Royals open at -120 WORLD SERIES Discussion
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nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
KC has the experience, the HFA, and the bad taste in their mouth from LY.
IMO the mets have the three best starters from both teams combined.
KC has the better overall bullpen. Closers are close to even but I'd take familia
KC has more speed and a better overall lineup IMO. The mets hitters can be very good but there can be some auto outs if they wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Some very inconsistent guys
IMO the mets have the three best starters from both teams combined.
KC has the better overall bullpen. Closers are close to even but I'd take familia
KC has more speed and a better overall lineup IMO. The mets hitters can be very good but there can be some auto outs if they wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Some very inconsistent guys
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dudleysdad
Guest
KC never dies
Mike fucking Myers
And it's Halloween
Bet KC
Mike fucking Myers
And it's Halloween
Bet KC
Canes1
Pretty much a regular
They have been pitching that way all year. They are going fall apart bc it's the World Series?
Redscot
Pretty much a regular
Lifetime Mets fan here, and agree on all points. One other aspect that concerns me in a series where the "little things" may make the difference is the Mets middle infield defense. Flores/Murph is definitely shaky and could prove costly. No tejada for D replacement either. At least we are looking at RH starters for KC, so Collins will not be tempted in putting Cuddyer out in left, a further D liability in a spacious OF. Colon and Niese gonna have to offer some bridge work too, to get to back end of BP where Clippard has hardly been lights out...
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
The mets starting pitching is frightening but who knows what the world series pressure will do to them. Their poise has been amazing though.
And the mets have already beat some of the best pitchers in the majors so far this postseason.
Terry Collins & Kevin Long have been fantastic
If Lucas Duda woke up in game 4, the royals are in trouble imo.
And the mets have already beat some of the best pitchers in the majors so far this postseason.
Terry Collins & Kevin Long have been fantastic
If Lucas Duda woke up in game 4, the royals are in trouble imo.
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
fwiw
I looked up WS history for the stats from instances where teams have made consecutive WS appearances. I haven't included 2 subgroups from this designation -
(1) Those instances involving teams who, in playing in consecutive WS, were at the same time involved in their 2nd-3rd, 3rd-4th or 4th-5th straight WS appearances (i.e. the Yankees made 4 straight WS from 98-99-00-01 which presents 3 instances of their playing in consecutive WS, but here I've only included their 98-99 stats - their first instance in that sequence of consecutive WS appearances - since it's the only situation from that sequence which mirrors KC's present feat).
(2) Those instances (8) involving teams who faced the same opponent in their consecutive WS appearances. A logical omission to make, since the psychological dynamic of familiarity (tied to whether a team won or lost to said opponent) is surely different to facing a completely new opponent.
So, the above omissions established leaves us 24 instances of teams appearing in consecutive WS (I've shaded in grey the stats that don't mirror KC's spot, but include for the sake of comparison)...
- Teams have gone 10-4 in their second straight WS when they have HFA.
- Teams have gone 5-5 in their second straight WS when they lack HFA.
- Teams have gone 5-2 when they won the WS then had HFA the next year.
- Teams have gone 5-2 when they lost the WS then had HFA the next year.
- The length of a team's second straight WS following a 7-game WS the year before:
4 games: 3 instances (record 2-1: loser had HFA)
5 games: 1 instance (record 1-0)
6 games: 2 instances (record 1-1: loser had HFA)
7 games: 2 instances (record 1-1: loser didn't have HFA)
- Teams have gone 3-1 in the WS after losing game 7 in the WS the year before.
The only team of the 4 here to not play with HFA was the only one to win the WS with a sweep.
- Kansas City is only the third team to ever play in consecutive WS & have HFA advantage for both. The other previous teams to manage the feat (Cubs in 1906-07 & Tigers in 1934-35) both lost their first WS appearance (in 6 & 7 games respectively) and then won their subsequent WS appearance; both managing the latter without losing a single game (the Cubs did tie a game).
I looked up WS history for the stats from instances where teams have made consecutive WS appearances. I haven't included 2 subgroups from this designation -
(1) Those instances involving teams who, in playing in consecutive WS, were at the same time involved in their 2nd-3rd, 3rd-4th or 4th-5th straight WS appearances (i.e. the Yankees made 4 straight WS from 98-99-00-01 which presents 3 instances of their playing in consecutive WS, but here I've only included their 98-99 stats - their first instance in that sequence of consecutive WS appearances - since it's the only situation from that sequence which mirrors KC's present feat).
(2) Those instances (8) involving teams who faced the same opponent in their consecutive WS appearances. A logical omission to make, since the psychological dynamic of familiarity (tied to whether a team won or lost to said opponent) is surely different to facing a completely new opponent.
So, the above omissions established leaves us 24 instances of teams appearing in consecutive WS (I've shaded in grey the stats that don't mirror KC's spot, but include for the sake of comparison)...
- Teams have gone 10-4 in their second straight WS when they have HFA.
- Teams have gone 5-5 in their second straight WS when they lack HFA.
- Teams have gone 5-2 when they won the WS then had HFA the next year.
- Teams have gone 5-2 when they lost the WS then had HFA the next year.
- The length of a team's second straight WS following a 7-game WS the year before:
4 games: 3 instances (record 2-1: loser had HFA)
5 games: 1 instance (record 1-0)
6 games: 2 instances (record 1-1: loser had HFA)
7 games: 2 instances (record 1-1: loser didn't have HFA)
- Teams have gone 3-1 in the WS after losing game 7 in the WS the year before.
The only team of the 4 here to not play with HFA was the only one to win the WS with a sweep.
- Kansas City is only the third team to ever play in consecutive WS & have HFA advantage for both. The other previous teams to manage the feat (Cubs in 1906-07 & Tigers in 1934-35) both lost their first WS appearance (in 6 & 7 games respectively) and then won their subsequent WS appearance; both managing the latter without losing a single game (the Cubs did tie a game).
Redscot
Pretty much a regular
Again, biggest concern on my part as a Mets fan is the middle infield. Suspect range and error prone. It will matter in this series, no doubt in my mind. The whiff happy cubs against RHP were #1 in K% this season at 24%, who is on the flip side of that equation....you got it K.C.; finished last at 16.3% (15.9% if including LHP). Add to that K.C. also does not walk a lot, bottom 4 (1st if including LHP) in league, so pressure will be put on the Mets to field effectively, turn 2, etc. I don{t think the Mets are gonna blast their way through K.C., especially in Kaufmann, so the little things may play big in this series.
cashflowmatters
Where the cash flows, matters
I think KC hitters will have much better at bats vs Mets pitchers than that of the Dodgers & Cubs. Should be a great series
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
In the future, please spell it out when you're not talking badminton in the World Series thread.
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Lareux
Guest
If playoff experience is valuable in one sport, it would seem to follow that it'd be valuable in every sport. Not sure why you'd think it's valuable in one sport but not another. I tend to agree that it's pretty overrated to begin with, but I think there is something to be said for experience...just not nearly as much as some people want to put on it.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Never saw an athlete leverage his experience more than badminton legend, Flipper McCoy.
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Lareux
Guest
Don't forget Aces McGee. That dude had a serve rivaled by none..and he just stepped it up after that first postseason where he just kept double faulting and bowed out early.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Badminton greats aside, hard for me to bet against KC in this series. Haven't quite decided, been going game-by-game in the playoffs, but looks like they're -105 or a pick now. Tempting. Think the layoff favors them a bit too.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
Whats the last NBA team that came out of nowhere to go from not being a playoff team to winning the NBA championship in less than 3 years?
ArizonaKid
Pretty much a regular
ArizonaKid
Pretty much a regular
Golden State just did it in 3 years.
outside of LeBron the Cavs had minimal playoff experience yet made the Finals.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
It's a good point. I can't really think of any recently. I mean, Golden State was already pretty good. Usually the NFL teams and the NBA teams have to knock on the door a little bit before a title, especially the NBA.
Saw something about the last five WS teams to start two rookie pitchers were 4-1 in the series. Not sure how far that goes back.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
"Outside of Lebron" is a pretty big exception.
TheHbomb
Pretty much a regular
Look no further than these playoffs to see how meaningless experience in MLB. Mets beat 2 CY Young winners with multiple years of playoff experience with a bunch of kids. Cubs beat a team with loads of experience with a bunch of kids. It's only when the team with experience wins, that we hear the inevitable, "their experience is invaluable." KC is a good team, but let's not get crazy with their experience factor. They did the same exact thing last year with zero experience.
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
Yes, the last several years in baseball, it's just best to be hot.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
The NBA also has more teams make the playoffs than baseball and football. Much easier to make the playoffs in the NBA but time and time again you see teams have to go through a learning process of being able to play together. Baseball doesn't really require a team to have that much chemistry on the field with each other outside of fielding. In bases the hot team with the hot pitching is the team who usually goes all the way. The NBA it's not that simple
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tipyerbartender1
Guest
It's almost a reason they should cut the NBA playoffs in half. That first round produces more injuries than upsets or intrigue.
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Lareux
Guest
That doesn't necessarily mean that 'experience' is what ended up winning it for them. More than likely, they got better and other teams got a little worse. How many teams have the same players for 3+ years that their 'experience' from their previous playoff appearances matters that much?
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Lareux
Guest
Well, it's just simple in a different way. How many teams win a title in the NBA without having the most 'superstars' on their team, or having at least 2 or 3 of them? Talent wins in the NBA way more often than it does not. We can easily find a handful of teams that make the playoffs every year, and have for 3-5 years in a row, and honestly have nothing more than a slim chance to win the title. Their 'experience' certainly isn't what's getting them over the top.
GWarner27
Meatballin' in Celtics Stadium
Agree
Sad I missed NYM as a dog, pretty big faves now right? And we have Harvey, deGrom, Thor, Matz but no KC rotation yet?
Massive and can not be understated
KC catches the ball better than anyone, concerned about the middle infield but the mets were playing lights out ball and have a huge advantage in the rotation and clippard to familia isn't as far behind Herrera-Davis as most would think. Yost also pretty much refuses to change so I wonder if he sticks with Madson in the 8th or swaps him and Herrera instead of putting Hochevar in there like he should. If I'm backing NYM as I want to be, I hope he does
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
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Lareux
Guest
How do the Mets win the coaching/managing department hands down? Ned Yost may make some odd decisions at times, but he's a pretty damn solid MLB manager. Collins was on the chopping block just 3 months ago, and while I like him as a coach back from when he was here at our Buffalo AAA affiliate for quite some time, I disagree that he's better than Yost, let alone head and shoulders above him. What is this being based on? Neither of them are really anywhere near the top of the best managers in the league...they're pretty much about the same level imo.
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Lareux
Guest
As are you. I'm just asking for some type of proof from the recent past where a team gained significant experience and won a title because of it. GS did it in less than 3 years, so they can't fit that mold...others were using them as an example of not having that experience.
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Lareux
Guest
Yep, should be a good one. Old fashioned pitching and manufacturing runs.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
First of all....GS did not do it in less than 3 years. They did it in 3 years.
Second of all.... The entire discussion was in regards to the statement that "experience is overrated". Saying stuff like that is nice and cute but there is nothing to back it up. What does that even mean? The Warriors did not simply go to the playoffs and win a championship. They had to go through the process. What I mean by experience is that they first had to lose in order to learn how to win. If the Warriors did not have the experience of losing with Mark Jackson, they wouldn't have extra motivation to succeed. Losing builds team chemistry because athletes learn from failure and come together to overcome the obstacle. IMO the playoff experience of the coach and team chemistry is the most important factor for an NBA team to win a championship. It's not just the players experience that matters.
GWarner27
Meatballin' in Celtics Stadium
when was Collins on the chopping block?
Yost bringing in Madson for the 8th in g6 should have signed, sealed and delivered the fact that Collins is superior to any non-believers. He's widely criticized for having no reasoning behind what he does with lineups and for trusting guys too much who clearly aren't effective anymore (Madson, Ryan). I've been impressed by Collins since he took the job more than i have not been
BetCrimes1984
CTG Big Brother
All other considerations aside, the Mets win this series imo if they avoid losing any game late, something KC managed twice against both Houston & Toronto (had either of those teams had a bullpen worth it's salt, KC wouldn't be here).
KC's late runs have been the fundamental foundation their WS run has been built on. They've needed late runs because their starters leave so much to be desired.
KC's late runs have been the fundamental foundation their WS run has been built on. They've needed late runs because their starters leave so much to be desired.
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Lareux
Guest
But the opposite can also be said to be true...there is nothing to back up saying that experience is THAT important. By saying something is 'overrated' doesn't mean, in the least bit, that it is not valuable. It means that it's OVER rated...it's made too much of, people put too much stock in it. You certainly cannot say that there is proof, beyond any doubt, that experience is any more important than talent, coaching, or many other factors.
In this world where everything has to be the best or the worst, and people like you like to talk in such superlatives, there are many, many, many things that are 'overrated' these days. Playoff experience is one of them.
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Lareux
Guest
From 2014, to the beginning of this season, probably right through about end of June or so. Lots of NY sports options being in Buffalo, and you heard an awful lot of "the Mets need to get rid of Collins," wherever you watched/listened/read. They even mentioned it in one of the LCS games, pretty sure it was right after they swept Chicago. Close up of Collins celebrating, and whomever it was mentioned that "he's only 3 to 4 months removed from talk of him being fired, and now here he is on his way to a WS..."
Agree to disagree about the managers. Yost is widely criticized by writers and bloggers...yet what he's been doing has been working very well for his team. He didn't manage the same way when he was in Milwaukee, seems he manages to his talent. Almost every single manager can be, has been, and will be criticized for how they handle a bullpen....some make more mistakes than others...here's Yost 2 years in a row in the WS, he must be doing something right. And I'm not saying Yost is a great manager, or even better than Collins. But to insinuate that Collins is "head and shoulders" above Yost is just that whole talking in superlatives thing I just mentioned where everything/everyone is either the best or the worst at everything.
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