Bill Belichick

HUNT

HUNT

CTG Partner
Staff member
Most overrated head coach in NFL history.

Brady won the super bowls, when he left he wins on his own in Tampa. Belichick doesn't do shit.

But the biggest thing... His coaching tree

Crennel-fail
McDaniel-fail
Patricia-fail
Mangini-fail
Judge-fail
Bill O'Brien-fail
Flores-jury still out

Now, interestingly his college tree is better
Saban
Bieliema
Ferentz
 
Are you saying that Bill won all those Super Bowls with shitty coaches helping him? Maybe his own good coaching made idiots look good enough to get their own head coaching gigs?
 
VirginiaCavs said:
Are you saying that Bill won all those Super Bowls with shitty coaches helping him? Maybe his own good coaching made idiots look good enough to get their own head coaching gigs?
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Hahaha w/o Brady he's just another in a long list of forgotten Browns coaches
 
Seems to me like a double standard to say that the Super Bowls were all Brady, while saying that New England‘s losses with Mac/Zappe were all Belichick
 
VirginiaCavs said:
Are you saying that Bill won all those Super Bowls with shitty coaches helping him? Maybe his own good coaching made idiots look good enough to get their own head coaching gigs?
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I honestly in my heart of hearts think Brady was that good. I do think bill had some great defenses for sure , he had some defense experts I guess you could say, but not super bowl level ones.

I also think the players played more for Tom than Bill
 
VirginiaCavs said:
So is Bill Walsh a fraud too? Vince Lombardi? Tom Landry?
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Exactly. The magic resided in New England having Brady and Belichick. Belichick won 2 Super Bowls as DC before Brady ever got to college. As DC he got carried off the field by his players after the Giants beat Denver in Super Bowl XXI and then he devised a scheme to hold the high flying Bills offense to 19pts.
 
VirginiaCavs said:
Seems to me like a double standard to say that the Super Bowls were all Brady, while saying that New England‘s losses with Mac/Zappe were all Belichick
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Mac and Zappe are just straight dog shit that's a good point... But I don't think pats were going to win bowls without Brady. I guess we'll just never know.
 
wiseplayer said:
Exactly. The magic resided in New England having Brady and Belichick. Belichick won 2 Super Bowls as DC before Brady ever got to college. As DC he got carried off the field by his players after the Giants beat Denver in Super Bowl XXI and then he devised a scheme to hold the high flying Bills offense to 19pts.
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Being a DC doesn't count. Romeo Crennel had a few purple Gatorade baths and was dog shit as a head coach. Buddy Ryan was carried off the field for the 85 bears defense and he was turrible we a head man.

I was just shocked by the coaching tree. I think that says a lot. Imo.
 
HUNT said:
Those guys had way way better coaching trees than Bill.
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What does a “coaching tree” mean to you? Are they only unsuccessful (or successful) if they go on to succeed as a HC? How many of those coaches were just great coordinators and nothing more?

The talk on here recently has been about guys who are amazing coordinators but don’t cut it as a head coach. How in the world would that be the top of the “coaching trees” fault, or to their detriment?

It’s always weird when the guys who’s opinions matter at all (if any of them do), to a man, say Bill is the best who’s ever done it…when random fans of other teams act like he’s a scrub. It’s such a weird dichotomy isn’t it?
 
HUNT said:
Being a DC doesn't count. Romeo Crennel had a few purple Gatorade baths and was dog shit as a head coach. Buddy Ryan was carried off the field for the 85 bears defense and he was turrible we a head man.

I was just shocked by the coaching tree. I think that says a lot. Imo.
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In what way does a “coaching tree” say anything about the top of that trees ability and successes as a HC himself?

As in how does how anyone who coached under Bill and their success (or lack thereof) as a HC themselves speak to Bill as a HC himself. It doesn’t make any sense at all.

Since when did the HC’s job become developing other great HCs as opposed to actually winning the fucking Super Bowl (MULTIPLE fucking times in this case)? Y’all are reaching for reasons to hate on him.
 
HUNT said:
I honestly in my heart of hearts think Brady was that good. I do think bill had some great defenses for sure , he had some defense experts I guess you could say, but not super bowl level ones.

I also think the players played more for Tom than Bill
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The clip from the apple doc next month a player says something like that, I think it was

We worked for bill, but we played for tom
 
Has anyone, ever in the history of NFL talk, brought up Don Shula’s “coaching tree?” How about Landry’s? Anyone ever heard about Vince Lombardi’s “tree?”

This argument is nothing but new age BS for the haters. Prove me wrong.
 
jedi ninja said:
What does a “coaching tree” mean to you? Are they only unsuccessful (or successful) if they go on to succeed as a HC? How many of those coaches were just great coordinators and nothing more?

The talk on here recently has been about guys who are amazing coordinators but don’t cut it as a head coach. How in the world would that be the top of the “coaching trees” fault, or to their detriment?

It’s always weird when the guys who’s opinions matter at all (if any of them do), to a man, say Bill is the best who’s ever done it…when random fans of other teams act like he’s a scrub. It’s such a weird dichotomy isn’t it?
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It's just a fun debate is all. I think I'm more inclined to think the players make the coaches most of the time?

A good coaching tree to me means that you as the head coach are excellent where you are at while those under you develop and become head coaches themselves and succeed elsewhere.

It's just odd to me that Belichick didn't have 1 successful underling do much of anything in the NFL.

Even Patriots front office guys like Bob Quinn were terrible. Just maybe it was the players under BB and not the organization or system.
 
jedi ninja said:
How many coaches with a top 5 QB won 6 Super Bowls and had 13 seasons with 12 or more wins?
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I'm guessing none

I dont think bellichek is bad, I do think it's a bit of a stain on his legacy that he couldnt do anything without brady

Hes still the best coach in my lifetime, I dont know how to rank him vs the much older guys
 
guaranteeed said:
I'm guessing none

I dont think bellichek is bad, I do think it's a bit of a stain on his legacy that he couldnt do anything without brady

Hes still the best coach in my lifetime, I dont know how to rank him vs the much older guys
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Even with his horrible “coaching tree?” That’s odd.
 
jedi ninja said:
How many coaches with a top 5 QB won 6 Super Bowls and had 13 seasons with 12 or more wins?
Click to expand...
Sort of related

Wouldnt you say brady has a better legacy though? The fact he went and won one while bellichek faltered kind of pushes brady to the top of the pyramid in terms of who was most important
 
jedi ninja said:
Has anyone, ever in the history of NFL talk, brought up Don Shula’s “coaching tree?” How about Landry’s? Anyone ever heard about Vince Lombardi’s “tree?”

This argument is nothing but new age BS for the haters. Prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

I dunno man Google just gave me like 2k results when I typed in best coaching trees. Articles dating back to mf 2008.
 
guaranteeed said:
Sort of related

Wouldnt you say brady has a better legacy though? The fact he went and won one while bellichek faltered kind of pushes brady to the top of the pyramid in terms of who was most important
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Sure, maybe. There are SO MANY factors that go into winning a title though.

Even if that’s true…are we really acting like Bill isn’t one of the best because his “coaching tree” is less than stellar? That’s fucking ludicrous in my opinion.
 
HUNT said:
I dunno man Google just gave me like 2k results when I typed in best coaching trees. Articles dating back to mf 2008.
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How many times has it been discussed on CTG? How many times in your life do you remember it being an actual talking point on an NFL show?

No shit people have done the work and wrote articles. How often did it actually come up in conversation concerning how great those coaches were is the point. But you know that, you’re not a moron.
 
guaranteeed said:
Sort of related

Wouldnt you say brady has a better legacy though? The fact he went and won one while bellichek faltered kind of pushes brady to the top of the pyramid in terms of who was most important
Click to expand...

Also why didn’t you answer the question. How many other coaches with a top 5 QB won 6 Super Bowls and had 13 seasons with 12 or more wins? Seems an easy question to answer.
 
jedi ninja said:
How many times has it been discussed on CTG? How many times in your life do you remember it being an actual talking point on an NFL show?

No shit people have done the work and wrote articles. How often did it actually come up in conversation concerning how great those coaches were is the point. But you know that, you’re not a moron.
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I think we're looking at it in different ways and that's fine. I personally think, for his legacy, at New England only, he was overrated and I used his coaching tree as an example.
 
The patriots offense when Brady was there was system based....it was like plug and play shanahan system...just short option routes. It's why jimmy g and matt cassell won when Brady was out

The patriots defense carried them early in Brady's career.

When I watch Brady throw a football he is not on the level of a manning or Rodgers physically throwing

Sure Brady won with tampa.....but he was also carried by the defense ..and Baker is performing better then he did last year.

The first few super bowls beating mcnabb out scheming Kurt Warner and Sean mcvay....those are more from bills brilliance. He has unique game plans for the time. Brady was great...but the patriots offense system is so different now Brady would suck in this pats offense
 
HUNT said:
I think we're looking at it in different ways and that's fine. I personally think, for his legacy, at New England only, he was overrated and I used his coaching tree as an example.
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He won 6 Super Bowls and had 13 seasons with 12 or more wins. If that’s overrated I can’t imagine how great of a coach would be considered not overrated. Anyone on your mind who would fit that bill?
 
EL CAPO said:
The patriots offense when Brady was there was system based....it was like plug and play shanahan system...just short option routes. It's why jimmy g and matt cassell won when Brady was out

The patriots defense carried them early in Brady's career.

When I watch Brady throw a football he is not on the level of a manning or Rodgers physically throwing

Sure Brady won with tampa.....but he was also carried by the defense ..and Baker is performing better then he did last year.

The first few super bowls beating mcnabb out scheming Kurt Warner and Sean mcvay....those are more from bills brilliance. He has unique game plans for the time. Brady was great...but the patriots offense system is so different now Brady would suck in this pats offense
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What if we put Bill in Detroit with Matt Stafford and Patricia in New England do we see different results?
 
HUNT said:
What if we put Bill in Detroit with Matt Stafford and Patricia in New England do we see different results?
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You could literally “what if” every single coach ever, every single SB winning coach ever. Is that really what we’re doing instead of just admitting the guy was one of the best, if not the best ever? Lol, come on man.
 
HUNT said:
What if we put Bill in Detroit with Matt Stafford and Patricia in New England do we see different results?
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What if you put coaches from Bill’s “coaching tree” on better teams at the time with more talent? Do you see how silly and foolish this “what if” game is?
 
EL CAPO said:
All things being equal....put Stafford on pats they still win super bowls

Put Brady in lions with Stafford roster they don't

Bill built the roster and system...tho some were parcells leftovers
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It's definitely interesting for sure based on those coaching tree records.
 
What if one of Bill’s disciples would have taken over NE during their insane run? If they won a SB would that add to Bill’s legacy because his “coaching tree” was successful and won a title, or would that just add to the argument it was Brady all along?

If they didn’t win a SB would that mean Bill was a failure because they didn’t, or would it mean Brady wasn’t the reason they won when they did with Bill?
 
jedi ninja said:
What if one of Bill’s disciples would have taken over NE during their insane run? If they won a SB would that add to Bill’s legacy because his “coaching tree” was successful and won a title? If they didn’t win a SB would that mean Bill was a failure because they didn’t, or would it mean Brady wasn’t the reason they won when they did with Bill?
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That's a good question. I think it has more to do with Tom. Jmo.
 
Imo saying it's all Brady is like saying aj mccarron was responsible for Alabama winning when he was there

The only difference is Bill didn't succeed when Brady left.....but the thing is they didn't make the playoffs when Brady was still there ...it's the system went flawed not Brady
 
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