VC and BAR Michigan State vs Michigan Collaboration Thread

VirginiaCavs

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Game is in East Lansing on Sat. morning. Michigan opened up at -6.5. Early love for Michigan has already brought that number up to -7.5.

I'll start from the Michigan State perspective:

A lot of injury details affecting the o-line and receiving crew...

For the early part of the season, Sparty's offensive line (returned four minus center) has dealt with injuries . LG Beedle is out, the centers had rotated, the right tackle was getting crushed. RG Jarvis is injured and listed as 'questionable.' But there may be some hope for improvement. Veteran LT Chewins is very important and he's been back. Sparty simplified and changed some things on the o-line and it had a running back who averaged 5.5 on eight carries, another who averaged 4.0 on 15 carries. Both had a run of 26, 27 yards respectively. That's at least something. Some holes were there.

The WR crew has also suffered injuries. Five of them have been banged up. Cody White is out, Stewart and Nailor are listed as 'questionable.' Sowards' status is unclear but he can't do anything anyways. Chambers played with a bandage and his injury hindered his effectivity. Nelson was going to be redshirted but he played and played well against PSU. It's obvious that Lewerke is overwhelmingly reliant on Felton Davis especially on third down and in the red zone.

So basically Lewerke's supporting cast merits some serious doubt. 21 points against Penn State, seven came off a pair of trick plays. 19 points vs NW the week before, seven (Sparty's sole touchdown) of which came off a sweep to Davis. Lewerke threw 52 passes, the one INT came because a receiver hit the ball in the air so really wasn't his fault.

Lewerke threw it over 50 times in each of the past two games. Thats not something that Dantonio typically wants to do. But Sparty doesn't have much of a run game because of its o-line mostly. No running back averages 4 yards per carry. Pass protection gets to look better because of Lewerke's mobility, he has the ability to beat a defensive end to the edge with his speed. He has good awareness downfield, he can go through his progressions and find someone when the play breaks down, but when he hurries a throw like when he throws on the run he relies too much on his upper body and the throw often won't make it to the receiver, which is frustrating.

So the point is that the o-line and receiving crew have really struggled with injuries. Its really the receiving crew that explains Lewerke's high INT total, not so much Lewerke's ball placement and even less so his decision-making. So I think that the health of the receiving crew is something that needs to be monitored. Davis will be Lewerke's top guy but he needs other guys as well. Nelson is brand new although he had a nice first performance and not just whether Chambers plays but whether he's catching balls easily again is important.
Also: LJ Scott is still out at running back.


Defense is a lot simpler to explain:

Sparty's run defense had been highly touted. The stat sheet is skewed. Sanders had two long runs, one was a piece of schematic brilliance whereby the Sparty defense was split wide a hole was opened in the middle for Sanders to dart through. The other long run was Sanders producing a highlight reel, bouncing off of several tackles and going for a touchdown. On the one hand, Sanders did nothing outside of those two efforts. But the long runs are concerning given the fact that Sparty's run D hadn't really been challenged.

Sparty's pass D looked much better. That's also a matter of deceiving stats. Sparty's pass D really struggles against up-tempo offenses and against dink-and-dunk because its linebackers struggle in pass coverage. Sparty contained Trace well, didn't let him run like crazy as he did against OSU. My judgement is that Sparty defends teams who like to go deep (ok there was one blown assignment against NW and a deep pass against a backup seeing his first action on a beautifully thrown ball by Thorson...exceptions: Sparty ranks 23rd in opp yards per completion but outside top 100 in yards allowed per game.) and struggles against the Northwesterns and Indianas of the world who dink and dunk and the tempo teams like Utah State and Arizona State and, again, Indiana (Sparty's defeat of Indiana was very flukish in some regards--- a couple very unlucky 4th down failed conversions early messed things up for Indiana, etc etc.) Josiah Scott still out. But Justin Layne has awesome speed to go with his size. Khari Willis at safety has looked superb and carries the responsibility for containing Trace. So there are strong pieces in Sparty's secondary to go along with the pretty awesome run-stopping linebackers above all Bachie. The defensive line isn't anything to write home about, Willekes has been a positive surprise as a former walk-on, that's all.




Sorry I totally lost the forest for the trees here.

Basically worried about Sparty's ability to score outside of some trick plays that Michigan will need to watch out for. I really like Lewerke, but who does he have to throw to. How meaningful were Sparty's schematic changes in the o-line--i..e. evidence for real improvement or reflective of Penn State's issues at d-line.

I want to know about Michigan: if the pass attack is more dink-and-dunk like Indiana and Northwestern, or more inclined to go deep.
Sparty's run D, I would say, definitely didn't pass the hype test because of the two long runs that it allowed to a back who combines both size and speed and freakish athleticism too. 14 points could easily be the difference in this game and Michigan has not one but two strong running backs.
 
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Alright,

Good start.

Lets remember the line opened at -5 and got hammered to 7.5 pretty quickly before settling at 6.5 for a bit and now around 7. Everything here seems about right.

We'll dig into this deep. I don't know if we'll find a winning play but hopefully some good info will come out of this thread. Friendly banter...later...

The biggest question going into the game from a Michigan perspective...

Are they here this year to match Michigan State in intensity as far as how important this game is? That is the key. Last year, they absolute were not. This is Michigan States Super Bowl, and always will be. You can ask 50 Spartan fans if they want a 10-2 year with a loss to Michigan or a 7-5 year with a win over Michigan and more than half(minimum) will say the latter.

That is the number one thing to cap here.

Since Harbaugh was hired...

MSU 29-16

Mich 34-12

Michigan State leads the series 2-1

2015 was the fumbled punt game.

2016 Michigan dominated them in East Lansing

2017 MSU took the Monsoon game via a great game plan and simply wanted it more. Out coached and out worked that week.
 
Subjects pertinent to this weeks game...

-Weather

-Injuries for both teams

-Michigan offensive scheme vs Michigan State defense

-Special Teams

-Trick plays
 
On defense, I wonder how MSU will game plan for Shea....will they accord Shea's athleticism and ability with his feet the same respect that they did to Trace?
Can the defensive line, even if it doesn't amp the stat sheet with sacks, at least get pressure to help disrupt the short passing game? How much man coverage is Sparty willing to play to help against the short passing game, the slants and other in-routes in the middle of the field?
What will help Michigan is the ability to make adjustments at the LOS. If Shea sees the corners and safeties playing farther back, then he needs to recognize that and Michigan needs to throw a slant down the middle to Gentry
 
The fun part here is Michigan State will have no idea what is coming next week. It could be vanilla Michigan, it could be 'get your hopes up about the offense' Michigan... it really could be anything.

I asked for early throwing and I got it last week. It opened everything up. Then Harbaugh got what he wanted, run run and run some more all of the 2nd half.

First down passing is such an ASSET for Michigan and their offense, so I hope to see that again. Michigan State is a very good running defense so you need to make them respect that but also open things up in other ways. By no means do I want to see 40 pass attempts at all, that simply doesn't work for Michigan vs State.

The much maligned Michigan offensive line has gotten better every week. The last few weeks they have looked unreal. It is a testament to the hiring of Warriner. We knew the couple of bad seeds around the coaching staff and they finally got rid of them. This is a very good test for them though. I do expect them to have some struggles at times.
 
Why would you not want to see 40 passes? This is what teams have done from the beginning of the season with Utah State to beat Sparty.
 
MSU had the best rushing D prior to the Penn State game and is still #1. They are 26 in total defense and 41 in scoring D (22 ppg)

Michigan is almost as good in rushing D at #15. They give up close to twice as many ypg, but still only allow 108. In other D stats Michigan is a little better, #9 in scoring D (15ppg) and #2 in total D.

Kicking game looks like a push to me. Both teams have veteran kickers and punters,

Michigan State has been a strong home play under Dantonio, Michigan has been good on the road under Harbaugh, but only .500 as a road favorite.

They looked like the same team against N Western although Michigan got N Western on the road.

Michigan looks like a superior to team to me, but BAR has it right when he says this game is always more important to Michigan Stage and they always remember the "little brother" attitude Michigan has.
 
Why would you not want to see 40 passes? This is what teams have done from the beginning of the season with Utah State to beat Sparty.
No I would not.

Michigan averages 67.3 plays per games.

A nice breakdown, just thinking out loud...

28 RB/WR/FB runs

7 QB Runs

2 Sacks

30 Passes


You can even elevate that number is Michigan can play with a lead as far as runs in the 4th quarter.

Forty passes means we are playing from behind or have not tried to stay balanced which leads to mistakes generally.
 
MSU had the best rushing D prior to the Penn State game and is still #1. They are 26 in total defense and 41 in scoring D (22 ppg)

Michigan is almost as good in rushing D at #15. They give up close to twice as many ypg, but still only allow 108. In other D stats Michigan is a little better, #9 in scoring D (15ppg) and #2 in total D.

Kicking game looks like a push to me. Both teams have veteran kickers and punters,

Michigan State has been a strong home play under Dantonio, Michigan has been good on the road under Harbaugh, but only .500 as a road favorite.

They looked like the same team against N Western although Michigan got N Western on the road.

Michigan looks like a superior to team to me, but BAR has it right when he says this game is always more important to Michigan Stage and they always remember the "little brother" attitude Michigan has.

Tyler Hunt, the Michigan State punter just started kicking in the Indiana game. Their regular punter, Hartbarger, was lost to injury against Arizona State. Hunt had 10 punts for a bit over 400 yards in Happy Valley.

Quinn Nordin, aka, Iron Jock... has been semi-erratic this year. Something is off with his mechanics in my mind. So, we shall.
 
I think that it would be a mistake to be balanced. Penn State was balanced. 32 throws, 32 runs.

Conversely, Utah State 44 passes, Arizona State 48 passes, Northwestern 47 passes. And the first two teams attacked the short passing game. NW did not (though they did last year; also, PPSU did not), but Thorson was also amazing with his accuracy, scrambling out of the pocket and making plays, blown assignment...just a good qb vs unfortunate/sub par effort on D.
 
Sparty run D tho had faced nobody, really just a bunch of nobodies who mostly hardly even tried to run, until they faced Sanders. Two big plays in the 1H for touchdowns. Shut down in the second half. There's a decent bit up for interpretation there.
 
Then I would love to live bet Michigan if Sparty starts out with a lead and Mich is forced to pass. As long as Shea wouldn't press it downfield like Trace did later in the game
 
I think that it would be a mistake to be balanced. Penn State was balanced. 32 throws, 32 runs.

Conversely, Utah State 44 passes, Arizona State 48 passes, Northwestern 47 passes. And the first two teams attacked the short passing game. NW did not (though they did last year; also, PPSU did not), but Thorson was also amazing with his accuracy, scrambling out of the pocket and making plays, blown assignment...just a good qb vs unfortunate/sub par effort on D.

We are talking about different styles of teams.

ASU has Eno but that O-line was brutal to start the year.

Utah State is a different animal all-together.

Northwestern just lost Larkin a few weeks ago. Couple the fact that they have not much back there and couldn't when they tried and they had no other choice.

Penn State may have been balanced but I do not think all of the 32 passes really attacked where they should have.
 
This will be an ugly game. Michigan run offense won’t be as easy to get going on the road at noon, and I don’t think MSU puts any long drives together. I’d weather cooperates this should go under.
 
This will be an ugly game. Michigan run offense won’t be as easy to get going on the road at noon, and I don’t think MSU puts any long drives together. I’d weather cooperates this should go under.
And lets take a look at the weather.

As of now, it looks to be in the forties around gametime.

The focus here will be the wind. The 5 day outlook is calling for 15-20 mph as of now.

Obviously, this can all change and in the most unpredictable weather state in country it most likely will.

Just, please, if it gonna rain let their be lightning.
 
Speight on road, whiteout game against the Saquan / Moorhead PSU offense.

The coin flip 2016 OSU game

At Wisconsin by the time the defense was banged up and demoralized from lack of help from the offense and just got abused by the Wisconsin oline

That at ND opener this year which is clearly nothing to be ashamed of

Those results should not drive any decision making as it pertains to this Saturday.
 
Dantonio's record against Michigan, meanwhile, is also inflated. So a loss in 2016 in a season where everything went wrong, and many wins during years that were great for Sparty, then two rather insane wins
 
I think an ugly / slow first half with Michigan finding a way to get to 20 points and eventually separating is how this plays out. A butt ugly 20-9 type of game. From a pure talent and scheme perspective, MSU can only score points by accident this week.
 
Well the past two weeks now Sparty was able to score a touchdown on some trickeration. But great that's one touchdown and even that feels rather uncertain. I'm sure Michigan will focus on Felton Davis in the passing game but Davis is also a physical and athletic beast
 
Speight on road, whiteout game against the Saquan / Moorhead PSU offense.

The coin flip 2016 OSU game

At Wisconsin by the time the defense was banged up and demoralized from lack of help from the offense and just got abused by the Wisconsin oline

That at ND opener this year which is clearly nothing to be ashamed of

Those results should not drive any decision making as it pertains to this Saturday.

Exactly.

Narratives are gonna narrative.

It took till this past weekend for some heat to finally come to Franklin about his record versus the other 3 in the B1G Eastern Division.

You can look at every Michigan road loss in 3+ years again and have a different view unless you are trying create opinions...

At Utah was the first game and first game for Rudock. Sounds like this years Notre Dame game, doesn't it?

The Happy Valley massacre was a perfect blend of many things. even when it was 14-13, Michigan never really had a shot.

The loss at Iowa stung because of a very bad late call against UM that put them in FG range. The QB was hurt as well for us. But, that was a tightly called game as far as play selection. It should of never been down to the wire.

The Ohio State loss is what it is, stolen. Nothing more, nothing less. The better team did not win. Jim Delaney won that day, rotten piece of shit.

Wisconsin game was close enough to make a play and maybe win but another QB injury.

They just need to get over that proverbial hump. One week at a time, and no time like the present.
 
In Sparty's last pair of wins, they really held back. Hung on against Rutgers, scored 14 first quarter points vs Iowa then did nothing. This time around, they were really determined to beat PSU. Flying around on defense, couple trick plays on O, forcing fumbles on D. Just a very hard-fought game.
 
Well the past two weeks now Sparty was able to score a touchdown on some trickeration. But great that's one touchdown and even that feels rather uncertain. I'm sure Michigan will focus on Felton Davis in the passing game but Davis is also a physical and athletic beast
The key here is David Longs health. He did leave late in the game. I have read cramps to unknown at this point.
 
What's up with Rashan Gary?
He has been hurt for over a year now.

It is an AC issue with the shoulder. He has played through it to end last year and into this year. You'll never really know the extent of the injuries of guys at UM, that's just how it is, until way after the fact. Now, I had read some credible reports that he was going to be available last week more likely than not but that changed pretty quickly so him sitting out was pretty much known. He definitely wants to play this week, obviously.
 
And Chris Evans?
Chris played last week.

He was close to available versus Maryland but they waited one more week.

I am sure he is chomping at the bit too get in with Tru Wilson running very hard in relief. He is a great change of pace for them and I always wish they would find more creative ways to get him the ball in open space. Perhaps this week?
 
So opened at -5. I said to myself that -6.5 would really be inviting Michigan backers. Not sure like what goy was on this game but I wanted to think that the opening line would account for all the injuries throughout Sparty's offense, not to mention Josiah Scott
 
In Sparty's last pair of wins, they really held back. Hung on against Rutgers, scored 14 first quarter points vs Iowa then did nothing. This time around, they were really determined to beat PSU. Flying around on defense, couple trick plays on O, forcing fumbles on D. Just a very hard-fought game.
Yeah,

This was almost a signature Dantonio game for sure.

He knew he had the less talented team and is more banged up.

True to his word, they got back to running the football a bit. They cannot do a lot via the run but to keep some ball control etc is big.

Add in some trick plays and he had the GUTS to punt with 1:46 left and trust his defense.

Sparty Nation wants the OC gone bad and basically was wondering of Coach Mike is past his prime and now everything is joyous again.

That is Sparty Nation highs n lows in a nutshell.
 
What is the point of even having a big ten thread this week?
We'll be discussing the Big Ten in there.

This simply is for one game, is all.

I am sure no one wants to sift through 3-4 pages of this game talk to find anything noteworthy on other games.
 
I read a lot of complaints about Sparty play sequencing. Tbh I never thought much of it. But i'm also the only one in my bubble who watches Sparty, so maybe I should peruse the forums altho some Sparty fans on there seem really mean and simple-minded in a loud and annoying way.
But yea I just wanted to see Lewerke not throw a mile over the receiver's head and red zone entrances turn into touchdowns. I want to look into play sequencing
 
Do most people think of Sparty's playcalling as predictable? I mean, the o-line changes helped the run game, I don't think any changes in play calling tendencies did at all
 
Do most people think of Sparty's playcalling as predictable? I mean, the o-line changes helped the run game, I don't think any changes in play calling tendencies did at all

I think we are over-valuing the Penn State run defense because of the Ohio State game. Lets label that game 'adrenaline'. The Nittany Lions got gashed by freaking Illinois on the ground on that Friday night. They are not top tier with regards to run defense.

I wouldn't say Michigan State is predictable because they do run some interesting tricks/formations at times but generally they are behind the times of modern offense...

Which is what we say about Michigan quite a bit as well.
 
Michigan State changing to zone scheme Saturday made the oline look much better. Dantonio tried to save it for Michigan but couldn't after northwestern.
 
That is the one thing as well...

Lets look back at one of Hunts favorite eras...1970's Big Ten Football.

Coaches like Bo and Woody used to practice all year and even during other game weeks for The Game. That was their primary focus.

The same goes for MSU. I guarantee they have been working on this game since Shea became eligible. I bet they work on it every week and are saving whatever they can for the game. I guess that is why, at this point, I couldn't recommend a play on this game in any capacity.
 
You'd have to be crazy to bet Michigan - 7.5 at east lansing in their super bowl.. Jmo.

In this series Michigan state owns Michigan in last 11-12 years really. And they always feel like they need to prove something.

Michigan state lands that big punch early and just ground and pound to death.

Couple key guys back for msu too.
 
You'd have to be crazy to bet Michigan - 7.5 at east lansing in their super bowl.. Jmo.

In this series Michigan state owns Michigan in last 11-12 years really. And they always feel like they need to prove something.

Michigan state lands that big punch early and just ground and pound to death.

Couple key guys back for msu too.
Who have you heard is back for MSU?
 
That is the one thing as well...

Lets look back at one of Hunts favorite eras...1970's Big Ten Football.

Coaches like Bo and Woody used to practice all year and even during other game weeks for The Game. That was their primary focus.

The same goes for MSU. I guarantee they have been working on this game since Shea became eligible. I bet they work on it every week and are saving whatever they can for the game. I guess that is why, at this point, I couldn't recommend a play on this game in any capacity.


Mork will continue to focus on him beating Michigan per Mork.
 
Don‘t think it‘s clear at all who will be back for Sparty. O-line seems to be stabilizing finally but fate of a few receivers including darrell stewart up in the air
 
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