Championship Week What Are We Learning

[cubsker]

Why should CFB be the only sport with this have to win your conference stuff?

 

[jedi ninja]

Why should CFB be the only sport with this have to win your conference stuff?

Because they don’t play a balanced schedule like professional sports leagues and they have what is now a 4 team playoff? There has to be some way to qualify the teams as opposed to just subjectivity, at least I think that’s what most feel about the topic.

It’s the same way in CBB too, win your division and you’re in. The difference is they don’t only have a 4 team playoff, so many more teams get in. The argument is just that the conference winners should get “first dibs” so to speak. It makes sense logically does it not?

 

[jedi ninja]

In the case of the Big12 TCU did play and beat every other team but obviously that didn't happen in most conferences.

Right, because the Big 12 has only has 10 teams (math is weird when colleges get involved) so they all get to play one another. Which is why I suggested making 6 conferences made up of 11 teams (as there are 65 Power Five schools). They could also get rid of 5 teams and make 6 10-team conferences.

 

[cubsker]

Because they don’t play a balanced schedule like professional sports leagues and they have what is now a 4 team playoff? There has to be some way to qualify the teams as opposed to just subjectivity, at least I think that’s what most feel about the topic.

The conferences don't even play a balanced schedule. The big ten west winner is just whoever draws the easiest schedule every year. Then they get lucky in one game and you want to put em in the playoff? Pass.

 

[jedi ninja]

The conferences don't even play a balanced schedule. The big ten west winner is just whoever draws the easiest schedule every year. Then they get lucky in one game and you want to put em in the playoff? Pass.

Agreed. That’s why I’ve suggested a different way. In the absence of a true round robin in each division, the winner of the conference has to be the decider.

And no, I don't want to put them in the playoff. They would only be one of the two division winners in the Big 10's case. They would still have to win the championship game right?

 

[cubsker]

I'm also not in favor of a playoff with only conf champions. Let's have a 10 team playoff without possibly the second best team...nah.

 

[jedi ninja]

I'm also not in favor of a playoff with only conf champions. Let's have a 10 team playoff without possibly the second best team...nah.

There shouldn’t be 10 conferences. There should be 6. The Power Five needs to break from the rest of the FBS.

 

[cubsker]

There shouldn’t be 10 conferences. There should be 6. The Power Five needs to break from the rest of the FBS.

I'm guessing that will happen, but I don't love it. I love a good upset. I love Tulane getting a crack at USC. I loved Mckenzie Milton and UCF.

 

[M.W.]

Has made the whole thing subjective and easy to forget, that part I appreciate

One game, Geogia/Mich for the marbles is interesting. NYE semifinals is the opposite. This won't be memorable other than to fans of the schools involved.

Can't wait to forget more games down the road as it expands, with ALS now in the family, these are times to enjoy the past

I'm sorry to hear about the ALS. How awful!

But I do agree with you.

 

[M.W.]

Why should CFB be the only sport with this have to win your conference stuff?

Good point. Let's roll basketball back to the early 70's when the ACC tournament was as good as the NCAA tourney.

 

[s--k]

It is how the conference determines its champion. Kstate is the champion, TCU is the runner up.

YES, resounding YES, that I want to punish them for not winning their conference when it comes to making a 4 team playoff.

Amen

 

[s--k]

The rules also say the 4 best teams make the playoff. Kansas St is not one of the four best teams.

In the minds of some collection of 13 people. Ask a different set of 13 people there might be a different answer. What is "best"? I would rather not have humans deciding "best" I would rather teams play games to determine "best". When Kansas State isn't playing with their third string QB for meaningful parts of the game vs TCU, it would appear they are the "best" in the Big Xll

 

[s--k]

I'm arguing the conf champ game should not exist for conferences with a round robin.

I love this! So the Big Xll has it, however, they determine a champion in their conference championship game. I will agree with you that it is completely unnecessary. However, that is how they do it, so the winner of that game, is the champion.

Think about the trends in major college football. In a 12 game regular season we have conferences of 16 teams. So any member of that conference has 15 in-league opponents. How many of those league opponents should the team play, well I say they should play them all. Every year, you should play everyone in your league. But that doesn't fit the financial dreams of the conference commissioners. So, if we have a 3 game non-conference schedule, a team is going to play ... 9 of their 15 peers. They will play just 60% of their league opponents. That makes no sense. Success and failure is hinged on who you DO NOT play instead of who you actually do play. That is wrong. Mega conferences are wrong.

So I agree. I agree 100%! Everyone should do it like the Big Xll does it, play everyone in your league, without a league title game at the end. But, right now they do it with a league title game and therefore Kansas State is said champion and TCU is second best in their own conference, yet for some reason is being rewarded by playing for the best prize in the land, all while their league champion is not.

 

[s--k]

I'm guessing that will happen, but I don't love it. I love a good upset. I love Tulane getting a crack at USC. I loved Mckenzie Milton and UCF.

You love a good upset. Unless it is a lucky upset.

Then they get lucky in one game and you want to put em in the playoff? Pass.

If LSU would've beat Georgia would that be a good upset you would've loved? But if Georgia had 3 turnovers and a couple missed FGs that determined it and that is how LSU would've upset them, it is lucky and you wouldn't have loved it?

The teams that win the most important games should qualify for a post season national title playoff. If a team gets lucky and does it or if a team wins 42-7 and does it the outcome of the game should be respected.

 

[cubsker]

In the minds of some collection of 13 people. Ask a different set of 13 people there might be a different answer. What is "best"? I would rather not have humans deciding "best" I would rather teams play games to determine "best". When Kansas State isn't playing with their third string QB for meaningful parts of the game vs TCU, it would appear they are the "best" in the Big Xll

I'll remind you that Duggan was TCU's number 2 QB. Health (and depth) are skills.

 

[cubsker]

You love a good upset. Unless it is a lucky upset.



If LSU would've beat Georgia would that be a good upset you would've loved? But if Georgia had 3 turnovers and a couple missed FGs that determined it and that is how LSU would've upset them, it is lucky and you wouldn't have loved it?

The teams that win the most important games should qualify for a post season national title playoff. If a team gets lucky and does it or if a team wins 42-7 and does it the outcome of the game should be respected.

Loving upsets and wanting the best teams in the playoff aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[cubsker]

In the minds of some collection of 13 people. Ask a different set of 13 people there might be a different answer. What is "best"? I would rather not have humans deciding "best" I would rather teams play games to determine "best". When Kansas State isn't playing with their third string QB for meaningful parts of the game vs TCU, it would appear they are the "best" in the Big Xll

You would surely agree Tulane gets in over Kansas St anyway, right?

 

[KJ]

I'll remind you that Duggan was TCU's number 2 QB. Health (and depth) are skills.

#2 QBs often end up being better than starters in this sport

It's not close to professional

 

[s--k]

I'll remind you that Duggan was TCU's number 2 QB. Health (and depth) are skills.

Duggan was also a multi-year starter before this staff gave the keys to Morris. So Duggan playing against Kansas State, being their preseason #2, isn't the same thing as Kansas St being on their #3 after both Martinez and Howard left.

Loving upsets and wanting the best teams in the playoff aren't mutually exclusive.

That's fair.

You would surely agree Tulane gets in over Kansas St anyway, right?

That depends entirely what system we are talking about. While Tulane beat Kansas State they are not in the same conference. So then, to me, if it is a 4 team BCS picks the 4 highest ranked conference champions, then I don't know, it would be whatever the BCS forumla came back with as who is the highest conference champion. Perhaps they both get in and some other conference champion from the ACC or PAC 12 gets left out.

But if we were talking about a 6-team playoff, then they would both be in. 8-team, they are both in. The only real wrong answer is that TCU is in.

 

[cubsker]

It's very bizarre to me to argue that the rules are wrong, only conf Champs should get in, and then use as your argument a second later, but those are the rules, that's how they determine their conf champion.

Tcu went 9-1, Kst went 8-2, and somehow because an arbitrary designation was given to one game then kst is better in your eyes.

 

[jedi ninja]

It's very bizarre to me to argue that the rules are wrong, only conf Champs should get in, and then use as your argument a second later, but those are the rules, that's how they determine their conf champion.

Tcu went 9-1, Kst went 8-2, and somehow because an arbitrary designation was given to one game then kst is better in your eyes.

But I think everyone would agree that if they had balanced conferences, and true round robin’s then there isn’t a need for the conference champ game and no one would support it. It seems there are two different convos going on…how it is now as constructed, and what people would like to see (whether it be a 6 or 8 team playoff).

I’m not sure anyone is really being inconsistent as much as talking about a couple different scenarios. Maybe not, I’m just guessing.

 

[s--k]

I wish that every conference was sized so that teams would play all the teams in their leagues and I do not like conference title games, feel they are duplicative and unnecessary. But, most all the conferences are too big (and getting bigger) and conference title games make money. And the bottom line is that the conference champion is determined by that game regardless of what happened in the regular season. There is no TCU is regular season Big Xll Champion and Kansas State is Big Xll Title game Champion. There is only one Big Xll Champion and it is Kansas State, so they need to be recognized as such.

If the other 'rule' we are discussing is the criteria the selection committee is using as their mandate to select the 4 best teams. The "best" teams thing is this - I might have my best and you have your best and 100 people have some combination of their best and power ratings and point spreads reflect their best. But who really knows? The supposed better team doesn't always win. Boise was favored over Fresno, USC was favored over Utah, TCU was favored over Kansas State - those were the supposed better teams and those teams lost. People can be wrong in their judgements and what qualifies a person to pick who is best? It is very flawed. The outcome of a game can be flawed as well, as you say a "fluke" perhaps, but atleast the players and teams involved are determining the outcome, not somebody sitting in a chair watching it and then deciding if they think the best team won or not and ignoring the result to fit some kind of process or agenda.

I would like to replace selecting what some method or person thinks are the best teams, and replace that with a system that selects the winners of games that qualify them for a playoff.

 

[twinkie13]

That would only be true if that is what the rules were to start with.

That is like saying ... but I won every hand before I lost the big hand with all my chips in the middle. It isn't fair!!! I won 5 hands against him and he only won 1.

I suppose, as someone who won a lot as an underdog, and who gambled for a living where the most important factor is rules, I am a stickler for wanting the rules to be followed and a stickler for using strategy to achieve the goal.

The Big12, rightly or wrongly, determines their champion by that championship game. Kstate played by those rules and won the championship.

If Tampa Bay goes on to win the Super Bowl from here, they deserve it whether they had a good regular season or not, whether they are the best team or not, and whether or not the NFL playoff qualifying rules are good or not.

That is how I feel about it.

It's like kstate and tcu are playing monopoly and TCU has all the properties except the railroads and and the yellow ones with $5,000 left over and kstate keeps missing frog properties and TCU keeps landing on kstate properties, you don't change the rules when TCU goes bankrupt because random luck is stupid. Rules matter.

Which conferences didn’t have the championship game years back? Like most recently?

 

[s--k]

Which conferences didn’t have the championship game years back? Like most recently?

The Big Xll added their title game again in 2017 after not having one from 2011-2016. The first ever Big Xll title game was 1996

The first Big Ten title game was 2011

The first PAC 12 title game was 2011

The first ACC title game was 2005

The first SEC title game was 1992