2013 season discussion

Santacapper

Pretty much a regular
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/1/9/3854426/luongo-and-the-new-cbas-luongo-rule

he effects of the new CBA are little understood, but one of the most confusing new inclusions is the design of the penalties for long-term, "cap circumvention" contracts - i.e. the uberlong terms with trailing seasons of low cash value designed to lower the average cap hit of the deal.

According to most reports, the new penalty states that the accrued "sheltered salary" (my phrasing) of a player's tenure with a team will be averaged out as a penalty if that player retires early, where "sheltered salary" is the difference between the salary dollars paid and the cap hit incurred.
Aside -- why does this penalty make sense?
The reason is because salaries are supposed to be tied to revenue via the cap. If the total amount of salaries in a season is $1B and the total cap hit is $1B then everything is ok. But with variable amounts, the salary in year 1 might be $1.2B while the cap is $1B, and then in year 2 the salary corrects by being $0.8B with a cap of $1B.
If the players with front-loaded deals all retire after year 1, then there is nothing preventing new contracts from being signed in year 2 that will hit the $1B mark; the analogous correction would be a $0.2B cap penalty which would prevent this and re-establish $0.8B as the salary max in year 2.
This logic is also why it is only fair for any negative penalties to actually count as cap bonuses. Reversing the values for Y1 and Y2 (i.e. 0.8B and 1.2B) would mean that the players were underpaid in year 1, so if all those players retire then they should be allowed to exceed the 1B cap in year 2 by 0.2B to make up for this loss.
/Aside

But let's see what would happen if Luongo was traded to Toronto.
First, his current salary structure (and terrible Gillis signing) with Vancouver:

via pic.twitter.com/wTAEd9cA
[[All pictures are larger via link; they're getting shrunk for some reason]]

Suffice it to say that once Luongo plays into the 2015-16 season, the Canucks will have a major headache when he retires early.
If Luongo is traded to Toronto before this current season, the picture becomes as such:

via pic.twitter.com/CCgI5WdC
What is most interesting to note here is the bolded column at right ("Original Van Penalty"); for all but the penultimate year, Vancouver's early-retirement penalty is MORE if they keep him. I repeat: keeping Luongo at this moment (pre-2012/13 season) will end up being WORSE for Vancouver than trading him away.
So we have the picture of what life would be like with Luongo and his Methuselah contract. It turns out that the damage from any retirement is not all that bad for Toronto, as the pain is mostly incurred by Vancouver since they had him during his $10m-salary season.
Of note is the drastic change in penalties if the player retires with 1 year left to go: the manageable amounts for Vancouver balloon into the full $6.05m cap penalty for the '21-'22 season, while Toronto enjoys a $1.7m cap "bonus" in that same season (as explained in the above aside).
So as long as we can get quality playtime out of Luongo, the downside really isn't there from a cap-damage perspective... for us at least. Vancouver is screwed regardless. And assuming league revenues resume growing and the cap goes up, the relative % of Luongo's salary to the team cap will shrink every year (i.e. inflationary yadda yadda).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But there's more. What happens if we need to trade Luongo? What happens then?
I assumed that Luongo would be around for at least 3 years, so I only started looking at trade scenarios after the 2014-15 season
Traded post-2015:

via pic.twitter.com/s44Uh8GU
Traded post-2016:

via pic.twitter.com/7AoBqUKX
Traded post-2017:

via pic.twitter.com/4MO0KDTj
Traded post-2018:

via pic.twitter.com/Uvz3DbHn
Traded post-2019:

via pic.twitter.com/1wHc7LtC
Traded post-2020:

via pic.twitter.com/EBxRnYnd
So there is a lot of data just sitting there, showing a lot of things changing, but let's organize it a bit.
First in a table, then in a chart:


via pic.twitter.com/8C3zL6HA
The above table shows the various average annual cap penalties that would be incurred by Toronto if they trade Luongo away at any of the prescribed years.
The VANCOUVER row is to reference what their impact is upon Luongo's retirement (regardless of what other city he's in).
The TORONTO row is to reference what the impact of Luongo's retirement is to Toronto should they keep him and not trade him.
And the chart:

via pic.twitter.com/S6c3AoyA
So this chart shows the above tables data in comparative terms. The lines gradient from 2015 trade scenario (Red) to the 2020 trade scenario (Navy Blue). Vancouver's impact is in Black, and Toronto keeping Luongo is in Pink.
What we see here finally is that it makes almost zero sense to ever trade Luongo once we have him, because the cap penalty continues to increase the longer he keeps playing. Unless they somehow knew with 100% crystal ball certainty that he would retire in 2018 particularly, there is no other reason to trade him and expose yourself to ever-increasing penalties. In fact, if Toronto trades Luongo at any point after the 2017-18 season, our cap penalties would be greater than those of Vancouver!
The only place where it makes sense, and is a benefit, is if they trade him after the 2020 season.
If he plays 1 more season then retires, his new team would enjoy a cap bonus of $4.3m, and Toronto's penalty would be a manageable $2.6m for a single season (Vancouver if you recall get's dinged for $6m if he retires with 1 year left).
If Luongo is still playing for Toronto at that point [and doesn't have any more room in his Stanley Cup case] then it would actually be a valuable asset to have. It would be in NBA-style territory, but at the cost of $2.6m to self, Toronto would have $4.3m in cap bonus space to trade away. I'm sure that would fetch something valuable from a contending team.
Of course, if he plays the final 2 seasons, no one gets any penalties/bonuses.
GRAND CONCLUSION:
These contracts are a massive headache, and in every scenario Vancouver gets screwed if/when Luongo retires early - whether he's with them or with another club. Good job Gillis, Holland, Bowman, et al.
 
LeBrun said it today after Gillis brought it up yesterday

but the contract is a plus not a negative only because you can't sign deals like that anymore
 
The decision has been made, now questions are arising as to whether it was within the rules.
On Sunday, the Montreal Canadiens sent underachieving centre Scott Gomez home with a view to buying out his contract this summer.
But was doing so consistent with the spirit of the just-signed collective agreement between the NHL and its player union?


The NHL Players’ Association has contacted the league on the matter and is considering its options. Presumably those include trying to negotiate a joint settlement with the NHL (the union is also reviewing a similar case including the New York Rangers’ Wade Redden).
Habs officials will claim they are merely seeking to avoid a situation where Gomez might get hurt playing in the minors – injured players can’t be bought out.
As it stands, Gomez will be paid roughly $3.3-million for not playing the 48-game NHL schedule, and will have the last year of his contract (which pays him $4.5-million) bought out this summer, as per the CBA’s compliance-buyout provision.
The team is expected to send the 33-year-old veteran to the AHL – on paper at least – in order to recoup $900,000 of Gomez’s $7.35-million salary-cap charge this year.
 
Dont think anything comes of it, just shows the PA should have gotten a buyout this window

Friedman said that if Redden was bought out he talked to teams who would have been interested
 
They definitely needed a buyout winow preseason but with such a short camp window I can see why they didn't fight it. Nothing will happen no doubt
 
Anyone been to practices or scrimmages? Went to the boston vs providence scrimmage for a period and a half tonight and was not impressed with the hockey. Play was choppy, slow developing and overall poor.
 
Anyone been to practices or scrimmages? Went to the boston vs providence scrimmage for a period and a half tonight and was not impressed with the hockey. Play was choppy, slow developing and overall poor.
I looked over the scores from when they came back in 95, and it was pretty much an even split as far as totals go - then again, the trap hadn't really come into vogue just yet, so that might be part of the explanation as well.

One team I'll be looking at early on will be the Oilers, because most of their kids like Eberle, Hall and Nugent Hopkins have been playing steady with OKC, so they should be ahead of the curve to start (on offense, at least).
 
The league has made it clear they want the hooking/holding/interference obstruction calls made since that crept back into the game. Should be interesting to see if PP/gm increase early and if totals do the same
 
book opened up who does and doesnt

they have ducks as yes at -125 and no at -105, no seems so easy
 
Leafs trade Lombardi to phx for a 4th rd 3rd if he resigns.... Leafs retain partial salary

Conceivably for a spot for Kadri who had a hat trick in blue white game
 
I like bizak and kessels chemistry but he is no first line centre but throw in a first pick like I've seen....no thanks

I love Kadri and am a big supporter he re
 
to me, the biggest thing I am looking at right now is Oilers overs

think the top line playing together is going to help them score, Schultz looks like he will put up points

PP should be legit and like Matteson said I think there is a crack down on obstruction this year, I think we see a lot of PP time in January

plus their defense/goaltending is bad

going to look at other teams with similar issues (good PP, bad defense/pk)

Toronto, Islanders, Philly all come to mind
 
ya if it's the Leafs I want Kadri as part

I think he is the exact type of guy that just needs new scenery and could be a great winger with a defensively responsible C like Kesler
 
Leafs put connolly on waivers today

Gee, there's a shock. One of the biggest wastes of talents in recent history. He was just lazy and unmotivated here in Buffalo, before the concussion issues too. But damn does he have some hands. He can do things with the puck most cannot.
 
For those interested, here's a list I found on the TSN website of guys who've been playing in Europe during the lockout (just a gauge of which teams might be a little more ready to go as the season starts). There's also a list of prospects who've been playing in the AHL but, with the exception of the Edmonton kids and Couturier and Schenn from Philadelphia, most of them aren't top six forwards or defencemen (I don't think anyways), so do with that list what you will.

Beleskey, Matt Anaheim Gagner, Sam Edmonton Briere, Daniel Philadelphia
Bonino, Nick Anaheim Hemsky, Ales Edmonton Bryzgalov, Ilya Philadelphia
Cogliano, Andrew Anaheim Petrell, Lennart Edmonton Fedotenko, Ruslan Philadelphia
Fasth, Viktor Anaheim Potter, Corey Edmonton Gervais, Bruno Philadelphia
Fowler, Cam Anaheim Smid, Ladislav Edmonton Giroux, Claude Philadelphia
Ryan, Bobby Anaheim Yakupov, Nail Edmonton Grossmann, Nicklas Philadelphia
Sbisa, Luca Anaheim

Read, Matt Philadelphia


Bergenheim, Sean Florida Sestito, Tom Philadelphia
Bergeron, Patrice Boston Goc, Marcel Florida Simmonds, Wayne Philadelphia
Chara, Zdeno Boston Kopecky, Tomas Florida Talbot, Maxime Philadelphia
Ference, Andrew Boston Kuba, Filip Florida Voracek, Jakub Philadelphia
Kelly, Chris Boston Santorelli, Mike Florida

Khudobin, Anton Boston Skille, Jack Florida Bissonnette, Paul Phoenix
Krejci, David Boston

Boedker, Mikkel Phoenix
Peverley, Rich Boston Bernier, Jonathan Los Angeles Hanzal, Martin Phoenix
Rask, Tuukka Boston Brown, Dustin Los Angeles Klesla, Rostislav Phoenix
Seguin, Tyler Boston Kopitar, Anze Los Angeles Korpikoski, Lauri Phoenix
Seidenberg, Dennis Boston Martinez, Alec Los Angeles Kostitsyn, Sergei Phoenix




Vrbata, Radim Phoenix
Ehrhoff, Christian Buffalo Backstrom, Niklas Minnesota

Ennis, Tyler Buffalo Koivu, Mikko Minnesota Engelland, Deryk Pittsburgh
Enroth, Jhonas Buffalo Spurgeon, Jared Minnesota Jeffrey, Dustin Pittsburgh
Myers, Tyler Buffalo

Malkin, Evgeni Pittsburgh
Sekera, Andrej Buffalo Desharnais, David Montreal Vokoun, Tomas Pittsburgh
Sulzer, Alexander Buffalo Diaz, Raphael Montreal



Eller, Lars Montreal Couture, Logan San Jose
Babchuk, Anton Calgary Emelin, Alexei Montreal Demers, Jason San Jose
Backlund, Mikael Calgary Kaberle, Tomas Montreal Galiardi, TJ San Jose
Cervenka, Roman Calgary Markov, Andrei Montreal Handzus, Michal San Jose
Hudler, Jiri Calgary Pacioretty, Max Montreal Murray, Douglas San Jose


Plekanec, Tomas Montreal Niemi, Antti San Jose
Jokinen, Jussi Carolina Weber, Yannick Montreal Pavelski, Joe San Jose
McBain, Jamie Carolina

Thornton, Joe San Jose
Nodl, Andreas Carolina Hornqvist, Patric Nashville Wingels, Tommy San Jose
Semin, Alexander Carolina Josi, Roman Nashville

Stewart, Anthony Carolina Klein, Kevin Nashville Berglund, Patrik St. Louis
Tlusty, Jiri Carolina Rinne, Pekka Nashville D'Agostini, Matt St. Louis


Smith, Craig Nashville Halak, Jaroslav St. Louis
Bickell, Bryan Chicago

Polak, Roman St. Louis
Frolik, Michael Chicago Kovalchuk, Ilya New Jersey Russell, Kris St. Louis
Hjalmarsson, Niklas Chicago Volchenkov, Anton New Jersey Sobotka, Vladimir St. Louis
Kane, Patrick Chicago Zidlicky, Marek New Jersey Steen, Alex St. Louis
Rozsival, Michal Chicago

Stewart, Chris St. Louis
Stalberg, Viktor Chicago Bailey, Josh NY Islanders Tarasenko, Vladimir St. Louis


DiPietro, Rick NY Islanders

Duchene, Matt Colorado Grabner, Michael NY Islanders Hall, Adam Tampa Bay
Landeskog, Gabriel Colorado Joensuu, Jesse NY Islanders Hedman, Victor Tampa Bay
Stastny, Paul Colorado MacDonald, Andrew NY Islanders Lindback, Anders Tampa Bay
Varlamov, Semyon Colorado Nielsen, Frans NY Islanders Mikkelson, Brendan Tampa Bay


Streit, Mark NY Islanders

Anisimov, Artem Columbus Tavares, John NY Islanders Grabovski, Mikhail Toronto
Bobrovsky, Sergei Columbus Visnovsky, Lubomir NY Islanders Gunnarsson, Carl Toronto
Brassard, Derick Columbus

Kulemin, Nikolai Toronto
Nikitin, Nikita Columbus Del Zotto, Michael NY Rangers Lupul, Joffrey Toronto
Prospal, Vaclav Columbus Hagelin, Carl NY Rangers MacArthur, Clarke Toronto
Tyutin, Fedor Columbus McDonagh, Ryan NY Rangers



Nash, Rick NY Rangers Hansen, Jannik Vancouver
Benn, Jamie Dallas Stepan, Derek NY Rangers Raymond, Mason Vancouver
Jagr, Jaromir Dallas

Weise, Dale Vancouver
Larsen, Philip Dallas Condra, Erik Ottawa

Robidas, Stephane Dallas Daugavins, Kaspars Ottawa Chimera, Jason Washington
Wandell, Tom Dallas Gonchar, Sergei Ottawa Johansson, Marcus Washington


Greening, Colin Ottawa Laich, Brooks Washington
Brunner, Damien Detroit Karlsson, Erik Ottawa Neuvirth, Michal Washington
Datsyuk, Pavel Detroit Michalek, Milan Ottawa Ovechkin, Alex Washington
Emmerton, Cory Detroit Regin, Peter Ottawa Wolski, Wojtek Washington
Ericsson, Jonathan Detroit Spezza, Jason Ottawa

Filppula, Valtteri Detroit Turris, Kyle Ottawa Antropov, Nik Winnipeg
Kindl, Jakub Detroit

Enstrom, Tobias Winnipeg
Miller, Drew Detroit

Pavelec, Ondrej Winnipeg
Mursak, Jan Detroit

Ponikarovsky, Alexei Winnipeg
Tatar, Tomas Detroit

Wheeler, Blake Winnipeg
Zetterberg, Henrik Detroit




<tbody>
[TD="class: xl63"] Player
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, width: 89"] NHL Team [/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, width: 145"] Player [/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, width: 89"] NHL Team [/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, width: 145"] Player [/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, width: 89"] NHL Team [/TD]

</tbody>
 
if i knew anything about hockey that list would be very useful, too bad i dont

I feel like there are going to be very good situational plays the first few games of the season based off players needing to get back into shape. good luck everyone


solely based off the chart, the flyers, bruins, canadiens and islanders are plays


but it looks like books have adjusted lines quite a bit based on which players played overseas
 
really dont think playing in Europe is going to matter

the Flyers/Bruins are going to win games because they are good teams not because they played 5th tier hockey for a few months
 
its not like even 04 when guys weren't like they were now

half the Canucks team was doing workouts at UBC almost daily since september, few other teams did similar things

Stamkos and others have been working with Gary Roberts since september

Crosby and a group of other guys under Brisson have been practicing since september
 
like i said i know zilch about hockey lol, i'll prob just tail someone and fade the percentages :hello:
 
really dont think playing in Europe is going to matter

the Flyers/Bruins are going to win games because they are good teams not because they played 5th tier hockey for a few months

It's probably going to matter a bit. Just read an article about the Bruins getting upstaged by Providence in their scrimmage the other night. The writer said the guys playing in Europe looked much better than the guys who hadn't, and the actual team looked even better because they've been playing at a high level (not the NHL I know) for months now.

There's a big difference between working out (regardless of how hard you think they may be going), and actual game speed. Now it may only take a week or so for everyone to look like they're all equal out there, but guys who have been playing in real games in real leagues will look better out of the gates.
 
Here's the article btw...

The NHL's marketing campaign to remind fans that hockey is back is, rather appropriately, "Hockey Is Back."
And that's true in the most technical sense possible.
Sticklers will say it never went away, and that's certainly true because I probably went to two or three dozen college games during the lockout. You could have also caught junior games, AHL games, ECHL games, World Juniors games, or even foreign league games. But for most NHL fans, "hockey" begins and ends with the NHL, and therefore, "Hockey Is Back."
But the thing is, no amount of apologizing from the League over the last few weeks, or discounted concessions and merchandise to get fans back in the buildings, is going to make up for loss of these first three and a half months of the season, and no one likely felt it more than the vast majority of NHL players.
Case in point: The Boston Bruins took on the Providence counterparts in a game for which the team distributed tickets for all 17,565 seats at TD Garden for free, and probably had about 13,000 people show up. It was a fun night, mainly because Providence won 7-5.
Goalscoring bonanza aside, just by looking at play for five minutes or so, you could certainly tell which team was in mid-season form, and which was made up largely of guys who hadn't played a competitive game with actual checking since last spring.
Boston certainly didn't have its legs under it, to say the very least, but let's just say you could very much tell which players on its roster took advantage of their opportunities overseas, and which definitely did not. Tyler Seguin, for example, was very obviously the best player on the ice, and had all the look of a kid who's about to improve upon his breakout sophomore season. That's thanks, one assumes, to his having dominated the Swiss league these last few months. Patrice Bergeron also looked good. So did Dennis Seidenberg, whose goal in the game was just gorgeous. Same for Rich Peverley. Same for Zdeno Chara. Same for Andrew Ference.
Not so much for Tuukka Rask, but he also had no help whatsoever in front of him, even as he allowed six goals on 24 shots or something like that. Or Milan Lucic, who skated around like he was dragging a truck behind him.
The Providence Bruins, led by well-known hockey greats like Max Sauve and Jamie Tardif, routinely carved up the Boston Bruins' defense. Hell, the second-best player on the ice was also a Providence Bruin up until a day or two before the scrimmage. Chris Bourque seems to have made the big club and looked excellent alongside Peverley and Chris Kelly (who played overseas himself), posting a goal and two assists. But I guess the question now is whether you can expect that kind of production out of a career minor leaguer when the season starts?
My guess, at least for the first two, three, four weeks of the season is, "Yes."
This was brutal hockey to watch from the best professional players on earth, and they were getting torched in transition by AHL guys.
The Providence Bruins, while very good hockey players in their own right, and were playing in what must have been a somewhat motivational situation, are also a decidedly mediocre club. Seventh in the AHL's Eastern Conference with 40 points in 35 games, they should have gotten creamed by arguably the second- or third-best team on paper in the NHL. And make no mistake, these guys weren't out there playing for jobs to start the season, because the big club's roster is pretty much set.
What all of this tells me is that when the puck drops tomorrow night, with the Bruins taking on the New York Rangers of all the super-elite teams on the planet, the hockey isn't going to be anything like aesthetically pleasing, and you can project that league-wide too.
What did the final number end up being? Something like 30 percent of the league played overseas during the lockout? A few more went down the AHL or ECHL, probably? That's a pretty huge portion of the league that hasn't played against anyone in a game with actual contact or trying that hard in eight months and if the Bruins' sloppy performance against their farm team is any indication, the rust isn't going to have come off between Tuesday and Saturday.
It should also be noted that these guys are still very obviously world-class players. Boston only scored two goals in the first two periods of the game, but then scored three in the space of about four minutes on a series of very good plays. The shots in particular were of extremely high quality, with the aforementioned Seidenberg wrister and one from Brad Marchand in the second period being particularly great. But even still, more passes went wide, ended up in guys' feet, or clattered into opposing sticks than anyone would have liked. The goalies let up goals they would have liked back. The defense kept losing guys in coverage.
That all gets ironed out over the course of a two-week training camp with some full-contact exhibitions thrown in for good measure, but when you've been in camp since Sunday after more than half a year off, you can't be expected to be completely good to go for an NHL season. It's not fair, but it's the way things have to be for the league to save some amount of face.
I guess we can maybe extrapolate from this, too, that teams with players who got a lot of time in competitive leagues overseas or here in North America might be in a better position to win games in the first few weeks of the season than those that have a bunch of guys who sat home. That will certainly play havoc with the standings to start out, not that the standings will need much help being insane this season anyway.
And none of this is to say anything about these guys' fitness levels, which should be okay considering they are professional athletes and all, but everyone in the hockey world has already been checking their watches to see when the next guy goes down with a groin injury (should be any minute now) over the season's first few weeks. There will be a lot of them, and that won't help the product any.
Hockey Is Back for sure, but it's probably going to be a lot uglier than you remembered for a while.
 
I just hope 5dimes is a little more forgiving with the team totals this season. I remember a lot of nights last season where they would juice the hell out of 2.5 instead of moving it to 3.
 
I've been thinking about this topic a bit since going to that scrimmage. It's an annual training camp event that the big club rarely shows up for. Add in providence has been playing as a team for 4.5 mo and I wasn't surprised with the outcome.

That being said Lucic, Marchand, Horton are 3 guys that stayed in Boston and skated regularly at BU and they were a few steps behind. Guys that didn't play in the ahl or European league games will be at a disadvantage, how much is the question.

Look for Boston's def and goaltending to be a weakness to start the yr. mcquaid is a shell of himself coming off blood clot surgery, and Dougie Hamilton is in the top 6. Neither were physical or prepared for the battles involved with playing defense.
 
That Edler deal is a great one considering some of the contracts given out to Dmen during the offseason. Don't agree that he's "elite", though, that term gets thrown around way too loosely these days
 
That Edler deal is a great one considering some of the contracts given out to Dmen during the offseason. Don't agree that he's "elite", though, that term gets thrown around way too loosely these days

Agree. Handfull of elite at each position. He doesn't fit the category
 
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