Carolina Guy
Pretty much a regular
Yea, but you have to qualify WHY he is the goat. he was a major fucking asshole to anybody and everybody.
Yea, but you have to qualify WHY he is the goat. he was a major fucking asshole to anybody and everybody.
T
tipyerbartender1
Guest
Baseball wasn't going anywhere. It never needed to be saved.
Carolina Guy
Pretty much a regular
Not a good enough answer. Why? Because there is a guy named Ken Griffey Jr who played during the same era. He was right there with all the same talent. He didn't use.
Carolina Guy
Pretty much a regular
Make another Hall for the steroid era then. It's that simple.
T
tipyerbartender1
Guest
Some voters probably agree with you, and vote for Bonds. Some probably think he juiced, and don't vote for him. Simple as that. Your dirt on Griffey isn't too damning.
Coverdatspred
Curious About George Costanza‘s Modeling Career
thats Highly debatable tip.
Coverdatspred
Curious About George Costanza‘s Modeling Career
Shirley you can't be serious.
Coverdatspred
Curious About George Costanza‘s Modeling Career
At least that's what you believe. Tons of those in doubt never had any positive tests.
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Lareux
Guest
So, because greenies were accepted, they are okay? And actually PEDs were accepted as most of the league was doing them, and MLB itself was looking the other way when they clearly knew what was going on.
L
Lareux
Guest
But some guys could think anyone juiced and not vote for them...that's not right.
L
Lareux
Guest
You don't know Griffey didn't use. I'm not sure why that's not a good enough answer though...it is THE answer.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Strikes hurt, but the record home run chase didn't save the game. Shit, hockey's canceled seasons, airs on the shopping network, takes off for the Olympics, and that's still around. I think baseball would have survived without steroids.
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Lareux
Guest
What does him being an asshole have to do with anything? His stats would qualify him as being the GOAT (or close to it).
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Lareux
Guest
Yes it did Tip. I wasn't even sure that was in question.
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Lareux
Guest
Just make a separate wing for them, that would suffice. Or just put something on their plaque that signifies they were under suspicion of using PEDs (or did use).
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Oh for Christ's sake. Performance-enhancing in the sense they got a hungover guy in his third city in 7 days on the field. A slappy on amphetamines was just an awake slappy.
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Lareux
Guest
And a PED can possibly make you hit the ball 10-15 ft further. It's not helping them hit the ball Tip. PEDs were also used a ton by pitchers to recover quicker, just like greenies were used.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
You guys are insane. You think MLB was about to go away, but Mac and Sammy saved the game.
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Lareux
Guest
Yes. Google it and I'm sure you'll find numerous articles by highly respected baseball writers (and probably some MLB execs and players) that will tell you exactly that.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
In this case, I don't have to google it. Anyone who thinks Major League Baseball was about to cease to exist in the late '90's is a fucking idiot. It was making money hand over fist.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Despite the unspoken scourge of greenies, my bigger beef is with the meatheads with the artificial muscles.
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Lareux
Guest
Except again, tons of pitchers used PEDs...and not to beef up, but to recover. You don't like facts Tip and base most of your stuff on opinion.
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Lareux
Guest
Of course not, don't want those facts getting in the way of your great opinion. You are seriously in the tiny, tiny, tiny minority with this opinion. Baseball was making money hand over fist between 1995 and 1998? Prove it.
T
tipyerbartender1
Guest
Fuck, prove it wasn't. Name me one MLB team that didn't turn a profit in any year from 1995-1998.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Luckily, I don't have a vote. I wouldn't vote for a pitcher caught red-handed either, so Clemens would not be on my ballot.
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Lareux
Guest
Turning a profit means nothing in this convo. We would have to compare to the profits each team made before the strike, and then after to see if the profits were declining (which they were). You can't keep moving the net when we're talking about something Tip.
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Lareux
Guest
But only for those caught red handed? What about those you think may have used? How do you determine that?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
No. When professional teams or leagues don't make money, they fold. In the case of MLB, profit was never in doubt.
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Lareux
Guest
Ahhh, some facts from the book Game of Shadows....
Baseball attendance was down 28% in 1995 (nearly 20 million) from 1993. It crept back the following seasons, but it was still down 10% in 1997.
By some estimates, the lockout cost the owners $500 million in revenues in 1994 and $800 million more in 1995. More worrisome still were the signs that interest in the game might have permanently ebbed.
Baseball attendance was down 28% in 1995 (nearly 20 million) from 1993. It crept back the following seasons, but it was still down 10% in 1997.
By some estimates, the lockout cost the owners $500 million in revenues in 1994 and $800 million more in 1995. More worrisome still were the signs that interest in the game might have permanently ebbed.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
That's up to the Hall of Fame voters. I think Bonds and Clemens used, and it seems a popular notion. If one of your greenie guys is on the fence, campaign against him, knock yourself out.
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Lareux
Guest
Paul Molitor, in or out for you?
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
NFL attendance is way down now, how they doin'?
Were we talking about how the home run chase ignited interest or "saved the game", because I thought some sensational alarmists in here were suggesting MLB would not be here today were it not for Sammy and Mac, and Bonds?
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Lareux
Guest
The book Game of Shadows (if I could copy and paste, I would) also outlines pretty much the exact reason that Bonds, who went 40/40 in 1996, turned to steroids...and it's the exact reason myself and CDS have said in this thread. Take a look for yourself CG.
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Lareux
Guest
The NFL may have slipped in attendance, but viewership on TV is waaaaay up. People weren't watching MLB on TV instead of going to the games like they do with the NFL. It's not the same thing, and I think you're smart enough to know that.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
MLB teams, then, didn't make as much money on network MLB TV contracts. Even today, the gravy's in the local broadcast revenue. So individual MLB teams don't care much about TV ratings on Sunday night, or even the World Series for that matter. MLB teams sell their own TV and radio rights, that's why the Yankees are the Yankees and the Indians are the Indians. Granted, they're all doing better now than they were in 1995, but they weren't in any danger of going out of business in 1995-1998. How do you think they endured a strike? It was just the once-in-a-while run at the union. Owners wouldn't have risked that golden goose on an all-in bet, even the jealous and disgruntled owners.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
In
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Lareux
Guest
Admitted cocaine user during his playing days.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Agreed. Not a deal breaker.
T
The Capping Genius
Guest
This is a group of split opinions. One side is for cheating, one side is for no cheating.
For those who think the home run chase saved the game, could someone please tell the ping-pong association, that the ping-pong league could be saved if they started using PED's.
LOL
For those who think the home run chase saved the game, could someone please tell the ping-pong association, that the ping-pong league could be saved if they started using PED's.
LOL
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Lareux
Guest
Ping pong players need to hit the ping pong ball a few feet further? It's not going to help them play ping pong, just like it didn't help MLB players play baseball.
And some of those for "no cheating" are actually okay for some cheating, just whatever they deem is okay to cheat with. There was no testing policy in place back when this all went down, so does anyone really think MLB didn't know? They didn't even care to find out really.
"If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying."
Carolina Guy
Pretty much a regular
I disagree. Sosa and McGwire put up similar numbers and before Bonds did it and they don't garner near the shit Bonds does. Why? Bc those guys weren't assholes. Bonds and Clemens catch all the shit bc they were good enough to be elite without all the drugs. Bonds catches more heat bc he was f'ing prick. All they had to do was wait it out. It's really a shame when "great" isn't good enough. F em all, IMO.
Carolina Guy
Pretty much a regular
The home run chase b/tn McGwire and Sosa "saved" baseball. this is still Webster's definition of "hyperbole"
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
What baseball enthusiasts, historians, chroniclers, and fans think matters. Just because you don't draw a line between coffee and steroids doesn't mean I can't.
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
I don't know why we can't put them in the hall and put it on or next to their plaque that they were known steroid users?
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
i love baseball, it's up there with CFB as my favorite sport, but the grumpy old men really suck a lot of fun out of the game with all this HoF stuff every year.
and I'll tell you one thing... I'll never take my kid to the HoF if the guy with the most hits, the guy with the most HR, and one of the top 5 best pitchers of all time aren't in there.
and I'll tell you one thing... I'll never take my kid to the HoF if the guy with the most hits, the guy with the most HR, and one of the top 5 best pitchers of all time aren't in there.
Carolina Guy
Pretty much a regular
This is where I agree (as stated earlier), but I say we build a whole nother Hall for them. Stick it to them since they stuck it to everyone else on the premise they were telling everyone they were as clean as a whistle.
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
I would be fine with this; not a different building or location, but a different wing or floor within the main hall.
T
tipyerbartender1
Guest
I'm not grumpy, I don't even think I'm THAT old. My HOF doesn't include guys who tarnished the game more than they elevated it. The history of baseball wouldn't be very interesting if we couldn't tell it without mentioning players not in the HOF. I can tell my kids about Bonds and Clemens without a visit to the HOF. (My kids don't care much anyway.) I'll say these guys were great, and unfortunately drugged it up to maintain their level of play when they got old. Cost 'em their legacies.
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Lareux
Guest
This is what you said though...
You said he couldn't be the GOAT because he was an asshole. You didn't say he catches more flack because he was an asshole. I agree with you on that point, but that's not what I replied to. I replied to you saying he couldn't be the GOAT because he was an asshole. Him being an asshole has nothing to do with his performance on the field, which is what we should be basing the GOAT on.
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Lareux
Guest
Yep, I said the same thing. I'd have no problem with that at all...BUT anyone from that era probably has to go in there because no one knows for sure who used and who didn't. Or do we move guys after the fact if it becomes known years from now they did use? Either way, there's no reason some of these guys shouldn't be in the HOF in some capacity (separate wing or whatever).
