I'm trying to gauge CTG's level of respect for Lebron's game...

IvyinBarondise

IvyinBarondise

Pretty much a regular
Where do you guys put him right now, in a list if we're measuring JUST the level of impact a player has on his team's success. How high do you guys think his ceiling is? Is it JUST titles that put Jordan too high to reach?...Do you think there are any other players in the NBA with more skill then lebron?

I'm going to be posting the results of this thread on a friend's wall who said that game two didn't even impress him. That George, Durant, and Wade are all more skilled players then Lebron. That he doesn't have the mental toughness of Jordan blah blah blah...

so I ask...

Just how good IS lebron James?
 
LeBron made a huge jump forward after winning his first title.
I was one of his biggest critics before that, but he really became a lot better. He also stopped trying to get everyone to like him and stopped acting like a clown (like he did back in Cleveland days and Dwight still does).

From history standpoint, he is about to break most of MJ's and Kobe's records, but on the other hand... one big injury and he will be a shell of himself, so it's impossible to decide now...

I do think he is better athlete than Kobe and MJ and maybe the best basketball athlete of all times.
 
GOAT and any of the old school guys who say anyone is better is out of their mind. There are very few, if any, athletes from the "old days" that could compete in today's leagues. A replacement level player in 2014 is probably equivalent to an all-star 50 years ago.
 
orangemonk said:
GOAT and any of the old school guys who say anyone is better is out of their mind. There are very few, if any, athletes from the "old days" that could compete in today's leagues. A replacement level player in 2014 is probably equivalent to an all-star 50 years ago.
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Well of course, but when you do something like this you need to compare the player to their competition at the time and try to figure out which guy is/was better. It's quite obvious that players in any sport from today would dominate players from decades and eras ago.
 
Lareux said:
Well of course, but when you do something like this you need to compare the player to their competition at the time and try to figure out which guy is/was better. It's quite obvious that players in any sport from today would dominate players from decades and eras ago.
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right but how many times have you heard in an interview a guy say something like "lebron wouldn't have lasted in the 80s" or something like that. relative comparison is the only way someone could debate he isn't the best player ever, but that's unfair. that's like saying Jesse James is the best sprinter ever when you have Bolt and 10 other guys crushing his times.
 
Lebron is the best small Fwd to ever play the game. Being a long time Lakers fan I've got a place in my heart for Larry Bird but Lebron has just about every advantage over Larry except for between the ears.
 
To me titles don't mean shit in a team sport, can't blame a player for the ownership,gm and other front office guys who can't put together a winning team.

Lebron should go down as the best player ever if he continues to grow, learn and perfect his craft. He does things on both ends of the floor that are remarkable. And if you ask me what about jordan, Lebron's court vision is much better (passing, getting others involved) plus lebron can cover the 1-4 sometimes the 5's jordan couldnt. my .02
 
orangemonk said:
right but how many times have you heard in an interview a guy say something like "lebron wouldn't have lasted in the 80s" or something like that. relative comparison is the only way someone could debate he isn't the best player ever, but that's unfair. that's like saying Jesse James is the best sprinter ever when you have Bolt and 10 other guys crushing his times.
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That's why the comparison topic of athletes from different eras is pointless and nauseating. It's not unfair to use relative comparison, it's the only true way to see who the best player was. Again, of course most/all athletes are better now, we have evolved as a species.
 
orangemonk said:
GOAT and any of the old school guys who say anyone is better is out of their mind. There are very few, if any, athletes from the "old days" that could compete in today's leagues. A replacement level player in 2014 is probably equivalent to an all-star 50 years ago.
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He is top 5-8...

But he also plays in a league with much less talent and much more lax rules than MJ did. That isn't even a debate.

He will prolly finish as 2nd best ever or 1A when all said and done though.
 
TheCashMan said:
To me titles don't mean shit in a team sport, can't blame a player for the ownership,gm and other front office guys who can't put together a winning team.

Lebron should go down as the best player ever if he continues to grow, learn and perfect his craft. He does things on both ends of the floor that are remarkable. And if you ask me what about jordan, Lebron's court vision is much better (passing, getting others involved) plus lebron can cover the 1-4 sometimes the 5's jordan couldnt. my .02
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Lebron has always done it. MJ could....look at 88-89 2nd half of season when he got forced to PG for reference.
 
I respect LeBron now. Can he be a bitch? Yes. But he has evolved and is just outstanding in most facets now.

Lebron playing his career from mid-eighties to late-nineties woulda been fun to watch. Just think about him getting hammered so often on drives etc...I wonder how he woulda responded instead of the league he plays in now which is so pussified(pro sports in general).
 
B.A.R. said:
I respect LeBron now. Can he be a bitch? Yes. But he has evolved and is just outstanding in most facets now.

Lebron playing his career from mid-eighties to late-nineties woulda been fun to watch. Just think about him getting hammered so often on drives etc...I wonder how he woulda responded instead of the league he plays in now which is so pussified(pro sports in general).
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Good points.

I think LeBron would have responded the way guys did back then if he grew up in that era....guys weren't pussified yet, and LeBron is simply a product of his environment in that respect (the pussified society in which we now live).
 
B.A.R. said:
He is top 5-8...


But he also plays in a league with much less talent and much more lax rules than MJ did. That isn't even a debate.


He will prolly finish as 2nd best ever or 1A when all said and done though.
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Agreed, if mj was playin rite now wit tha rules he wouldn't be puttin up even crazier numbers? That niggga would be averagin 40 a game.
 
B.A.R. said:
He is top 5-8...

But he also plays in a league with much less talent and much more lax rules than MJ did. That isn't even a debate.

He will prolly finish as 2nd best ever or 1A when all said and done though.
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disagree quite a bit with this. IMO average NBA player in 2014 is much better than the average guy in 1995, even factoring in expansion.
 
tru said:
Agreed, if mj was playin rite now wit tha rules he wouldn't be puttin up even crazier numbers? That niggga would be averagin 40 a game.
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With no handcheck and how diluted the league is(it's getting better...was much worse 12 years ago)...pre-championship MJ woulda averaged low-40's no doubt in my mind..prolly a routine 42-7-6 a game.
 
orangemonk said:
disagree quite a bit with this. IMO average NBA player in 2014 is much better than the average guy in 1995, even factoring in expansion.
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I wasn't talking 1995...that was when the dilution had really started to set in.

Look at what MJ had to look at in a 23-25 team league each night on offense and defense and compare that to what Lebron does nowadays...so many throwaway games on defense for him...not 25 years ago for MJ. He didn't wait till important games to turn it up on both ends(KB has same issue...these guys simply get so many more 'lax' games due to competition).

For comparison sakes OM, list the best 10 players currently in your mind.
 
Lareux said:
Good points.

I think LeBron would have responded the way guys did back then if he grew up in that era....guys weren't pussified yet, and LeBron is simply a product of his environment in that respect (the pussified society in which we now live).
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Good point(s)
 
orangemonk said:
disagree quite a bit with this. IMO average NBA player in 2014 is much better than the average guy in 1995, even factoring in expansion.
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You can both be right.

The overall average player is certainly better, but the league is still diluted and easier to get through if that makes sense. The better players are that much better than the average player now then the better players were over the average player back then....because as a whole, the league is much less talented (comparatively speaking on a whole, not individually, as again it's a given that athletes are just bigger, stronger, faster nowadays). Essentially, the gap between superstar and average is greater now than it was back then, regardless of the talent of the league as a whole.
 
orangemonk said:
disagree quite a bit with this. IMO average NBA player in 2014 is much better than the average guy in 1995, even factoring in expansion.
Click to expand...


Not sure what makes you believe this, drop Jordan's Bulls into the league today and LeBron has zero rings. Drop the 1995 Houston Rockets or Orlando Magic into the Finals today and they win it all.

LeBron's greatest accomplishment for me was taking that 2007 Cavs team to the Finals, I don't care how many Titles he wins taking that talentless roster to the Finals was an accomplishment that is much overlooked and deserves much greater recognition.
 
Lareux said:
You can both be right.

The overall average player is certainly better, but the league is still diluted and easier to get through if that makes sense. The better players are that much better than the average player now then the better players were over the average player back then....because as a whole, the league is much less talented (comparatively speaking on a whole, not individually, as again it's a given that athletes are just bigger, stronger, faster nowadays). Essentially, the gap between superstar and average is greater now than it was back then, regardless of the talent of the league as a whole.
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Yup.

And also, 'Superstar' gets overused in the league now. No more than 3-5 are in league at this point.

Without even looking at who faced who position-wise...which group do you take(mind you this is quick and just for entertainment purposes)

Group 1:

Jordan
Magic
Isiah
Ewing
Olajuwon
Robinson
Malone
Barkley
'Nique
Drexler



Group 2:

LB
Durantula
Kobe
Westbrook
CP3
Harden
Griffen
LA
Love
Old vets(TD-Dirk)
Paul George



So those are samplings of your best players, and we noted the drop-off after the first tier or two in todays game.

Now figure in no hand-checking since end of '94 season.

And no hard fouls allowed.


This is pretty easy.


No fault of LBJ. It is the era he came in and he has dominated.
 
yeah, i think the biggest thing i hear across many sports these days are the level of play for the top athletes has risen, but the league has more and more teams so the competition as a whole can be diminished slightly overall...

this is EXACTLY what i was looking for...great stuff...i tend to agree with all of you for the most part...kinda lean towards BARs take for the most part...

he's an incredible athlete with terrific skills and sound judgement who plays lock down defense when needed, and a terrific vision to compliment his passing skills with a willingness to spread the ball around to get his teammates involved. I consider him the best of his era already...his impact is just incredible...time will tell where he falls in history but I see no reason why he cant reach T1
 
He has reached that level of greatness like MJ where they can't just give him the MVP every year. Look back at MJ's career they always gave it to someone who had a career year(ex. Barkley 93...Admiral...95...Malone...97 or 98).

These guys were the best every year and most valuable.

KD is my favorite player and had been since UT...and he won MVP this year...and good for him...but like HUNT texted me a few weeks ago he ain't got nothing on Bron. No defense and other intangibles.
 
B.A.R. said:
Lebron has always done it. MJ could....look at 88-89 2nd half of season when he got forced to PG for reference.
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Yes, mj could, but not like what Lebron can do.


And with all the comments on the hand checking. Jordan would foul out in the first quarter of todays game (except for the star treatment) - he was the biggest hand checker to play the game - Lebron has to play defense without the benefit of hand checking.
 
TheCashMan said:
Yes, mj could, but not like what Lebron can do.


And with all the comments on the hand checking. Jordan would foul out in the first quarter of todays game (except for the star treatment) - he was the biggest hand checker to play the game - Lebron has to play defense without the benefit of hand checking.
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Not with the star treatment lol.

Trust me, I HATED MJ from 1990-1993. He was a snake. I respected his 2nd run and rooted for him in early days and the Wizards days.

As far as hand-checking, MJ's lateral movement/quickness was amazing when he wanted to play defense at it's finest. This isn't talking Derek Harper here who relied on that.
 
B.A.R. said:
Not with the star treatment lol.

Trust me, I HATED MJ from 1990-1993. He was a snake. I respected his 2nd run and rooted for him in early days and the Wizards days.

As far as hand-checking, MJ's lateral movement/quickness was amazing when he wanted to play defense at it's finest. This isn't talking Derek Harper here who relied on that.
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understood!

on Harper - talk about a guy who made a second career after injury..
 
TheCashMan said:
understood!

on Harper - talk about a guy who made a second career after injury..
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Believe your thinking of Ron Harper...Derek Harper was the Mavericks and Knicks point guard who was notorious for handckecking and sometimes referred to as the best player never to be an All-Star ( I go with Mike Bibby there but I'm extremely biased on that one).
 
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On Bars list, you could have added Larry Bird to the 80's as well.

Bird at age 31 in 87-88 averaged 27.5 8.5 and 5.5 with shooting %'s > 50-40-90...His game plays in any era.

Durant is such an 80's player it's unreal.
 
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97-98 Jazz would shit all over the Heat!

PG John Stockton/Howard Eisley
SG Jeff Hornacek/Shandon Anderson
SF Bryon Russell/Chris Morris
PF Karl Malone/Adam Keefe/Antoine Carr
C Greg Foster/Greg Ostertag

:cigarguy:
 
Well no but you managed to pick the best Finals team from the 90's for the Heat to match up with.

Jazz despite being one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the league simply didn't shoot them, finishing dead last in 3 attempts and more than a 1000 less than the most trigger happy team. Jazz also have no offensive threat at center and were a below average defensive team.

There isn't a single Champ from the 90's that this current Heat squad would have beaten.

Also only one player better than LeBron from the 90's and that's MJ.
 
B.A.R. said:
He is top 5-8...

But he also plays in a league with much less talent and much more lax rules than MJ did. That isn't even a debate.

He will prolly finish as 2nd best ever or 1A when all said and done though.
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yep...

also guys "want" to play with each other and it wasn't like that before

also this team has moonwalked through the East....
 
ArizonaKid said:
On Bars list, you could have added Larry Bird to the 80's as well.

Bird at age 31 in 87-88 averaged 27.5 8.5 and 5.5 with shooting %'s > 50-40-90...His game plays in any era.

Durant is such an 80's player it's unreal.
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The reason I left him off is I went with a specific year in '89(he played 6 games...bone spurs...and I added rookie Robinson).
 
Also no mention of how much better the quality of big men was "back in the day" as opposed to today. The Dream would ABUSE this Heat squad
 
I'll begrudgingly note that the Cavs went from title contender to never sniffing the playoffs in four years while meanwhile this guy ...

I think he's kind of douchey and maybe even still a little mentally fragile, not as much as the Cleveland days. But guy can really do it all, and I'll also give him this. Really stays out of trouble. What do we got on him in this day and age, speeding tickets and bad tipping?

I've decided I'll take him back.
 
ArizonaKid said:
Not sure what makes you believe this, drop Jordan's Bulls into the league today and LeBron has zero rings. Drop the 1995 Houston Rockets or Orlando Magic into the Finals today and they win it all.

LeBron's greatest accomplishment for me was taking that 2007 Cavs team to the Finals, I don't care how many Titles he wins taking that talentless roster to the Finals was an accomplishment that is much overlooked and deserves much greater recognition.
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You dissing Boobie Gibson?

That 2007 Cavs team really was a band of bums.
 
If you guys think the level of talent today is better than the late 80s early 90s you are crazy. The rules also all favor ball handlers and scorers. Jordan would drop 40 a night with ease without people hand checking him and using 2 hands with his unbelievable post game.

Lebron quit on his team in the 2011 finals. Quit on the Cavs when Delonte fucked his mother. And has won a strike shortened season and another one that involved the biggest collapse in history and a lucky 3. He will be 2 for 5 in finals and had to become a ring chaser to get there.

hes not Michael, he's not Timmy, he's not Kobe. Perhaps somewhere after that for top player since the MJ era.
 
Inspekdah said:
If you guys think the level of talent today is better than the late 80s early 90s you are crazy. The rules also all favor ball handlers and scorers. Jordan would drop 40 a night with ease without people hand checking him and using 2 hands with his unbelievable post game.

Lebron quit on his team in the 2011 finals. Quit on the Cavs when Delonte fucked his mother. And has won a strike shortened season and another one that involved the biggest collapse in history and a lucky 3. He will be 2 for 5 in finals and had to become a ring chaser to get there.

hes not Michael, he's not Timmy, he's not Kobe. Perhaps somewhere after that for top player since the MJ era.
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kobe is a god and duncan is in the top 10 of all time but they are not better than lebron.

and what do the rules have to do with talent level. it is called evolution. players today are bigger stronger and more athletic. just flat out better.

and you bring up hand checking while ignoring the fact that team defense is vastly superior today.
 
Coverdatspred said:
Lebron is the best small Fwd to ever play the game. Being a long time Lakers fan I've got a place in my heart for Larry Bird but Lebron has just about every advantage over Larry except for between the ears.
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agree here except larry was a better passer than lebron.....lebron only guy i have ever seen that plays the game 5 seconds ahead of every one else on the court like larry did....mj wasn't close to these two in court sense/vision
 
orangemonk said:
disagree quite a bit with this. IMO average NBA player in 2014 is much better than the average guy in 1995, even factoring in expansion.
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disgree....85 finals...majic/kareem/worthy/green/scott vs larry/robert/kevin/danny/dennis....there isn't two teams in the league that could match that talent today....especially average guys...r u kidding me
 
I just have a hard time believing anyone thinks Lebron is the best player of all-time. Because he can pass better than someone else doesn't make him better overall. He's not even a top 3 scorer in today's NBA. And probably not a top 10 scorer all-time.

When this finals is over. He will have lost 3, won 2. 1 being a strike shortened season and the other being the walking asterisk from last season. Which will go down as a lost battle to the Spurs if they come back and get revenge.

MJ was 6 for 6 in finals and none were ever, ever, in doubt. He didn't ring chase. He didn't boast he was going to win 8 titles in a row. Had MJ never retired, no one will argue that the team would have won 8 titles and probably would have won a 9th and 10th had he continued playing. Lebron will never be on that level. Pat Riley said no one will win a championship with MJ playing. No one talks about Lebron like this. I mean come on, the newest Heat rumors involve Melo signing there. This is the hype around their success... and how they got there.

No matter what you do you cannot reverse the hands of time. You can't erase quitting and sitting at half court on possessions in the finals 3 years ago. You can't erase that he couldn't win with the team that drafted him. You can't erase the decision and the antics. These are permanent stains on an unbelievable career. Maybe if he leaves the ring chasing group and goes to a young group in Cleveland and wins 6 in a row then we can compare the two. That's how far apart they are.
 
Just breathe in, breathe out and remove yourself from any argument that LeBron is the GOAT

It's not worth it, pretty juvenile argument and you aren't changing anyone's mind, and fortunately the real world won't see it that way unless some really crazy shit happens over the next several years.
 
kjohnson109 said:
Just breathe in, breathe out and remove yourself from any argument that LeBron is the GOAT

It's not worth it, pretty juvenile argument and you aren't changing anyone's mind, and fortunately the real world won't see it that way unless some really crazy shit happens over the next several years.
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My friend posted that Lebron wasn't as skilled as Wade (when healthy he conceded lol)...or Paul George....or Durant...

I don't know how the season ended, but I was surprised to see that Lebron was averaging something like 45% of all his jumpers made this season. It ranked 1st in the NBA. So we're talking about an elite jump shooter, great passer with great vision, who plays terrific defense, and is incredibly fast and can drive on any team.

But my main argument is there has never been a player that left a team the way Lebron left the Cavs. The wins delta was staggering.
 
Lebron has a chance to be right up there with Wilt and Jordan. We need to see how his game evolves as he ages and starts losing his athleticism.
 
Dude is very good but not great just yet. Best player in the league right now though.

Also, every great player has a sidekick or two.
 
Not that it has anything to do with anything, but I feel like if Lebron and MJ played one-on-one in their primes, make-it-take-it to 11, Lebron would win like 11-1.
 
Always something going on with that guy. 1st quarter bathroom break.
 
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