umpires

blackjack34

blackjack34

Pretty much a regular
I wanted to post this because I read what wiretowire said in his post and it made me think about my days as a minor league baseball umpire. And I didn't want to take over his thread with my thoughts.

I have seen a part of the game although at the minor league level that not many people get to see. I've seen pitchers paint the corners one day and the next time they are just missing. I've seen the hitters swing at pitches and crush them one day and the next day they miss those pitches...I've seen players hustle somedays and not hustle others...

I've umpired games that have lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes and I've umpired games that have lasted 3 hours and 45 minutes.
But I was always focused. It was my job and what I got paid for no matter if it was elvis andrus in the box or andrew mccutchen. Or if carlos carrasco was pitching or john lannon was pitching...I always did what I was paid to do. Which was call balls and strikes outs and safes and apply and interpret rules and keep the piece on the field.

I would rather every game be 1hour and 45 minutes that I umpired but they didn't happen often. If I tried changing things so all games went that fast I would not have been a professional umpire...

My point is. If you look for tendencies that one umpire is an over umpire or one umpire is an under umpire I can assure you that professional umpires call the game based on the rules and how the players play that day. Not based on where he is umpiring or who the home team is or what the over/under is set at. Umpires in the major leagues have went through a long and difficult "weeding out" process through the minor leagues and they would not be mlb umpires if they did not call the game according to correct strike zones and have a passion for getting everything correct out on the field.

I've worked with or instructed most of the new umpires working mlb games now and they aren't gamblers. They don't give a crap who wins and they are not fans. They want to be perfect at their job.
 
I have noticed that no one can guarantee much about the picks they make. But I can make a guarantee about one thing...umpires are not over or under umpires. Tedd barret, lance barret, dj reyburn,adam hamari,will little,jordan baker,jerry davis,dan iossongia...they are umpires they call the game the way its played. If you have found a pattern in the way the games they have turned out it isn't because they "think a certain thing about strike zone" or because they want the home team to win....its simply the way the games have been played....that I can guarantee
 
I respect your opinion, but you won't convince me that every umpire has the same strike zone. I don't believe they favor home or away teams, but I believe some certainly have smaller or wider zones.
 
You can take over my threads any time you want. My friends say I don't have anything useful in them anyway and those are my friends. GL :)
 
Dollaz said:
I respect your opinion, but you won't convince me that every umpire has the same strike zone. I don't believe they favor home or away teams, but I believe some certainly have smaller or wider zones.
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Agreed. No one is saying that the umpires care about who wins, or have any idea of the betting lines and totals on the games. It is quite evident though that some umpires have wider or smaller zones, and that over time, the results when they are behind the dish will be more slanted towards an over or an under result. The spreadsheets on this forum show which umps are over guys, and which ones are under guys. This also isn't to say that every single time an ump is behind the plate that the result will go with his tendencies, but more often than not, some will show a bias one way or the other.
 
You realize umpires are evaluated at the end of each game based on ques tech? And ques tech is exactly the same zone for every umpire. And they must get a very high score onevery plate job
 
No one who bets on the umps really looks at overs vs unders from an ump, it's more K%, whip, etc among other things. Of course drawing aces will make a difference, but there are certainly guys with smaller zones and some with larger zones, and that DOES make a difference over the course of time. The numbers bear it out, some guys give the corners and some don't, and they're often consistent in doing so.
 
Ok...some umpires give corners and others don't??????so you are referring to missing pitches? Or are you saying there are mlb umpires that don't call strikes on pitches that cross the inside corner and the outside corner?
 
blackjack, thanks for the perspective, very cool, very interesting.

I'm sorry to say you can't convince me either though. I've been sitting (almost) behind the plate for years at Tribe games, these guys have different strike zones. The players and former players talk about it all the time. They just want consistency during a game, they know the zone shifts a little from ump to ump.

Also, some of these umps are awful, and some like to be part of the show. No offense, I'm sure it's kind of a thankless task to officiate within earshot of a drunken tipyerbartender.
 
Dollaz said:
I respect your opinion, but you won't convince me that every umpire has the same strike zone. I don't believe they favor home or away teams, but I believe some certainly have smaller or wider zones.
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I'm not really sure how anybody can argue that umps have the same k zone.
 
additionally, based on the umpire's tendencies, that can also effect how a pitcher pitches, thus changing the result of the game. For example, when a pitcher feels that the umpire is not giving him the corners (because he has a smaller zone, or he sets up behind the catcher in a spot that doesn't give him best perspective of a pitch hitting the low outside corner (for example)), that pitcher will have to alter how they approach a batter. If their approach pre-game is to pitch this guy down and away and hit the corners there, but those pitches aren't being called strikes by a particular umpire on a particular day, he can't keep going there. He now needs to modify his pre-game approach to throwing the ball into a different zone to get a strike. If that particular hitter is a better low/inside hitter, and that is where the umpire is calling his strikes, the pitcher may need to alter his pre-game plan of where to pitch the guy. If it happens to coincide with that hitter's hot zone, the hitter has the advantage.
 
Tip......did you see the game the other night where ike davis was playing first for the pirates and had to stretch to reach a throw and the umpire called the runner safe and he waved his hands for the manager to come out and challenge the call cuz he was sure he was on the base. He was sure! Well they challenged it and he was clearly off the base.......the umpire made the correct call....but the player would have bet anything in the world he was on the base whenn he caught the ball.......he was wrong
 
Umpires are allways wrong in people eyes...they have a tight zone or they suck or whatever the case may be...a player saying something about umpires doesn't mean its true....umpires have a name for players......."rats" is the name...and the reason for that name is because it is star spelled backwards, because they all think they are stars.
 
blackjack34 said:
Tip......did you see the game the other night where ike davis was playing first for the pirates and had to stretch to reach a throw and the umpire called the runner safe and he waved his hands for the manager to come out and challenge the call cuz he was sure he was on the base. He was sure! Well they challenged it and he was clearly off the base.......the umpire made the correct call....but the player would have bet anything in the world he was on the base whenn he caught the ball.......he was wrong
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Didn't see the play, but sounds like replay worked. I think they're usually right and generally better at what they do than most credit them. The strike zones are slippery though. The more tenured umps have their own ideas of what a strike is. It often barely resembles the letter of the rule.
 
I would love to have an umpire training course for anyone that thinks a certain way about umpires. Then I could assign you tto umpire a few games and you would btotally change how you thought abouut umpires forever.
 
blackjack34 said:
Umpires are allways wrong in people eyes...they have a tight zone or they suck or whatever the case may be...a player saying something about umpires doesn't mean its true....umpires have a name for players......."rats" is the name...and the reason for that name is because it is star spelled backwards, because they all think they are stars.
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No one likes a whiner. Umps included.
 
blackjack34 said:
I would love to have an umpire training course for anyone that thinks a certain way about umpires. Then I could assign you tto umpire a few games and you would btotally change how you thought abouut umpires forever.
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Not the cushy job I'm looking for.
 
First off.....all umpires call pitches in the same position. They may have different stances but it is important to set up exactly the same so you see all pitches the same.
 
blackjack34 said:
I would love to have an umpire training course for anyone that thinks a certain way about umpires. Then I could assign you tto umpire a few games and you would btotally change how you thought abouut umpires forever.
Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't. People aren't bashing umpires in here, I personally think MLB umps get it right way more often than any other officials in every other sport. We're simply saying that MLB umps have different zones when behind the dish....and the numbers over years and years seem to bear that out quite easily.
 
Is this a thread just ranting about umpire treatment? If so, carry on. Anyone knows they are human and differ from one another, thankfully.
 
blackjack, they're not robots. I'm sure two heart surgeons don't cut into the left ventricle in the exact same way either.

(Sorry in advance if that comparison sucks. Know nothing about heart surgery or ventricles.)
 
I had a few players that thought I sucked as an umpire...one of their names was eli iorg...but most players never said anything bad to me. And greeted me politely actually. But if you asked eli I was complete horseshit...despite me being ranked at the top every level I went to....its the guys like eli that say bull and people believe it
 
blackjack34 said:
First off.....all umpires call pitches in the same position. They may have different stances but it is important to set up exactly the same so you see all pitches the same.
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Yes they do. Some are taller than others though, some may have a tendency to give a pitcher a little bit more on the inside/outside corner. Sure they all see all pitches the same, but they do not call them the same.
 
blackjack34 said:
I had a few players that thought I sucked as an umpire...one of their names was eli iorg...but most players never said anything bad to me. And greeted me politely actually. But if you asked eli I was complete horseshit...despite me being ranked at the top every level I went to....its the guys like eli that say bull and people believe it
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I don't doubt this....but again this isn't what anyone in here is saying. No one is taking the word of a player or manager and saying "that ump sucks," or anything like that. There is a spreadsheet that has documented each umpire and their tendencies for the past few years (if not longer).....and that spreadsheet says that certain umpires have certain tendencies. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Here is what I'm saying....I had the exact training I worked with the guys in mlb I taught at umpire school......they all set up in the exact same spot
 
I just happen to have held on to an essay I got my hands on years ago. It's called ...

"The Problem with Umpires" by Eli Iorg
 
blackjack34 said:
Here is what I'm saying....I had the exact training I worked with the guys in mlb I taught at umpire school......they all set up in the exact same spot
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And no one is arguing differently. Setting up and calling balls/strikes are 2 different things though. They do NOT all call balls/strikes the same....the numbers clearly say otherwise.
 
Ques tech however its spelled yes.....id slinging pizza at same time I responding sorry for any spelling errors that may okurr
 
Billy ripken said to me one time"I hate it when umpires call different zones for different players". He was serious.....sorry billy umpires don't do that....but billy thinks they do. Must be true
 
Thanks, blackjack, not often you get the ump's eye view on the topic. Good stuff.
 
Nothing but respect for you and your opinion but I may disagree a little. As human beings we all have certain tendencies, some of which we are conscious of and others, which we are not. I honestly believe that some umpires may have a slightly different strike zone (whether it be 1/8th inch higher or lower or inside or out). Some personalities subconsciously may be more inclined to a called 3rd strike which is questionable and controversial while others may not. That doesn't mean any umpires is fairer than the next. Actually, IMO, as long as an umpire is consistent, that is all you can ask for. There has to be some sound reasoning why through a whole season, one umpire can have a 65.5% strike rate while another may have 61%. There has to be a reason why one umpire has a 27-4 OVER record while another has a 22-9 UNDER record. It is not totally random and I don't think it's necessarily conscious. We all have different personalities. Some with stronger personalities may be more inclined to describe something one way while another with a different personality can explain the exact same fact differently. I think it is the same with umpiring. Major league hitters know there are a few umpires with more generous strike zones and some with stingier ones. So I don't think an umpire necessarily has an off day or does something inconsistent. I just feel there are certain inherent characteristics that are subconscious and may lead to results that may be slightly more skewed in a certain direction. Again, nothing but respect for your opinion and contribution. I am not saying I am right. It's just my opinion.
 
Not only do umps have different zones than one another but certain pitchers do well w/ certain umps and certain pitchers are horrible w/ certain umps, coincidence? No. As an ump you know you would prefer for a game to move along, a pitcher that's working fast and throwing strikes will get calls, also. The fact that you are taking this personal is crazy and the fact that you are name dropping means you were definitely an "ego" ump.
 
I'm not taking anything personally. But I've never heard a perspective from a professional umpire in a gambling thread before. I just have info that no one on here does and I thought I would share. The reason I name players is to maybe apeal to a fans mind about the experiences I have had. I did not believe I was something special. I took great pride in being approachable as an umpire. I did not portray any ego on the field. But people are gonna say what they want.
 
blackjack34 said:
Thanks for the replies.....I'm just saying.....maybe the ques tech machine prefers unders too...
Click to expand...

I haven't read through whole thread yet, but have you looked at Brooks baseball data? I don't see how anyone can explain that data and conclude that every umpires zone is the same.
 
kjohnson109 said:
No one who bets on the umps really looks at overs vs unders from an ump, it's more K%, whip, etc among other things. Of course drawing aces will make a difference, but there are certainly guys with smaller zones and some with larger zones, and that DOES make a difference over the course of time. The numbers bear it out, some guys give the corners and some don't, and they're often consistent in doing so.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If I have an ump with a tight zone, I'm not going to play the inferior pitcher very often. Im going to look at the guy that gets swings and misses and fade or pass on the "Jamie Moyer" types.
 







2 strike zone maps, same pitcher, 2 different umpires. Both games by Wood. Notice the map on the first one with Eddings behind the plate. Anything close to the zone is a strike, there are no questions about it.
 
Black Jack.. read your PM, "ego ump" was just a joke, don't take it personal..i'm just being the class clown. I DON'T THINK UMPS CHEAT OR FIX GAMES, but i believe what i believe about the rest..nothing more to add.
 
blackjack34 said:
First off.....all umpires call pitches in the same position. They may have different stances but it is important to set up exactly the same so you see all pitches the same.
Click to expand...

some are on the inside shoulder, some not. Some like low pitches, some not. Some punish catchers for reaching back, some give strikes a ball off the plate as long as it hits the glove

Welcome to the site, but you're in the wrong place to try and convince us
 
I have been at the site for a year. The things I am saying are what umpires are taught.....has anyone been behing the plate to umpire a game and a pitcher throwing 98 mph fastball before? Cuz I have. There are many things that go into being a professional umpire. And it is not an easy job. I can promise everyone that reads this all umpires set up on the inside corner of the plate with their head height just above the catchers head. The only time that varies is when the catcher sets up inside. And in that circumstance you will see the umpire rais his head height up. There are a few reasons why an umpire positions himself in that position. It is critical to see every pitch from the same viewpoint. A good catcher can make a borderline pitch llook great and a bad catcher can make a borderline pitch look terrible.
 
In the old days each umpire did have somewhat different zone. Especially american and national league umpires called different zones. Now that every umpire works both national and american league games and that powers that be said strike zone is clearly defined and is to be called that way. It has become uniform. Umpires mitch pitches they are calling over 300 pitches per night. Even missing only 10% would be missing 30 pitches...umpires are not robots and they all miss pitches in different locations. But the strike zone "hollow of the knee to half way between the batters shoulders and his waist when he is in a hitting positionover the plate is to be called a strike". Catchers can affect how an umpire is able to see a pitch too. I haven't heard anyone say anything about that.
 
If a catcher is set up inside and the pitchers throws one that is over the outside corner that pitch is gonna be called a ball usually. And there are several reasons for that. One being perception of the players and managers....sure it may be a strike but if you call that pitch a strike you are gonna run into a situation where a catcher is set up on the outer third of the plate reaches outside for a pitch that is off the plate by 5 inches and clearly a ball. But the players and managers have seen you call that pitch that the catcher reaches across his body for a strike on previous pitches and they are gonna mutherfuck you and you will have a shithouse on your hands.
 
I'm was not trying to convince anyone of anything. Rather I wanted to point out. That umpires especially the ones in the league the last ten years do things the same way as far as strike zone and getting every pitch correct is all of their goals.
 
When I watch a baseball game I watch the umpires. I think everyone should try that for just one inning. Watcher where they set up. Look at their head height. Pay attention to their timing. See where the catcher sets up compared to where the umpire sets up. Watch how that catcher receives the ball. Watch how the catcher receives the ball on close pitches. And watch how he receives the ball on pitches that are obvious balls. If you haven't umpired you probably haven't paid much attention to those things. People say things about umpires all the time and most of the things are negative. But it is important to remember that umpires are like actors they are simply playing a role. If you do not act a certain way these players and managers will bury you. And the mlb umpires have to act a certain way on the field which may not be how they are in their "real" lives but they are playing a role
 
It is imposible to describe to someone who hasent been through it so they understand. And I have a great passion for umpiring and that craft. I hope everyone has a great day.
 
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