Week of October 25-27th Plays and Analysis Thread
- Thread starter B.A.R.
- Start date
whatisfootball
Well-Known Member
Looks like OSU is steady at -4 now.
aplous
Donkey Hater
Great time for a VT play.....
Solid revenge spot as BC beat them as a 3 pt dog in Boston last year, on Thurs. night, ,even though VT outgained them in the game.....2 years ago in Balcksburg Hokies smoked them 30-10ish.........Public dog in every sense, looks about 50-50 action coming in (huge for a dog)...line hopped to 3.5 from 3 it appears........Like that Tech is showing some sense of an offense......:cheers:
Solid revenge spot as BC beat them as a 3 pt dog in Boston last year, on Thurs. night, ,even though VT outgained them in the game.....2 years ago in Balcksburg Hokies smoked them 30-10ish.........Public dog in every sense, looks about 50-50 action coming in (huge for a dog)...line hopped to 3.5 from 3 it appears........Like that Tech is showing some sense of an offense......:cheers:
Aplous..I was expecting pts but at same point 'know' wht that number was put out there. I really feel Bob at least has a strong opinion on BC this week.
tradition90
Well-Known Member
As a diehard Trojan fan, your discussion on the Trojans/Ducks game this weekend has finally motivated me to get off the sidelines and start participating.
The last several weeks for the Trojans have been an unbelievable challenge in finding healthy bodies to put on the field. With the injury to Sam Baker (OT) in the Arizona game it left only 2 of 13 OL on the team that were healthy. SB's replacement in the game, RS FR Butch Lewis had not even practiced throughout the week as he had been wearing a boot while recovering from an ankle injury.
With that being said the Trojans will be the healthiest this week since the Nebraska game:
OT S Baker (AA candidate) is still not practicing with the 1st string and is questionable with a hamstring, but B Lewis has now performed very well in two games.
OG C Rachal returns to the starting line up and is a road grader vs the fat 3rd string replacement that has been suiting up for that last 3 games. Also, Byers (OG) and Spanos (C) who have been playing through arm and hand injuries since the Stanford game are feeling much better.
At RB while S Johnson played against ND he could not even run on Monday last week and should be close to 100% at game time.
This will be the first game that the deadly trio of LB's Rivers/Maualuga/Cushing will start together as Cushing is back and Maualuga is recovering from his hip pointer.
I still need an update on the the health status of the CB's, but it did not get worse for the first time this year last week.
Finally, there have been some comments that Sanchez may be better suited for this offense since he worked last year with these WR's while Booty was throwing to Jarrett/Smith. Booty has thrown several int's this year because he was not on the same page as the WR's.
Oregon is a very difficult place to play, yet I get the feeling that the Trojans are starting to get healthy for the most challenging part of the season and will play at a level that has been missing for the last few weeks.
The last several weeks for the Trojans have been an unbelievable challenge in finding healthy bodies to put on the field. With the injury to Sam Baker (OT) in the Arizona game it left only 2 of 13 OL on the team that were healthy. SB's replacement in the game, RS FR Butch Lewis had not even practiced throughout the week as he had been wearing a boot while recovering from an ankle injury.
With that being said the Trojans will be the healthiest this week since the Nebraska game:
OT S Baker (AA candidate) is still not practicing with the 1st string and is questionable with a hamstring, but B Lewis has now performed very well in two games.
OG C Rachal returns to the starting line up and is a road grader vs the fat 3rd string replacement that has been suiting up for that last 3 games. Also, Byers (OG) and Spanos (C) who have been playing through arm and hand injuries since the Stanford game are feeling much better.
At RB while S Johnson played against ND he could not even run on Monday last week and should be close to 100% at game time.
This will be the first game that the deadly trio of LB's Rivers/Maualuga/Cushing will start together as Cushing is back and Maualuga is recovering from his hip pointer.
I still need an update on the the health status of the CB's, but it did not get worse for the first time this year last week.
Finally, there have been some comments that Sanchez may be better suited for this offense since he worked last year with these WR's while Booty was throwing to Jarrett/Smith. Booty has thrown several int's this year because he was not on the same page as the WR's.
Oregon is a very difficult place to play, yet I get the feeling that the Trojans are starting to get healthy for the most challenging part of the season and will play at a level that has been missing for the last few weeks.
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awesome first post. was just talking to someone about the health situation for usc...thanks for the information
Good luck this week BAR. There is a lot of good information in this thread.
FWIW, this is the most that my numbers have been against you in a while. Your picks usually show up good on my math model (there aren't too many conflicts). Not sure why... other than you are leaning on situations, which my math model doesn't touch.
FWIW, this is the most that my numbers have been against you in a while. Your picks usually show up good on my math model (there aren't too many conflicts). Not sure why... other than you are leaning on situations, which my math model doesn't touch.
M
MasterCap
Guest
so whats the final card bar?
and btw...a big hit this week(which ain't gonna happen
) would get me near my stopping point for cfb for the regular season
M
MasterCap
Guest
i was kinda leaning BC because I cant trust the VT QB. I know magic happens on thursday night but im wary. home team gotta lose sometime this year lol
ahitspat
Pretty much a regular
I love kansas a lot this weekend. Im playing them for 5 units. I was hoping that we would destroy a beat up nebraska team and that kansas would bearly squeak by at colorado and it happened so this sets up a pretty big play for me. I might even add a little to it to make it my GOY but not sure yet. A lot of people are talking about Kansas strength of schedule and that finally they are playing a real team in Texas A&M, i just don't buy it. Who have we played? It's kinda sad when we get outgained by teams like montana state. And I honestly think kansas's wins at KSt and CU are quality wins (look who they have knocked off). I just dont see the aggies stopping any attack that kansas has to provide... and kansas has a pretty stiff defense themselves against the run although their stats may be a little skewed due to the teams they played. Still they were able to stop a more than able RB in hugh charles ( went to hs with me)
On a side note, if you are betting kansas, i honestly dont think its good to use the reasoning that texas tech stopped our rush attack. Fran just doesnt know what plays to call. Notice our first drive, we didnt throw the ball once and we scored a TD. After that he decided to rush 1st down and we would get about 5 yards... then he would call a pass which would of course be incomplete forcing him to pass again on third down. The further we got down, the more he wanted to pass the ball... had he just rushed every play or rushed at the right times things would have been fine. I think our average yards per carry was something like 5.4 yards which is ridiculous but fran is dumb. I believe if Kansas stacks the box, they will be able to stop us and you dont really have to worry about the pass with this aggie team.
So i guess when betting you always have to factor in the fran factor as well, but I think Kansas gets it done by 2-3 scores this weekend.
On a side note, if you are betting kansas, i honestly dont think its good to use the reasoning that texas tech stopped our rush attack. Fran just doesnt know what plays to call. Notice our first drive, we didnt throw the ball once and we scored a TD. After that he decided to rush 1st down and we would get about 5 yards... then he would call a pass which would of course be incomplete forcing him to pass again on third down. The further we got down, the more he wanted to pass the ball... had he just rushed every play or rushed at the right times things would have been fine. I think our average yards per carry was something like 5.4 yards which is ridiculous but fran is dumb. I believe if Kansas stacks the box, they will be able to stop us and you dont really have to worry about the pass with this aggie team.
So i guess when betting you always have to factor in the fran factor as well, but I think Kansas gets it done by 2-3 scores this weekend.
whatisfootball
Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on this being a must-win for MSU to be bowl eligible? Looking at their remaining schedule, they'll be a sizable dog in every game.
It is a big game for them due to that. I just cannot discount the Iowa run defense and the look ahead to MSU's biggest game this year. You are right though. They will have to battle to get that elusive win to get to a bowl.
KobeJames823
Pretty much a regular
B.A.R, be careful about that VT offense. They have struggled getting yards all year and this team has one quality win (@ Clemson) in a game they got 21 points without the offense and Taylor had all the offense. With Taylor not going, I like BC because they love to go against guys who are not mobile and I truly think looking at a game two years ago is stupid because Matt Ryan is much better. I think BC gets a close win here and VT struggles on offense. With you on Utah, Ohio St, Arizona St and USF. Good luck to ya.
horses
Brady licks Marino's knob
Hi BAR, I was looking for your writeup on Ohio St and Penn St, since I haven't found a good one supporting OSU though everyone here is on the Bucks.
Thanks for the writeup as I think it's a good one; still disagree with the play though. No way the Ohio St offense is better than Penn St...no way at all. Morelli gets dissed like nobodies business but his numbers aren't bad at all, esp lately. I realize Boeckman leads the B10 in efficiency, but Penn St will eat that dink and dunk stuff for lunch this weekend. Home team has covered the last nine in this series and now the home team that I had rated higher at the beginning of the year is catching 4 points. Say what?
Thanks for the writeup as I think it's a good one; still disagree with the play though. No way the Ohio St offense is better than Penn St...no way at all. Morelli gets dissed like nobodies business but his numbers aren't bad at all, esp lately. I realize Boeckman leads the B10 in efficiency, but Penn St will eat that dink and dunk stuff for lunch this weekend. Home team has covered the last nine in this series and now the home team that I had rated higher at the beginning of the year is catching 4 points. Say what?
budhachi
Well-Known Member
Nice write up B.A.R. Another analogy....
Cal lost to UCLA who lost to the Irish....at the Rose Bowl!!!!!
Cal is not that good.....
Horses, the Morelli factor is that BIG...even PSU fans like smoke agree.
PSU defense gave up a lot of points to Inidana and Illinois. They can be scored on. Michigan's line play dominated them, and OSU's line will dominate as well...the coaching advantage is a little lopisided too. PSU will try and run, which is fine becasue Morelli will turn it over. PSU will need to play a perfect game to win...which happens often this year with the upsets all over the place...I honestly don't understand why OSU can't all of a sudden handle a hostile environment?
PSU defense gave up a lot of points to Inidana and Illinois. They can be scored on. Michigan's line play dominated them, and OSU's line will dominate as well...the coaching advantage is a little lopisided too. PSU will try and run, which is fine becasue Morelli will turn it over. PSU will need to play a perfect game to win...which happens often this year with the upsets all over the place...I honestly don't understand why OSU can't all of a sudden handle a hostile environment?
horses
Brady licks Marino's knob
Huntdog, Agreed that OSU's defensive numbers look better than Penn St's do; I was really impressed what they were able to do at Purdue. Penn St hasn't been able to match that on the road.
Nevertheless, you guys are talking like tOSU has a huge QB advantage in this game. I've watched the Buckeyes and save for an occassional fly pattern to Robiskie, this team never throws the ball farther than a few yards down the field. Boeckman will be in over his head in this game...not Morelli.
If OSU gets down in this game by a couple scores...they are DONE; at least Penn St has a downfield passing game if they get behind though I wouldn't be too hopeful of them coming back either against that Buckeye defense.
Still not sure how you can't acknowledge a 9-0 ATS run by the home team in this series. Better Ohio St teams have lost to lesser Penn St teams at this site...and now you're giving ME points.
Enjoy the game gentlemen; it is sure to be a good one and be decided in the 4th quarter.
BAR, the Gobblers did it to me last nite as well. :moose:
Nevertheless, you guys are talking like tOSU has a huge QB advantage in this game. I've watched the Buckeyes and save for an occassional fly pattern to Robiskie, this team never throws the ball farther than a few yards down the field. Boeckman will be in over his head in this game...not Morelli.
If OSU gets down in this game by a couple scores...they are DONE; at least Penn St has a downfield passing game if they get behind though I wouldn't be too hopeful of them coming back either against that Buckeye defense.
Still not sure how you can't acknowledge a 9-0 ATS run by the home team in this series. Better Ohio St teams have lost to lesser Penn St teams at this site...and now you're giving ME points.
Enjoy the game gentlemen; it is sure to be a good one and be decided in the 4th quarter.
BAR, the Gobblers did it to me last nite as well. :moose:
sportfanatic71
Pretty much a regular
GL this week bar and great info you provide!
Thanks sportsfanatic....
OSU-PSU
Horses, I agree that Ohio State isn't going to pass all over this team. I do think they will get a shot or two downfield though. PSU let a young QB in Mallett make critical throws in 4th qtr to clinch the UM win against PSU. Beanie Wells will just wear down this Penn St defense much like Mike Hart did. Ohio St's offensive line is even better than Michigans. Penn States defense is good but not as dominant as many of us though it could be entering the season.
Morelli will clam up in this game. This Ohio St defense just shut down the 'statistically' best offense in the big-10 last week in Michigan St. they ran 7...yes...7 plays in OSU territory. PSU isn't going to run at all. That puts the ball in Morells hands and that is never a good thing unless your playing Youngstown St. He is good for 2 picks in this game and plenty of errant throws. Once pressure gets to him he completely gets flustered.
Meanwhile, back to the PSU defense, they have struggled against the likes of IU and Illy. Yes, they did shut down Wisky and Iowa at home but UW had injuries and Iowa is anemic.
Will the enviroment be tough? Absolutely. This just seems to much like last years UM-PSU game in Nappey Valley at night. Michigan dominated from the start other than a garbage TD for PSU late.
I see same type of game. If OSU turns ball over multiple times then we'll see but Sweatwervest won't put Todd in those situations in my opinion.
OSU-PSU
Horses, I agree that Ohio State isn't going to pass all over this team. I do think they will get a shot or two downfield though. PSU let a young QB in Mallett make critical throws in 4th qtr to clinch the UM win against PSU. Beanie Wells will just wear down this Penn St defense much like Mike Hart did. Ohio St's offensive line is even better than Michigans. Penn States defense is good but not as dominant as many of us though it could be entering the season.
Morelli will clam up in this game. This Ohio St defense just shut down the 'statistically' best offense in the big-10 last week in Michigan St. they ran 7...yes...7 plays in OSU territory. PSU isn't going to run at all. That puts the ball in Morells hands and that is never a good thing unless your playing Youngstown St. He is good for 2 picks in this game and plenty of errant throws. Once pressure gets to him he completely gets flustered.
Meanwhile, back to the PSU defense, they have struggled against the likes of IU and Illy. Yes, they did shut down Wisky and Iowa at home but UW had injuries and Iowa is anemic.
Will the enviroment be tough? Absolutely. This just seems to much like last years UM-PSU game in Nappey Valley at night. Michigan dominated from the start other than a garbage TD for PSU late.
I see same type of game. If OSU turns ball over multiple times then we'll see but Sweatwervest won't put Todd in those situations in my opinion.
News sports reporter Antoine Pitts takes a look at No. 19 Michigan's foe on Saturday: the Minnesota Golden Gophers.
Where they're from
Minneapolis; where two new stadiums are under construction: a downtown baseball ballpark for the Twins to open in 2010 and the on-campus TCF Bank Stadium for Golden Gopher football to open in 2009.
What they've done
In coach Tim Brewster's first season, Minnesota has one win. It came over Miami (Ohio) in week two. The Golden Gophers (1-7, 0-4 Big Ten) have lost to teams from the Mid-American Conference (Bowling Green), the Sun Belt Conference (Florida Atlantic ) and Division I-AA (North Dakota State).
No bowling
Minnesota was the first Big Ten team eliminated from bowl consideration when it fell 27-21 at home last week to North Dakota State. Under previous coach Glen Mason, the Gophers played postseason football the last five seasons, but he was fired after Minnesota blew a 24-point lead to lose in overtime to Texas Tech in the Insight Bowl.
Young secondary
Minnesota's defensive backs are coached by Ronnie Lee, who was an assistant at Michigan last season and known as Ron Lee. The Gophers will start three freshmen in the secondary - Kyle Theret, Curtis Thomas and Ryan Collado - against Michigan. Minnesota has already given up a nation-worst 533.63 yards per game, including a nation-worst 342 passing yards.
In memory
The Gophers wear two patches on their uniforms: An "FK" for longtime Minnesota compliance director Frank Kara, who lost his battle with cancer in July, and a "35W" for the victims of the August bridge collapse in Minneapolis.
Players to watch
As a redshirt freshman, quarterback Adam Weber has taken every snap, compiling 305.9 yards of total offense per game, ranking second in the Big Ten. Senior receiver Ernie Wheelwright has eight touchdown catches. Senior safety Dominique Barber, the brother of former Minnesota running back Marion Barber III, has a team-high 73 tackles
Where they're from
Minneapolis; where two new stadiums are under construction: a downtown baseball ballpark for the Twins to open in 2010 and the on-campus TCF Bank Stadium for Golden Gopher football to open in 2009.
What they've done
In coach Tim Brewster's first season, Minnesota has one win. It came over Miami (Ohio) in week two. The Golden Gophers (1-7, 0-4 Big Ten) have lost to teams from the Mid-American Conference (Bowling Green), the Sun Belt Conference (Florida Atlantic ) and Division I-AA (North Dakota State).
No bowling
Minnesota was the first Big Ten team eliminated from bowl consideration when it fell 27-21 at home last week to North Dakota State. Under previous coach Glen Mason, the Gophers played postseason football the last five seasons, but he was fired after Minnesota blew a 24-point lead to lose in overtime to Texas Tech in the Insight Bowl.
Young secondary
Minnesota's defensive backs are coached by Ronnie Lee, who was an assistant at Michigan last season and known as Ron Lee. The Gophers will start three freshmen in the secondary - Kyle Theret, Curtis Thomas and Ryan Collado - against Michigan. Minnesota has already given up a nation-worst 533.63 yards per game, including a nation-worst 342 passing yards.
In memory
The Gophers wear two patches on their uniforms: An "FK" for longtime Minnesota compliance director Frank Kara, who lost his battle with cancer in July, and a "35W" for the victims of the August bridge collapse in Minneapolis.
Players to watch
As a redshirt freshman, quarterback Adam Weber has taken every snap, compiling 305.9 yards of total offense per game, ranking second in the Big Ten. Senior receiver Ernie Wheelwright has eight touchdown catches. Senior safety Dominique Barber, the brother of former Minnesota running back Marion Barber III, has a team-high 73 tackles
EAST LANSING -- Anybody who's ever seen a police investigation from the inside out, from its inception to the conclusion, knows that things aren't always as they've seem. Anyone who's ever served on jury duty for a criminal case, or observed a trial from behind the rail, knows that the final facts don't always line up with first impressions. In fact, I'd wager to say that regardless of the outcome, the end result is almost always surprising in some way.
After covering cops and courts for the first four years of my journalism career and Michigan State sports, where athletes and trouble have all-too often gone hand-in-hand, for 21-plus the most important things I have learned -- the hard way in some cases -- is never assume and don't rush to judgment. Suspects I concluded were scumbags have turned out to be innocent and some I felt were choirboys later turned out to be scoundrals of the highest order.
And so it is with Wednesday's arraignment of Spartan defensive back T.J. Williams, linebacker SirDarean Adams and reserve defensive back Jeremy Ware on felony unarmed robbery charges -- Williams also has been charged with a misdemeanor assault and battery charge -- that I step back and wait for the picture to come into sharper focus.
The incident took place during the early hours of April 21, in a grocery store parking lot in close proximity to an apartment complex where a party was being held. The players were obviously out just hours before MSU was to hold its spring game. Even if the players had done nothing to warrant police involvement, they put themselves in a position worthy of being disciplined.
Although a direct correlation was never made, we can infer from subsequent circumstances that new coach Mark Dantonio did impose sanctions against these players for reasons explained only as violating team rules.
Williams was not allowed to play in the spring game. Furthermore, he and Adams were not allowed to be with the team during the summer, meaning they would fall behind and their starting jobs would be in jeopardy. Adams did lose his starting job in preseason camp and Williams was not allowed to take part in camp nor suit up for the first two games.
Was that enough under the circumstances? The knee-jerk reactions that have come in response to this incident are bruising foreheads everywhere. Some are saying Williams, Adams and Ware should be on indefinite suspension or kicked off the team. They certainly shouldn't be playing in games.
Keeping them on the team appears to be self-serving on Dantonio's part who needs Williams and Adams to win.
Those are the kind of criticisms that make coaching such a high-paying job, especially since it would be easier to give into such pressure than stand up to it. Hey, they're just kids, and disposable at that.
But, Dantonio said the players have maintained their innocence from the start. If you're a coach, how do you build a team if you show you're players you may not trust or believe them when the heat gets turned on under you? Is that how a family would do it, and make no mistake, teams consider themselves families?
The thing is, there is always more to a case than people on the outside, even reporters, know. Cops almost always have information about a case that ultimately fills in the blanks in ways that often are never expected -- they call them hidden case facts but I called them "a-ha moments". They could very well be what makes the case when revealed, or save a shakey case if kept secret.
Coaches, I have learned, also act on a lot more information that the public will ever know about. That information often is the difference between standing behind a player or throwing him under the bus.
So I don't rush to judgment. And isn't it amazing that after the Duke lacrosse team fiasco the climate still fosters a presumption of guilt. Wasn't it just within the last year that we all said, man, after what that prosecutor, the media and the university did to those kids -- staining their lives forever, disrupting their education, not to mention ruining their athletic careers -- that rushing to judgment is a bad thing?
Those Duke players can never get those college days back. The championship they might have won is gone for ever. And why? Because of case built on what turned out to be baseless information.
Of course Dantonio has to establish a code of discipline that his players will live by. Players who abide by the rules will not respect him if he doesn't deal appropriately with players who don't. Furthermore, players will not respect teammates who do bad things, and may even turn their backs on them in the locker room and on the field of play. So-called "star treatment" brought the MSU to its knees just a few years ago.
Players have a way of determining guilt or innocence better in some instances than a court of law can.
By the same token, players, and their parents, won't respect a coach they can't trust to treat them fairly and take them at their word when there is no evidence their word is no good.
I would think Dantonio knows these things, or he has no business being a head coach at any level.
It's a fine line. Ingham County prosecutor Stuart Dunnings III told me that a cell phone and a wallet were taken during the course of the alleged robbery. That's serious stuff. The victims' right are equally important and cannot be diminished in any way.
But until the case goes to trial, we don't know the actual circumstances or each player's alleged role.
I certainly don't have the knowledge or wisdome to say with any degree of certainty that Adams, for example, should be sitting out his final season as a college player based on what I know. That may be too high a price for him to pay once we know the extent of his alleged involvement. Based on what I know of Dantonio after a few months, I doubt it would not be enough, unless he is really being foolish.
And what if the players are acquitted? Punishing them beforehand in a public manner would mean Dantonio is presuming their guilt, not their innocence. How is due process served in that case?
And would suspending Adams and Williams for the season unduly penalize the rest of the team who are relying on them?
My rule of thumb is I always hope people get what they deserve in life. If convictions occur those penalties will be far harsher than missing a football game even if no jail time is involved. Being in the criminal justice system is no picnic.
Finally, what ever happened to second chances? How many of us have forgiven a son, brother or friend for getting a fight, or shoplifting, or minor in possession or drunk driving? Of course you see to it that they are punished, but you don't necessarily end their lives as they know it.
There is a fine line. I've always said that if I were a coach, I would have a hard time allowing a player to remain on the team if there is a good chance he'd be found guilty of rape, murder or manslaughter or arson. The ramifications of winning a championship with a rapist on my team are just too overwhelming unless I have rock-solid information my guy is innocent and the charges are baseless. That's a difficult judgment call, either way.
What is known about this case requires us to navigate through the gray areas of the law until the facts are brought to light in a courtroom, possibly as soon as next week's pretrial hearing to determine if there is enough evidence to go to trial.
How you feel about Dantonio's handling of this incident so far cannot be disputed.
Either you trust him to do the right thing, or you don't.
PREDICTION -- It's sobering how one minute you're contemplating whether MSU can win if its defense remains a sieve when it comes to big plays, and the next whether the lives of three young people could forever changed by the decisions they made or didn't make. But hey, isn't that true of all of us?
Still, there is a game to be played and has rarely been an easy out for the Spartans in recent memory. Hawkeyes 21, MSU 20.
After covering cops and courts for the first four years of my journalism career and Michigan State sports, where athletes and trouble have all-too often gone hand-in-hand, for 21-plus the most important things I have learned -- the hard way in some cases -- is never assume and don't rush to judgment. Suspects I concluded were scumbags have turned out to be innocent and some I felt were choirboys later turned out to be scoundrals of the highest order.
And so it is with Wednesday's arraignment of Spartan defensive back T.J. Williams, linebacker SirDarean Adams and reserve defensive back Jeremy Ware on felony unarmed robbery charges -- Williams also has been charged with a misdemeanor assault and battery charge -- that I step back and wait for the picture to come into sharper focus.
The incident took place during the early hours of April 21, in a grocery store parking lot in close proximity to an apartment complex where a party was being held. The players were obviously out just hours before MSU was to hold its spring game. Even if the players had done nothing to warrant police involvement, they put themselves in a position worthy of being disciplined.
Although a direct correlation was never made, we can infer from subsequent circumstances that new coach Mark Dantonio did impose sanctions against these players for reasons explained only as violating team rules.
Williams was not allowed to play in the spring game. Furthermore, he and Adams were not allowed to be with the team during the summer, meaning they would fall behind and their starting jobs would be in jeopardy. Adams did lose his starting job in preseason camp and Williams was not allowed to take part in camp nor suit up for the first two games.
Was that enough under the circumstances? The knee-jerk reactions that have come in response to this incident are bruising foreheads everywhere. Some are saying Williams, Adams and Ware should be on indefinite suspension or kicked off the team. They certainly shouldn't be playing in games.
Keeping them on the team appears to be self-serving on Dantonio's part who needs Williams and Adams to win.
Those are the kind of criticisms that make coaching such a high-paying job, especially since it would be easier to give into such pressure than stand up to it. Hey, they're just kids, and disposable at that.
But, Dantonio said the players have maintained their innocence from the start. If you're a coach, how do you build a team if you show you're players you may not trust or believe them when the heat gets turned on under you? Is that how a family would do it, and make no mistake, teams consider themselves families?
The thing is, there is always more to a case than people on the outside, even reporters, know. Cops almost always have information about a case that ultimately fills in the blanks in ways that often are never expected -- they call them hidden case facts but I called them "a-ha moments". They could very well be what makes the case when revealed, or save a shakey case if kept secret.
Coaches, I have learned, also act on a lot more information that the public will ever know about. That information often is the difference between standing behind a player or throwing him under the bus.
So I don't rush to judgment. And isn't it amazing that after the Duke lacrosse team fiasco the climate still fosters a presumption of guilt. Wasn't it just within the last year that we all said, man, after what that prosecutor, the media and the university did to those kids -- staining their lives forever, disrupting their education, not to mention ruining their athletic careers -- that rushing to judgment is a bad thing?
Those Duke players can never get those college days back. The championship they might have won is gone for ever. And why? Because of case built on what turned out to be baseless information.
Of course Dantonio has to establish a code of discipline that his players will live by. Players who abide by the rules will not respect him if he doesn't deal appropriately with players who don't. Furthermore, players will not respect teammates who do bad things, and may even turn their backs on them in the locker room and on the field of play. So-called "star treatment" brought the MSU to its knees just a few years ago.
Players have a way of determining guilt or innocence better in some instances than a court of law can.
By the same token, players, and their parents, won't respect a coach they can't trust to treat them fairly and take them at their word when there is no evidence their word is no good.
I would think Dantonio knows these things, or he has no business being a head coach at any level.
It's a fine line. Ingham County prosecutor Stuart Dunnings III told me that a cell phone and a wallet were taken during the course of the alleged robbery. That's serious stuff. The victims' right are equally important and cannot be diminished in any way.
But until the case goes to trial, we don't know the actual circumstances or each player's alleged role.
I certainly don't have the knowledge or wisdome to say with any degree of certainty that Adams, for example, should be sitting out his final season as a college player based on what I know. That may be too high a price for him to pay once we know the extent of his alleged involvement. Based on what I know of Dantonio after a few months, I doubt it would not be enough, unless he is really being foolish.
And what if the players are acquitted? Punishing them beforehand in a public manner would mean Dantonio is presuming their guilt, not their innocence. How is due process served in that case?
And would suspending Adams and Williams for the season unduly penalize the rest of the team who are relying on them?
My rule of thumb is I always hope people get what they deserve in life. If convictions occur those penalties will be far harsher than missing a football game even if no jail time is involved. Being in the criminal justice system is no picnic.
Finally, what ever happened to second chances? How many of us have forgiven a son, brother or friend for getting a fight, or shoplifting, or minor in possession or drunk driving? Of course you see to it that they are punished, but you don't necessarily end their lives as they know it.
There is a fine line. I've always said that if I were a coach, I would have a hard time allowing a player to remain on the team if there is a good chance he'd be found guilty of rape, murder or manslaughter or arson. The ramifications of winning a championship with a rapist on my team are just too overwhelming unless I have rock-solid information my guy is innocent and the charges are baseless. That's a difficult judgment call, either way.
What is known about this case requires us to navigate through the gray areas of the law until the facts are brought to light in a courtroom, possibly as soon as next week's pretrial hearing to determine if there is enough evidence to go to trial.
How you feel about Dantonio's handling of this incident so far cannot be disputed.
Either you trust him to do the right thing, or you don't.
PREDICTION -- It's sobering how one minute you're contemplating whether MSU can win if its defense remains a sieve when it comes to big plays, and the next whether the lives of three young people could forever changed by the decisions they made or didn't make. But hey, isn't that true of all of us?
Still, there is a game to be played and has rarely been an easy out for the Spartans in recent memory. Hawkeyes 21, MSU 20.
JumpOnBoard
CTG Partner
:36_11_6:
horses
Brady licks Marino's knob
Thanks for the writeup, BAR, good stuff as always. I needed you to jog my memory, but you're right, Michigan was up 17-3 late LY when PSU got a meaningless, late TD to pull within 17-10. Wolves did dominate that game.
I'm tempted to just sit this one out and pull for all the OSU players, there's so many, inc your big play. As usual, this will be an entertaining wknd.
You're probably pulling double duty getting ready for the NBA season to commence.
I'm tempted to just sit this one out and pull for all the OSU players, there's so many, inc your big play. As usual, this will be an entertaining wknd.
You're probably pulling double duty getting ready for the NBA season to commence.
thanks man...
I had Under big and PSU small last year in that game so that TD saved me at +7.5
Yeah, NBA is almost here. Did a lot of early studying and will do some more prep work over next 5 days....
Going to be quite the interesting year
Smokedawg
Eagles Fan
Im not gonna try and change anyones opinion for a few reasons, the least of which being Im a biased homer that doesnt know anything, so take what I say with a grain of salt...
You can throw PSU's road games (UM, Illinois and Indiana) out the window. This is a totally different team at home - its unreal how much better they are there - especially the defense.
Theres no doubt in my mind that OSU will be rattled playing infront of the largest (and possibly, the drunkest) crowd in Beaver Stadium history. This is only the 2nd time PSU has ever hosted the #1 team, so its going to be insane. Words really cant do the homefield advantage they have gotten there (especially over the past few years) justice. It will be the toughest environment anyone has to play in all year - and thats no exaggeration.
Now, I dont think OSU's offense is up to that task - but I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again sometime, I just dont think this is that time.
As for Morelli, yes, he scares me to death. If we had Michael Robinson at QB, we'd be 3 point favs and win the game by 10+ no problem.
The problem with Morelli is hes un-cappable. I mean he literally is capable of doing absolutely anything on the field. Ive seen the kid throw 25 yard crossing routes and hit the guy in stride through 3 defenders. But Ive also seen him miss 5 yard swing passes by 10 yards. If he just flat out sucked (like Zach Mills) and you knew what you were gonna get, that would be one thing - but this guy is all over the map. The potential and ability seems to be there, but the head...eh - not so much.
From what I can see, his main problem is he seems like he decides who hes throwing the ball to in the huddle. He takes the snap, stares that guy down and throws it to him. It doesn't matter if hes triple covered and theres someone else running a streak wide open down the other side, hes throwing the ball to his first read. Sometimes though, the guys actually open and he makes a great throw. Other times, well, thats when I bump the 'People I Want to Punch in the Face Thread' with 25 Anthony Morellis (its strangely therapeutic, nonetheless, I digress...)
That being said, I think the PSU coaches will try to jump on OSU early with a big play or two. If they hit them and OSU has to play from behind? Its over, they have no chance. If Morelli screws em up and we have to play from behind? I dont like our chances. Bottom line is if Morelli doesnt throw an interception, (and our damn running backs dont fumble - which theyve had an unnerving propensity for doing all year) we win the game. Thats a tall task for these guys, especially against OSUs defense, but I think the gameplan will be solid, Morelli will be put in positions where it will be tough for him to screw it up all by himself and the crowd will carry them through.
I really do believe that. But then again I'm just a blind homer who knows nothing and thought we wouldve beat Michigan at least once in the last fucking decade!!
You can throw PSU's road games (UM, Illinois and Indiana) out the window. This is a totally different team at home - its unreal how much better they are there - especially the defense.
Theres no doubt in my mind that OSU will be rattled playing infront of the largest (and possibly, the drunkest) crowd in Beaver Stadium history. This is only the 2nd time PSU has ever hosted the #1 team, so its going to be insane. Words really cant do the homefield advantage they have gotten there (especially over the past few years) justice. It will be the toughest environment anyone has to play in all year - and thats no exaggeration.
Now, I dont think OSU's offense is up to that task - but I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again sometime, I just dont think this is that time.
As for Morelli, yes, he scares me to death. If we had Michael Robinson at QB, we'd be 3 point favs and win the game by 10+ no problem.
The problem with Morelli is hes un-cappable. I mean he literally is capable of doing absolutely anything on the field. Ive seen the kid throw 25 yard crossing routes and hit the guy in stride through 3 defenders. But Ive also seen him miss 5 yard swing passes by 10 yards. If he just flat out sucked (like Zach Mills) and you knew what you were gonna get, that would be one thing - but this guy is all over the map. The potential and ability seems to be there, but the head...eh - not so much.
From what I can see, his main problem is he seems like he decides who hes throwing the ball to in the huddle. He takes the snap, stares that guy down and throws it to him. It doesn't matter if hes triple covered and theres someone else running a streak wide open down the other side, hes throwing the ball to his first read. Sometimes though, the guys actually open and he makes a great throw. Other times, well, thats when I bump the 'People I Want to Punch in the Face Thread' with 25 Anthony Morellis (its strangely therapeutic, nonetheless, I digress...)
That being said, I think the PSU coaches will try to jump on OSU early with a big play or two. If they hit them and OSU has to play from behind? Its over, they have no chance. If Morelli screws em up and we have to play from behind? I dont like our chances. Bottom line is if Morelli doesnt throw an interception, (and our damn running backs dont fumble - which theyve had an unnerving propensity for doing all year) we win the game. Thats a tall task for these guys, especially against OSUs defense, but I think the gameplan will be solid, Morelli will be put in positions where it will be tough for him to screw it up all by himself and the crowd will carry them through.
I really do believe that. But then again I'm just a blind homer who knows nothing and thought we wouldve beat Michigan at least once in the last fucking decade!!
PRECISEwon
Stuck at the 19th hole
tailing ohio st and minny...GL B.A.R-outine!!
xpression syst_m
a true american rags to rags story...
Looks like it may get back up there again. 43 may be available in the morning
Sammy Meatballs
Sammy Meatballs? Never Heard of Her
Agree BAR with Ohio state, when you need a win you go with the solid big game coach vs Penn state.
Ohio state is a good buy as they are undervalued and Penn state is being overvalued with the current line. Ohio state is the much better team and will win this game .
Ohio state is a good buy as they are undervalued and Penn state is being overvalued with the current line. Ohio state is the much better team and will win this game .
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