out. And I don't begrudge the voters for that stance.

 

[Lareux]

He didn't hit in that series either. 7 games, .148, no ribbies, and one awful throw at the end.

Yep, he was bad that series and a few others in the post season. Doesn't mean much when we're talking about how good of a player he was in the long run...or shouldn't.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Bonds isn't even the best hitter or outfielder in the history of the Pirates or Giants.

 

[Lareux]

Since WAR seems to be a pretty good advanced stat, and you mentioned that he was a sabermetric stud after the roids...here is his WAR for his entire career, just for shits n giggles...

WAR Position Players† †s c a p y
1987 NL 5.8 (9th)
1988 NL 6.2 (7th)
1989 NL 8.0 (3rd)
1990 NL 9.7 (1st)
1991 NL 7.9 (1st)
1992 NL 9.0 (1st)
1993 NL 9.9 (1st)
1994 NL 6.2 (2nd)
1995 NL 7.5 (1st)
1996 NL 9.7 (1st)
1997 NL 8.2 (4th)
1998 NL 8.1 (1st)
2000 NL 7.7 (3rd)
2001 NL 11.9 (1st)
2002 NL 11.8 (1st)
2003 NL 9.2 (1st)
2004 NL 10.7 (1st)

 

[Lareux]

Since WAR seems to be a pretty good advanced stat, and you mentioned that he was a sabermetric stud after the roids...here is his WAR for his entire career, just for shits n giggles...

WAR Position Players† †s c a p y
1987 NL 5.8 (9th)
1988 NL 6.2 (7th)
1989 NL 8.0 (3rd)
1990 NL 9.7 (1st)
1991 NL 7.9 (1st)
1992 NL 9.0 (1st)
1993 NL 9.9 (1st)
1994 NL 6.2 (2nd)
1995 NL 7.5 (1st)
1996 NL 9.7 (1st)
1997 NL 8.2 (4th)
1998 NL 8.1 (1st)
2000 NL 7.7 (3rd)
2001 NL 11.9 (1st)
2002 NL 11.8 (1st)
2003 NL 9.2 (1st)
2004 NL 10.7 (1st)

 

[Lareux]

So, between 1990 and 2004, he was the best player in baseball 11 times based on WAR. And he was 2nd, 3rd, and 4th the other 3 years.

 

[Lareux]

Bonds isn't even the best hitter or outfielder in the history of the Pirates or Giants.

Pirates, yes he was. Giants, no but that's because Willie Mays played for them and he may be the best player of all time. I don't disagree with that at all, and it doesn't discredit Bonds in any way to say that. Fuck, Bonds would agree with that point Tip.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Clemente > Bonds

 

[Lareux]

Top 5 WAR of all time...

[TABLE="class: float_left stats_table nav_table"]
<thead>[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Rank[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Player (yrs, age)[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]WAR Position Players[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Bats[/TH]
[/TR]
</thead><tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1.[/TD]
[TD]Babe Ruth+ (22)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]163.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]L[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2.[/TD]
[TD]Barry Bonds (22)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]162.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]L[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD]Willie Mays+ (22)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]156.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4.[/TD]
[TD]Ty Cobb+ (24)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]151.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]L[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5.[/TD]
[TD]Hank Aaron+ (23)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]142.4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[Lareux]

Clemente > Bonds

Not based on stats he's not. You may like him more, and many people may agree with you...that doesn't mean it's true.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

He was the greatest defensive RF of all time, it's half the game, so it gives him quite a head start.

 

[Lareux]

He was the greatest defensive RF of all time, it's half the game, so it gives him quite a head start.

Bonds was a 5 tool player Tip, let's not act as if he couldn't play defense. I like Clemente Tip, but he's not even in this conversation of the greatest of all time. Again, based on stats, advanced stats, etc....not based on nostalgia and likability.

 

[JumpOnBoard]

I don't think Jr juiced. Us Cincy fans were definetely robbed of the good jr sans the one 40/122 year, but he just didn't stay in shape honestly. His ass got bigger and bigger and IMO that was the cause of the obliques and hammies etc...Jr never liked working out and his teammates/him always made that clear...he got back home around family and I think even got worse as his time because a bigger issue...

 

[tipyerbartender1]

Bonds was a 5 tool player Tip, let's not act as if he couldn't play defense. I like Clemente Tip, but he's not even in this conversation of the greatest of all time. Again, based on stats, advanced stats, etc....not based on nostalgia and likability.

Clemente was before my time, but my spider sense tells me he was twice the defensive outfielder in comparison to Bonds. To this day, when a RF throws out a guy at third, Roberto Clemente is referenced. And he could hit. And he wasn't a cancer.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

I don't think Jr juiced. Us Cincy fans were definetely robbed of the good jr sans the one 40/122 year, but he just didn't stay in shape honestly. His ass got bigger and bigger and IMO that was the cause of the obliques and hammies etc...Jr never liked working out and his teammates/him always made that clear...he got back home around family and I think even got worse as his time because a bigger issue...

I'll never forget, it was at old Riverfront I think, I was in the upper deck and watching that guy cover ground was amazing. Not the speed, it was later in his career as you said, but just the space the guy covered in his regular gait to get under a ball.

 

[orangemonk]

I would argue heavily that defense, while important, is not half of the game. not even close. Anyone can catch a little pop fly. Sure some guys can cover some more ground, or have a better arm, but how often do those come into play in a game? not as often as guys come up to bat.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

I would argue heavily that defense, while important, is not half of the game. not even close. Anyone can catch a little pop fly. Sure some guys can cover some more ground, or have a better arm, but how often do those come into play in a game? not as often as guys come up to bat.

You're probably right, in the outfield anyway. I'd rather have pitchers and sluggers. I'm still ranking Clemente over Bonds, just to be a dick.

 

[Lareux]

You're probably right, in the outfield anyway. I'd rather have pitchers and sluggers. I'm still ranking Clemente over Bonds, just to be a dick.

:shake:

 

[Coverdatspred]

Just for the record I'd like to clear something up. I wasn't at all saying that baseball was about to die off completely if not for the home run race. It would have survived in the long run but it would not have thrived for a very long time and we might not have the game we all love today if not for the Mac Sosa run that summer. It was every day front page news. It led off every sports report every night. It brought fans back to the game that they were very bitter towards. When I say they saved baseball I don't mean they saved it from extinction but rather they saved it from becoming backpage news.

 

[tipyerbartender1]

It added some excitement, you are right. Cleveland was kind of organically excited about baseball at the time because the Indians were winning for the first time in forever, but those guys were probably all roided up too. Tribe apologists swear Thome was just country-strong, and they cite the size of his father, and sister of all people. I don't know. Guy was kind of sinewy in 1994. I think Manny juiced later. Belle probably juiced. Lofton no way.

 

[The Capping Genius]

i love baseball, it's up there with CFB as my favorite sport, but the grumpy old men really suck a lot of fun out of the game with all this HoF stuff every year.

and I'll tell you one thing... I'll never take my kid to the HoF if the guy with the most hits, the guy with the most HR, and one of the top 5 best pitchers of all time aren't in there.

l


What a wild misconception of the top 5 hall of famers. This remark qualifies as one of the top five flamers!
Dude...they have all been there for 70 years - and none of the top five you may consider on PCP's will ever be there.
Here are 5 that none of the cheaters would ever be ranked with ... Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Walter Johnson, Ted Williams the two time triple crown winner.

 

[Lareux]

l


What a wild misconception of the top 5 hall of famers. This remark qualifies as one of the top five flamers!
Dude...they have all been there for 70 years - and none of the top five you may consider on PCP's will ever be there.
Here are 5 that none of the cheaters would ever be ranked with ... Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Walter Johnson, Ted Williams the two time triple crown winner.

Where did OM even give his top 5 HOFers? I think you misunderstood his comment, because your comment makes no sense in response to his.

Who has all been there for 70 years? And what do you mean by PCPs? The 5 guys you listed may not have the cheaters ever ranked with them, but you can't leave Mays and Aaron off of that list if that's supposed to be your top 5 of all time. I'm a Yanks fan myself, but having 3 Yanks on that top 5 is homerish, to say the least.

I guess I just don't really even know what you're trying to say with this post at all.

 

[Detox]

*

if they ever let Barry in you must let Pete in right ?

they should both be in. :shake:

 

[Detox]

This is a group of split opinions. One side is for cheating, one side is for no cheating.

For those who think the home run chase saved the game, could someone please tell the ping-pong association, that the ping-pong league could be saved if they started using PED's.
LOL

mlb wasn't doing anything. was bonds supposed to let brady anderson and louis gonzalez put up better numbers than him? they were forced to cheat. get with it.

i'd be shocked if griffey didnt at least use hgh to try and heal faster.

 

[Detox]

 

[Detox]

ping pong

 

[orangemonk]

Just for the record I'd like to clear something up. I wasn't at all saying that baseball was about to die off completely if not for the home run race. It would have survived in the long run but it would not have thrived for a very long time and we might not have the game we all love today if not for the Mac Sosa run that summer. It was every day front page news. It led off every sports report every night. It brought fans back to the game that they were very bitter towards. When I say they saved baseball I don't mean they saved it from extinction but rather they saved it from becoming backpage news.

I agree with this... I got the paper every day and the front page had McGwire, Sosa, Griffey and Gonzalez HR totals every day at the top. I think I would've really liked baseball anyway bc my dad raised me on it as #1, but it may not have been my fave sport

 

[detroit187]

I don't think Jr juiced. Us Cincy fans were definetely robbed of the good jr sans the one 40/122 year, but he just didn't stay in shape honestly. His ass got bigger and bigger and IMO that was the cause of the obliques and hammies etc...Jr never liked working out and his teammates/him always made that clear...he got back home around family and I think even got worse as his time because a bigger issue...

Griff didnt juice and he would of been considered the greatest player ever if he just stayed healthy, one of the biggest disappointments of my young life he didnt. but you are right, once he went to cincy it was all downhill and sad to see. though i believe his body broke down so easily was because he wasnt on some shit like barry was to help him recover and build muscle. i think it got to a point where griff didnt care as much anymore and he was never a huge ego guy, would rather just be left alone. which is why i loved the guy so much.

 

[orangemonk]

I'm a Tigers fan but I had a Mariners comforter for my bed bc I liked Griffey so much.