Baseball Hall of Fame 2014

Lareux said:
As long as the people being asked to be subjective are worthy of the vote. That's really my issue with it all. Vin Scully doesn't have a HOF vote, but some dude who hasn't written about baseball for more than a decade has one. That's f'd up and makes no sense.
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I'm not debating the merits of the voters, it really is, and will be, what it currently is.

It sounds like D-Woww wants some stat-based, matter-of-fact system to place HOF players as opposed to allowing the human factor to be in place, the eye-test, intangibles, etc, which I would completely disagree with.
 
hare1994 said:
Morris has gotten over 60% of the vote for several of the years. So actually, most writers do think he should be in the HOF. 75% is just a silly number.
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if you lower it to 60% then it becomes the Hall of Real Good Players. Is that what you want it to be? I want legends in the Hall of Fame. Players that those who watched him will tell their grandchildren about. Not guys who were very good. There is no shame in being a very very good player, but that doesnt make you a HOF'er

I do think Tim Raines needs to get in
 
kjohnson109 said:
I'm not debating the merits of the voters, it really is, and will be, what it currently is.

It sounds like D-Woww wants some stat-based, matter-of-fact system to place HOF players as opposed to allowing the human factor to be in place, the eye-test, intangibles, etc, which I would completely disagree with.
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bingo. you hit on where we disagree. I don't buy the eye test theory at all. The guy's ERA was almost 4. He was an ace, and a horse, there is no doubt about that. But he is not a legend who needs to be enshrined. That is just where we disagree.
 
kjohnson109 said:
I'm not debating the merits of the voters, it really is, and will be, what it currently is.

It sounds like D-Woww wants some stat-based, matter-of-fact system to place HOF players as opposed to allowing the human factor to be in place, the eye-test, intangibles, etc, which I would completely disagree with.
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Oh no, KJ, I agree with you. I'm just saying part of the reason that the system is broken is because a lot of those with votes really don't know what they're talking about. They could easily give those votes to people who actually know what they are talking about, and the system would get better almost instantly.
 
D-Woww said:
bingo. you hit on where we disagree. I don't buy the eye test theory at all. The guy's ERA was almost 4. He was an ace, and a horse, there is no doubt about that. But he is not a legend who needs to be enshrined. That is just where we disagree.
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Anything under 4 in the AL was considered great in that era.
 
As I said in an in game a few days ago...anyone who thinks Tim Tebow is, and should be a starting QB in the NFL shouldn't have their opinion on anything taken seriously. This thread may back that up. :cool:
 
You're criticizing Morris for his ERA yet there is someone in the HOF with a 3.80 ERA. And Morris got nearly 70% one year, just about 45 votes shy. So now we are splitting hairs.
 
D-Woww said:
bingo. you hit on where we disagree. I don't buy the eye test theory at all. The guy's ERA was almost 4. He was an ace, and a horse, there is no doubt about that. But he is not a legend who needs to be enshrined. That is just where we disagree.
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I believe golf may have a system similar to this.
 
D-Woww said:
60 year old baseball fans who seemingly only remember his dominating days are more than welcome to disagree
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Just think Dan, in 20 years from now, you can have the exact same debate with people over Roy Halladay...
 
D-Woww said:
if you lower it to 60% then it becomes the Hall of Real Good Players. Is that what you want it to be? I want legends in the Hall of Fame. Players that those who watched him will tell their grandchildren about. Not guys who were very good. There is no shame in being a very very good player, but that doesnt make you a HOF'er

I do think Tim Raines needs to get in
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If we're going by the "tales to the grandkids" metric, Morris and Schilling are going to leave Tom Glavine in the dust. Those tales are mostly written in October.
 
D-Woww said:
Is Johan Santana a HOFer?
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No, but who is saying he is? His career is nothing close to Jack's career. Are we just grabbing guys arbitrarily now and asking if they are HOFers?

Is Andy Pettitte a HOFer may have been a better question to ask.
 
Pettitte and Santana are polar opposites, and both have merit for debate. One guy was a workhorse for a long time, while not being overpowering or spectacular.

Santana was the most dominating pitcher in baseball for about a 4 year stretch, and then got derailed by injuries.

These are all guys who will be debated. Whats better, a guy who wins back to back Cy Young's and is completely unhittable for a short time, or a guy who plays for 16 years and is always steady adn reliable.

I don't think either are HOF'ers actually. Halladay maybe, Pettitte maybe, Santana no
 
D-Woww said:
Pettitte and Santana are polar opposites, and both have merit for debate. One guy was a workhorse for a long time, while not being overpowering or spectacular.

Santana was the most dominating pitcher in baseball for about a 4 year stretch, and then got derailed by injuries.

These are all guys who will be debated. Whats better, a guy who wins back to back Cy Young's and is completely unhittable for a short time, or a guy who plays for 16 years and is always steady adn reliable.

I don't think either are HOF'ers actually. Halladay maybe, Pettitte maybe, Santana no
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No, they don't. Santana has no merit for a HOF consideration, outside of the 4 year stretch you mention.

Pettitte was ridiculous in the playoffs, as well as having 256 career wins. He may not be a HOFer, but he will get legitimate consideration. I would be very surprised if Santana got more than a few "yes" votes ever.
 
See, I would put Andy Pettite into the same category as Mike Mussina - good not great. Next year should be a little more straight forward with Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson. The one that will get debated is John Smoltz...
 
hugh613 said:
See, I would put Andy Pettite into the same category as Mike Mussina - good not great. Next year should be a little more straight forward with Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson. The one that will get debated is John Smoltz...
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There's no debate with Smoltz imo. He has 200+ wins and 150+ saves. And Smoltz's postseason stats are just awesome (15-4 with a mid 2's ERA) I agree next year will be more straight forward, I just think all 3 of those guys on the ballot for the first time, get in. They may not the 1st year because of the broken system and the idiots voting, but they all deserve to be in.

Agree with that Pettitte and Mussina comparison as well, it's a very good comparison. Either way, those 2 guys merit some debate for sure, but Johan Santana...not so much.
 
# of Cy Young awards might mean less to me than wins in this debate. You're basing candidacy for the HOF, which writers vote for, on the number of times a guy won an award from the writers. If we're talking about a guy that wins in a landslide 5x, we're probably not arguing about him (unless he was a cheat), but a couple Cy Youngs are background music. It's also a regular season award, which favors a guy like Glavine. Hell, Morris carried the '84 Tigers on his back, and they gave the Cy to his fucking closer.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Hell, Morris carried the '84 Tigers on his back, and they gave the Cy to his fucking closer.
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To be fair, he was also the MVP.

The thing that the younger members can't seem to appreciate is that a guy like Morris didn't come out after the 6th inning and then have five relievers try to preserve the win...
 
hugh613 said:
tip's working hard on a write-in campaign on behalf of Charles Nagy...
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Dewoww must hate this guy, bulldog with an average ERA and a cruddy WHIP. But do you remember the day he went toe-to-toe with Mussina in the playoffs? Think both guys struck out double digits that day.

Not a Hall of Famer, lol.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Agree with Lareux. Smoltz is a no-brainier HOF to me.
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How sick was that Braves pitching staff in the 90s? 1-3 they had legitimate HOFers, which is completely unheard of, either today or even in baseball history. That has to be the best 1,2,3 punch anyone has ever seen in baseball. If it's not, I'd like to hear who was. They were a joy to watch pitch, whether you were a Braves fan or not.
 
hugh613 said:
To be fair, he was also the MVP.

The thing that the younger members can't seem to appreciate is that a guy like Morris didn't come out after the 6th inning and then have five relievers try to preserve the win...
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Willie winning the Cy, and more outrageously the MVP in 1984, might be the reason I debate baseball honors to this day. A 32-save MVP closer, for crying out loud.
 
Lareux said:
How sick was that Braves pitching staff in the 90s? 1-3 they had legitimate HOFers, which is completely unheard of, either today or even in baseball history. That has to be the best 1,2,3 punch anyone has ever seen in baseball. If it's not, I'd like to hear who was. They were a joy to watch pitch, whether you were a Braves fan or not.
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Don't forget those three or four years when Steve Avery was a solid contributor as well...
 
Lareux said:
How sick was that Braves pitching staff in the 90s? 1-3 they had legitimate HOFers, which is completely unheard of, either today or even in baseball history. That has to be the best 1,2,3 punch anyone has ever seen in baseball. If it's not, I'd like to hear who was. They were a joy to watch pitch, whether you were a Braves fan or not.
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Very sick, and a little amazing they didn't win at least one more WS, even given the "luck" involved in a short series.
 
Lareux said:
How sick was that Braves pitching staff in the 90s? 1-3 they had legitimate HOFers, which is completely unheard of, either today or even in baseball history. That has to be the best 1,2,3 punch anyone has ever seen in baseball. If it's not, I'd like to hear who was. They were a joy to watch pitch, whether you were a Braves fan or not.
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I'll give you at least one. The '54 Indians. Going by memory, team won 111 games in a 154-game season, rotation boasted 3 Hall-of-Famers (Early Wynn, Bob Lemon, and Bob Feller) and one more in the Indians HOF in Mike Garcia. Both Feller and Lemon achieved HOF status despite losing five good years to WWII. Feller, at that point, was an effective 4th starter, but is in the conversation for the best there ever was.
 
Oh, and typical Cleveland, swept in 4 by Willie Mays and the New York Giants. Huge upset.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Very sick, and a little amazing they didn't win at least one more WS, even given the "luck" involved in a short series.
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Yep. And really, imo, the only "free money" situation that has ever actually been truly free money was back in those playoff series with the Braves when they were up 2-0 in a 5 game series (pretty sure it happened a few times). There was really no chance that the Braves, up 2-0, would lose the series with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz pitching the next 3 games. It didn't ever happen, so it's fair to say there was "no chance."

You could basically name the amount you wanted to win and bet it on Game 3...then double up on Game 4 if they lost Game 3....and again double up in Game 5 if they lost Game 4. If I'm not mistaken, they never lost an NLDS series while those 3 were the 1,2,3 on the team, but they certainly didn't lose a 5 game series after going up 2-0.
 
Just went back and checked. The Braves went up 2-0 in the NLDS 4 consecutive years...1995, 1996, 1997, 1998. Only once did they not sweep, but they won all 4 series, and the one they didn't sweep, they won in 4 games. It was literally free money once they were up 2-0.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Dewoww must hate this guy, bulldog with an average ERA and a cruddy WHIP. But do you remember the day he went toe-to-toe with Mussina in the playoffs? Think both guys struck out double digits that day.

Not a Hall of Famer, lol.
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Nah man you got me wrong, I dont hate these guys at all. All I'd say about Nagy is hes not a HOF"er...samae with Morris. Both were horses though and deserve credit for what they did.

I remember the Indians rotation in the mid 90s to a T...of course the Phillies picked Chad Ogea of the bunch to acquire
 
D-Woww said:
Nah man you got me wrong, I dont hate these guys at all. All I'd say about Nagy is hes not a HOF"er...samae with Morris. Both were horses though and deserve credit for what they did.

I remember the Indians rotation in the mid 90s to a T...of course the Phillies picked Chad Ogea of the bunch to acquire
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lol, the Nagy talk is a joke D-Woww...no shit he's not a HOFer. There is no comparison between Nagy and Morris.
 
im aware. im just sayin i dont hate guys like that.

agree on smoltz too. really ashame that he coudlnt get in this year with the other 2
 
Chad Ogea ... Beat Kevin Brown not once, but twice in the '97 Series. Or at least the Indians won those games. And Tribe lost the series. How does that happen?
 
D-Woww said:
im aware. im just sayin i dont hate guys like that.

agree on smoltz too. really ashame that he coudlnt get in this year with the other 2
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Yeah, it would have been fitting had the 3 of them gone in together.
 
With 300-game winners becoming a dinosaur, and with presumably more stock in sabermetrics when he's eligible in a few years, I think Doc stands a good shot. If they want to hang on to that 300-win thing, or even close to it, they're going to be waiting a while to put another pitcher in. Was just looking at that wins list. The aforementioned Mussina with 270, Moyer with 269 (amazing), Pettitte 256, Morris 254. Among actives, 37-year-old Tim Hudson has 205, and an "old" 32-year-old C.C. has 205. Doc finished with 203. 200 might be the new 300, but it's still kind of a cruel measure of a starting pitcher.
 
Lareux said:
Just went back and checked. The Braves went up 2-0 in the NLDS 4 consecutive years...1995, 1996, 1997, 1998. Only once did they not sweep, but they won all 4 series, and the one they didn't sweep, they won in 4 games. It was literally free money once they were up 2-0.
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Wow. I most probably took a stab on the dog in some of those 12 losers.
 
tipyerbartender said:
Wow. I most probably took a stab on the dog in some of those 12 losers.
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Yeah, amazing stat isn't it? I know that the term "free money" is sometimes thrown out there, probably in jest most times, but in this case it truly was free money. I couldn't have imagined any team being able to beat Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz 3 games in a row with their backs against the wall down 2-0 in a 5 game series.

I was in college during these years, and we most definitely got our piece of that free money in the aforementioned years. I can remember us just waiting until the Braves went up 2-0, which was almost a lock in and of itself...and once they did we basically bet what we wanted to win on that 3rd game (our college bookie had a max of like 200 or 300, so it wasn't like we were rolling in cash after winning). Only once did we have to double down for Game 4. It was simply amazing.
 
hugh613 said:
See, I would put Andy Pettite into the same category as Mike Mussina - good not great. Next year should be a little more straight forward with Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson. The one that will get debated is John Smoltz...
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How stupid that no one gets in unanimous or whatever?

Baseball sometimes has some stupid "rules"
 
tipyerbartender said:
# of Cy Young awards might mean less to me than wins in this debate. You're basing candidacy for the HOF, which writers vote for, on the number of times a guy won an award from the writers. If we're talking about a guy that wins in a landslide 5x, we're probably not arguing about him (unless he was a cheat), but a couple Cy Youngs are background music. It's also a regular season award, which favors a guy like Glavine. Hell, Morris carried the '84 Tigers on his back, and they gave the Cy to his fucking closer.
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yea tip but a pitcher can be lights out, get no run support and play on shitty teams.....and still be great

post season is cool and should be taken into some consideration.....but some things(especially pitchers) are out of their control
 
Game 6 1995 World Series

[h=3]Atlanta Braves[/h] Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · PRE · LINK · ?

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<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><thead>[TR="class: normal_text"]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Pitching[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]R[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]ER[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]ERA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Pit[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Str[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Ctct[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]StS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]StL[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]FB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]LD[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Unk[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GSc[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IS[/TH]
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[TD="align: left"]Tom Glavine, W (2-0)[/TD]
[TD="class: tooltip, align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]109[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.586[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.18[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.3[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="align: left"]Mark Wohlers, S (5)[/TD]
[TD="class: tooltip, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.84[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"][/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]0.169[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.18[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.5[/TD]
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[TD="align: left"]Team Totals[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.00[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]118[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]73[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.755[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.8[/TD]
[/TR]
</tfoot>[/TABLE]



Balks: None.
 
twinkie13 said:
yea tip but a pitcher can be lights out, get no run support and play on shitty teams.....and still be great

post season is cool and should be taken into some consideration.....but some things(especially pitchers) are out of their control
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I can kind of devalue wins a little bit. Also the reason Blyleven shouldn't have had to wait so long. He toiled for many bad teams, and toiled well.
 
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