jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Yikes.
Let's talk lockout...
- Thread starter B.A.R.
- Start date
Yikes.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
For the uninitiated, the CBT is a levy on team payrolls that exceed certain thresholds. The higher you go and the more often you're a "repeat offender," the harsher those penalties are. In practice, it's become a semi-hard salary cap in MLB. That, of course, is by design. The point of payroll restrictions is to reduce labor costs and by extension increase owner profit margins. It's not to promote competitive balance or to provide "some semblance of a level playing field among clubs."
That's not entirely surprising since MLB doesn't have a competitive balance problem, and there's no correlation between market size and on-field success in MLB (both before and after the implementation of the CBT). Manfred continues to mischaracterize the purpose of the CBT, which, again, is to drag down player salaries, because too many rank-and-file fans and even media members believe that the CBT and similar concoctions have anything at all to do with competitive balance. As for the increases he touts, they don't begin to keep pace with revenue growth in the league.
That's not entirely surprising since MLB doesn't have a competitive balance problem, and there's no correlation between market size and on-field success in MLB (both before and after the implementation of the CBT). Manfred continues to mischaracterize the purpose of the CBT, which, again, is to drag down player salaries, because too many rank-and-file fans and even media members believe that the CBT and similar concoctions have anything at all to do with competitive balance. As for the increases he touts, they don't begin to keep pace with revenue growth in the league.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
This is, to put it charitably, curious coming from Manfred. Implicit in these particular remarks is that because the owner side made the last suite of proposals, it's now the players turn to do so. In a vacuum, that would be an eminently reasonable position, but it's quite at odds with Manfred's tortured framing from earlier in the lockout.
You'll recall that the owners implemented the lockout on Dec. 2 in order to, in Manfred's words, "… jumpstart the negotiations and get us to an agreement that will allow the season to start on time."
At the time of the lockout, the players had made the last proposal and did so more than a full day before the CBA expired and MLB's lockout began. The league then dawdled for 43 days before at last making its own revised proposal. Manfred's rationale for wasting all those precious days and making a compromised 2022 season much more likely? "In terms of any delay in the process, that's a mutual responsibility of the bargaining parties," he said. "Phones work two ways."
This, of course, is in acute contrast to what he suggested on Tuesday. Now, it's the players' turn because the owners went last. It seems rationale changes, quite conveniently, when the league isn't playing a stall game.
2daBank
Voice of Reason
I saw something like each team gets over 110 mil in revenue sharing. Think it been proven you can compete with a payroll in the 150-170 mil range, I’m wit you, the problem is some these prick owners choose to pocket the money instead of reinvest! Damn sure dont think the teams willing to spend are the problem, and when last time Yankees won anything? Lad has got all of one championship (in a goofy shortened, fluky ass year with no home field none the less!)? They not exactly buying rings!! The problem the shit teams who pocketing money, not the ones spending!
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
If the Brewers for example are just swimming in cash why did they have to trade two decent prospects just to get rid of the contract of Jackie Bradley. Sorry but I'm not buying the nonsense that the small market teams are just pocketing the money and not trying to compete as I'm fairly certain that my team does all it can to win but just can't carry the payroll of the big market teams and therefore is always at a big disadvantage.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Maybe, just maybe, the owner and/or people in the Brewers front office are morons. I know, so hard to believe.
I’m not sure what you mean by you don’t buy it…you can look up what teams get in luxury tax payouts and then look up what their total salary is, for any team you’d like. You can look up what any teams revenue was (outside of luxury tax payments) for any given year, and again look at the team’s overall salary payout to put the picture together.
The Brewers may not fit in that group, but to just act like incompetent front offices don’t exist is comical. Especially given the numerous front offices you, yourself, take to task seemingly every week or so.
It seems you’re letting emotion, as opposed to evidence, sway your opinion. The figures are all out there for you to research.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
If you think the Brewers front office is incompetent you clearly don't watch much baseball.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
I'm siding with wanting a salary cap so every team has a chance to win.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
When the big market payrolls are 2-3 times the size of the small markets you don't have true competitive balance.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
I didn’t say I think they are. I proposed that it was possible. You went from using the Orioles as an example to the Brewers and questioned why they had to trade 2 prospects if they are “swimming in cash.” Nobody said they were swimming in cash to begin with, so not only have you switched teams from a team with a payroll under 30M to the Brewers, you’ve added a layer and statement that never existed.
For fuck’s sake I even said “the Brewers may not fit in that group, but…”
It’s almost like you didn’t even read my comment, because I have no idea how your takeaway was that I think the Brewers front office is anything, I simply used the example YOU provided and asked questions.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
But again, the data is out there that proves this wrong. I’ve linked a few sources in this thread for you to check out. If you haven’t even looked at the data and analysis, how can you continue claiming this? It’s really odd.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
As an example, let’s say they make a hard cap at 200 million. Some teams will still be only spending 30-40 million. How will that change anything that you’re imagining is happening now? The same problem (that you perceive) will exist will it not?
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
My point was that the Brewers made one bad free agent signing which wasn't even for that big of a contract and they had to trade away two good prospects just to get the money off the payroll. The Brewers are clearly not cleaning up financially despite drawing big crowds and having a below average payroll.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
I'm fine with payrolls having to reach a certain level for the small markets as long as its accompanied by a hard cap.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
If you have a great front office like Tampa you can compete by drafting and developing better than everyone else but they are an anomaly. For the most part the big market teams make the playoffs every year while most small markets get a 2-3 year window at times when their talent is cheap. In the NFL every team has the same chances of success.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Except the actual statistics, which it seems you still haven't decided to look at, prove this to be incorrect.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
The rest of his tweet thread...
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Milwaukee Brewers revenue 2024 | Statista
In 2024, the revenue of Milwaukee Brewers amounted to 320 million U.S.
www.statista.com
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
I'm pretty sure that chart above doesn't include the luxury tax money (I guess that's baked into the revenue sharing) they receive each year. So, it seems pretty clear they are not hurting for money and if they choose to have the payroll they do, there must be a reason. It isn't because they're strapped for cash though, would you agree?
The Brewers also spend LESS than the league average on salary. They have 84 million in room before hitting the luxury tax...the league average is 69 million. Those figures are for 2022, you can visit the link and change the year to go back and see historical data. The Brewers, for every year I've looked at so far, have ALWAYS been under the league average on salary. Any ideas as to why?
www.spotrac.com
The Brewers also spend LESS than the league average on salary. They have 84 million in room before hitting the luxury tax...the league average is 69 million. Those figures are for 2022, you can visit the link and change the year to go back and see historical data. The Brewers, for every year I've looked at so far, have ALWAYS been under the league average on salary. Any ideas as to why?
2024 MLB Team Tax Tracker
A real-time look at the 2024 tax totals for each MLB team, including estimated tax space.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
The Brewers play in the smallest market in baseball and therefore have amongst the lowest local tv deals in the sport. That explains why they have the payroll constraints that they have but you can keep believing that they are competing on an even playing field with the likes of the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox.I'm pretty sure that chart above doesn't include the luxury tax money (I guess that's baked into the revenue sharing) they receive each year. So, it seems pretty clear they are not hurting for money and if they choose to have the payroll they do, there must be a reason. It isn't because they're strapped for cash though, would you agree?
The Brewers also spend LESS than the league average on salary. They have 84 million in room before hitting the luxury tax...the league average is 69 million. Those figures are for 2022, you can visit the link and change the year to go back and see historical data. The Brewers, for every year I've looked at so far, have ALWAYS been under the league average on salary. Any ideas as to why?
2024 MLB Team Tax Tracker
A real-time look at the 2024 tax totals for each MLB team, including estimated tax space.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
Before anyone calls me a small market shill it should be noted that my other teams are all large markets teams and I am still in favor of caps in the NFL and NHL as well as MLB where my team would directly benefit vs the other sports where my teams are hindered by salary constraints.
2daBank
Voice of Reason
Something clearly don’t add up, their opening day payroll last year was 99 mil, each team got over 110 mil in revenue sharing (plus they keep so much of their own stuff on top of that, I dunno exact figures, don’t care enough to look it all up). By my math that means someone pocketing money. Dunno what we mean by “had to trade” those guys to get under a certain payroll? Had ti according to whom? Prob the guy pulling in profit. Not to mention the value of the teams continue to rise so it comical when they try to pretend they losing money, whether they showing a profit in a given year or not is incredibly deceptive when the team they paid whatever for continues to be valued higher every year.
2daBank
Voice of Reason
I'm pretty sure that chart above doesn't include the luxury tax money (I guess that's baked into the revenue sharing) they receive each year. So, it seems pretty clear they are not hurting for money and if they choose to have the payroll they do, there must be a reason. It isn't because they're strapped for cash though, would you agree?
The Brewers also spend LESS than the league average on salary. They have 84 million in room before hitting the luxury tax...the league average is 69 million. Those figures are for 2022, you can visit the link and change the year to go back and see historical data. The Brewers, for every year I've looked at so far, have ALWAYS been under the league average on salary. Any ideas as to why?
2024 MLB Team Tax Tracker
A real-time look at the 2024 tax totals for each MLB team, including estimated tax space.
As I said above the biggest crock is when they try to say they operating in red cause they damn sure not including the fact their franchise has skyrocketed in value compared to what each owner paid for their respective team. Even if they take some type of “loss” in a given year (which I don’t really believe anyways). it way more than compensated for by the net gain from value of franchise going up. Owners are the most disingenuous liars there are, it crazy to me they somehow get normal ppl to side with them over the players.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
Yeah the Brewers have definitely been mediocre the last few years.
2daBank
Voice of Reason
More like average.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
Ha ha the players are rejecting the deal on the table because they are against an international draft. Really can't wait to hear how this lockout is on anyone but the players at this point.
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
Yes clearly the Brewers and other small markets can afford the same payroll as the yankees and dodgers.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Well, since that’s not exactly true, it’s no surprise you still incorrectly claim the players are at fault.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Nobody made that claim. The league isn’t even pushing for a salary cap anyway, they’re still simply arguing about where the luxury tax threshold should be.
But, let’s use your logic of a salary cap. What is the number you’re thinking? Was it somewhere around 200 million? The luxury cap threshold is currently at 210 million. Given that, explain how instituting a salary cap would suddenly see small market teams being able to spend more than they do now. What would change on their end? The only thing that seemingly would happen, is the small market teams would no longer get a cut of luxury tax penalty payments as they wouldn’t exist anymore.
I’m really struggling to understand how the small market teams would suddenly be “able to compete” better with a salary cap, seeing as how they aren’t spending the money already, even though they’re literally getting free money from the big spenders.
Explain it, maybe you can sway someone’s thoughts.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
If the end of February was arbitrary, 5 p.m. on the first day of March was even more so. If the team owners truly thought they were close to offering something acceptable and committed to closing out the process in a matter of hours, they would be eager to see it through and save the season.
Instead, shortly before 3 p.m., MLB told players and media that it would be making its best and final offer before the deadline. The implication could not have been anything else: Take it, or opening day gets the axe.
From a purely practical standpoint then, the players figured why bother countering. This was the best MLB was prepared to do, and they didn’t like it.
About two hours later, Manfred faced the cameras and told the baseball world that the season would not start on time. The union had refused to fold under the franchise owners' threats.
Pressed on his tactics by Yahoo Sports, he immediately denied them.
“I think that ‘take it or leave it’ in a negotiation is not something that is usually productive,” Manfred said. “Always at the end, there's a little wiggle room somewhere.”
He said that! Into a microphone! Just a few not so subtle words away from confessing that the league is always lowballing. Never accept the latest offer from Rob Manfred, just ask Rob Manfred.
He said this was while it was still daylight on the day of the deadline he set.
Manfred had been careful to explain that the league never said “last, best and final” (the union strenuously disagreed) because that would have indicated a legally fraught impasse. The alternative, though, meant admitting that team owners had shut down negotiations mere hours after expressing optimism that a deal was in reach and canceled opening day knowing the players would have been fools to take what they were offered at the time.
Instead, shortly before 3 p.m., MLB told players and media that it would be making its best and final offer before the deadline. The implication could not have been anything else: Take it, or opening day gets the axe.
From a purely practical standpoint then, the players figured why bother countering. This was the best MLB was prepared to do, and they didn’t like it.
About two hours later, Manfred faced the cameras and told the baseball world that the season would not start on time. The union had refused to fold under the franchise owners' threats.
Pressed on his tactics by Yahoo Sports, he immediately denied them.
“I think that ‘take it or leave it’ in a negotiation is not something that is usually productive,” Manfred said. “Always at the end, there's a little wiggle room somewhere.”
He said that! Into a microphone! Just a few not so subtle words away from confessing that the league is always lowballing. Never accept the latest offer from Rob Manfred, just ask Rob Manfred.
He said this was while it was still daylight on the day of the deadline he set.
Manfred had been careful to explain that the league never said “last, best and final” (the union strenuously disagreed) because that would have indicated a legally fraught impasse. The alternative, though, meant admitting that team owners had shut down negotiations mere hours after expressing optimism that a deal was in reach and canceled opening day knowing the players would have been fools to take what they were offered at the time.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
Brewers888
Potential 2028 V.P. Selection
The thought that Lindor and Scherzer care about the middling player or amateur is quite funny.
jedi ninja
Larry the liberal
You’re lost in the sauce dude.
