The State of NFL Quarterbacks-Discuss

[B.A.R.]

Lets preface. Keep it professional in here. No name calling of players. No bashing each other.

This NFL season has shown us a different kind of NFL. We have two teams that are head and shoulders above the rest and a very select second tier. The middle and bottom tier's prolly encompasses 75 percent of the league minimum. Now, we have all talked about this..but something else we have touched on briefly but I find amazing is the state of QB's in the NFL.

Great Quarterbacks
-Brady
-Manning

All-Pro Quarterbacks
-Romo
-Palmer
-Roethlisberger
-Favre
-Manning

Average to Above Average
-Brees
-Hasselbeck
-Kitna
-Young
-Bulger
-McNabb


The Rest
-McNair
-Edwards/Losman
-Smith
-Cutler
-Harrington/Leftwich
-Shaub
-Leinart/Warner
-Rivers
-Jackson/Holcomb
-Griese/Grossman
-Delhomme/Carr
-Garrard
-Pennington
-Anderson
-Garcia




I may have missed one, but you get the point. Of the last catgory, you have guys like Garcia and Cutler/Rivers that show flashes at times this year. Others are quite horrible and wouldn't have started in the lague many years ago. These guys have jobs..but why? What is going on in both the development of QB's in NFL and their growth in college. Everyyear in the college season we hear about the saviors coming out for NFL teams but lets look at this list again. Other than Vince and Romo, who has deveoloped into a quality starter the last several years? I mean a consistent starter. Its a sad state of football on both levels. I don't think its the talent. Is is the teaching at a college level as the college game becomes more and more complex? Is it just the bad teams in NFL slowing some of these guys down?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[brewer]

1 brady
----
2 peyton manning
---
3 carson
4 mcnabb
----
5 romo
6 brees
----
7 VY
8 kitna
----
9 hassel
10 favre
11 rivers
12 big ben
13 eli
14 derek anderson
----
15 garcia
16 bulger
17 cutler
18 campbell
19 schaub
---
i dont care after this ...

 

[Throwback420]

No love for Russell ?

 

[Joe Public]

So you're saying that I can't talk about black quarterbacks and how they make me feel inadequate as a man?

Well, I mean, in that case, what's the point?

 

[Joe Public]

Seriously, this is a very interesting topic, actually, something I've thought about for two years now.

The last two years have really been a huge time of transition at the QB position in the league as a whole. Part of it is injury, but part of it is the new generation and I think between that and the coaching change overs, that's one of the things that makes the NFL so hard to get a handle on.

In the course of the last two years, the following teams have had at least one change to their starting QB.

Cleveland
Baltimore
Miami
Buffalo
NYJ
Tennessee
Houston
Jax
Denver
KC
Oakland
Philly
Washington
Dallas
TB
Carolina
Atlanta
Chicago
Minnesota
SF
Seattle
St. Louis
Arizona

That's 23 of 32 teams that have had significant QB turnover at one point or another and, in some cases, multiple times. And that's excluding both SD and NO who changed starters at the beginning of last season.

71% of the league has QB issues at one time or another, I think it's no wonder there's so much flux in the league.

It also sets up a very interesting dynamic of who's going to survive and succeed, and who's going to fail--at a good part of that, at times, doesn't even fall on the QB.

Alex Smith makes huge strides with Norv Turner, regresses without him. Derek Anderson can't even make the roster in Baltimore--a team still struggling with a QB, plays awful under Jeff Davidson, then almost doesn't make the roster under ChudwhoselastnameIcan'tspell, and now, suddenly has one of the best QB ratings in the league. And he's still only keeping the seat warm for Quinn which means another team will have a significant QB change next season.

This is a big, big deal right now in the league.

 

[B.A.R.]

Brewer, I don't care about your personal rankings. This is a 'discussion' about why quarterback play seems to be slipping in recent years.

Throwback, he hasn't started yet in league. Once he is in for half a season of so we can make judgements on him.

 

[B.A.R.]

Joe great post, thatas what I was looking for.

 

[Joe Public]

Thanks.

I mean, I'm assuming you meant post #4.

 

[phatprep3]

BAR, have been here for a long time and love reading your stuff and this is a great question. Obviously being qb is the hardest position in all of sports. Even when you go back in time you will notice that at any given period in football there has only been a handful of good qbs. I would also say the evolution of football becoming more of a passing game has caused qb play to be worse. Never have Qb's had so much responsiblity.

At the current moment i would mostly agree with your list. If you look at the two top names on the list they have also had the most consistent offensive line while they have played. If Palmer had either of those offensive lines he might not be as good but he would be a hell of a lot better. Those top 2 have also played for two of the best front offices in football that have built great teams, spent money when needed, and haven't been scared to cut people.

The middle of the list are basically up and comers besides favre (who could play 5 more years with the current state of the nfl.) Eli is good but makes two bad decisions a game, Romo's pocket presence sets him apart, Roethlisberger has a great running game all the time, Brees is accurate but doesnt have near the arm strength as Brady or Manning, and Mcnabb is just getting old and has a bad knee.

Mostly I would say how the game has evolved though. More passing, better athletes on defense. With the athletes now it makes it easier for coaches to isolate the weaknesses qbs have.

I live in Philly and I'm an Eagles fan. Listening to people complain about Mcnabb year after year is horrible because for the past couple years how many qbs have been better than him. Now we are probably going to trade him in the off season and have Kevin Kolb starting. It's sickening.

Also, I'm a big believer that many of the qbs that come up now can't handle the pressure do to them being gods most their life and babied from the day they picked up the football.

 

[signalcaller]

I think some of it has to do with some teams having that show me what you got mentality. They draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round, and theres pressure to start him if the previous QB hasnt been doing well. This causes them to rush the rookie QB in there vs defenses hes really not prepared for. Causes him to look like shit and depending on what his mental state is, maybe lose confidence in his ability. Who knows. Some organizations maybe dont know how to groom their future QB's into being the next "guy". Shannahan messed it up with Griese when he should have started Bubby Brister after Elway left. Greise was forced in, didnt do well and wore out his welcome in Denver. So many examples like this

 

[brewer]

by me putting my rankings i thought that was a form of discussing ...

 

[B.A.R.]

Thanks.

I mean, I'm assuming you meant post #4.

LOL-yes

 

[signalcaller]

Brewer what are your thoughts on all the Bears failures at grooming a QB into their guy. Is it just bad drafting, bad coaching, or just lack of talent overall. What was the situation with Cade McNown. Wasnt he supposed to be the guy? Was it just him burning out or was he just not very good? I really dont remember all too well

 

[Throwback420]

Young is winner I want to see what the Kid can do in the playoffs

 

[B.A.R.]

by me putting my rankings i thought that was a form of discussing ...

Well, basially, the first post in this thread was a general consensus to show how poor the QB play in the league is. I could have just said everyone is average after the top 2. Basically just trying to see what peoples opinions are on the downfall of QB play in the NFL. Who.what is to blame. Is this from the college level, the high-school level or the pro-level? And why is this?

 

[B.A.R.]

I think some of it has to do with some teams having that show me what you got mentality. They draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round, and theres pressure to start him if the previous QB hasnt been doing well. This causes them to rush the rookie QB in there vs defenses hes really not prepared for. Causes him to look like shit and depending on what his mental state is, maybe lose confidence in his ability. Who knows. Some organizations maybe dont know how to groom their future QB's into being the next "guy". Shannahan messed it up with Griese when he should have started Bubby Brister after Elway left. Greise was forced in, didnt do well and wore out his welcome in Denver. So many examples like this

Spot on. Back in the day you hel the clipboard for 16 games and were groomed. It was a true 3 year process. Now, with the state of QB play and pressure to win in FA era they get rushed in.

 

[Joe Public]

Again, seriously, what I think is interesting here is that this seems to be the official transition to the next generation of QBs.

And, it seems, generally in any given generation you get about four to six guys.

Right now that seems to be Manning, Brady then maybe McNabb and Palmer.

Problem is, both McNabb and Palmer don't seem to be either fully back from their knee injuries or they don't have the people around them they need (or both). It doesn't make them any less threatening, but like Marino later in his career or Elway in the middle of his--or even Farve for the last couple of years, it doesn't make their teams formidable, just them on certain days.

The question is, who ends up on that second tier and who can stay there--meaning, who can both stay healthy and keep a team around them.

It appears Romo has that possibility, same with Big Ben.

That might fill out your four to six.

Then you have the guys who might have the potential to take their place:

VY
Cutler
Rivers (thanks in part to LT and Gates)
Eli
Bulger

But again, it's not just on them. Bulger was one of the best QBs in the league last year, but nobody paid attention to it and in the end it didn't matter because the Rams weren't very good. Eli goes up and down, VY's got less to work with this year than last, Rivers might come apart without LT on the roster.

 

[B.A.R.]

BAR, have been here for a long time and love reading your stuff and this is a great question. Obviously being qb is the hardest position in all of sports. Even when you go back in time you will notice that at any given period in football there has only been a handful of good qbs. I would also say the evolution of football becoming more of a passing game has caused qb play to be worse. Never have Qb's had so much responsiblity.

At the current moment i would mostly agree with your list. If you look at the two top names on the list they have also had the most consistent offensive line while they have played. If Palmer had either of those offensive lines he might not be as good but he would be a hell of a lot better. Those top 2 have also played for two of the best front offices in football that have built great teams, spent money when needed, and haven't been scared to cut people.

The middle of the list are basically up and comers besides favre (who could play 5 more years with the current state of the nfl.) Eli is good but makes two bad decisions a game, Romo's pocket presence sets him apart, Roethlisberger has a great running game all the time, Brees is accurate but doesnt have near the arm strength as Brady or Manning, and Mcnabb is just getting old and has a bad knee.

Mostly I would say how the game has evolved though. More passing, better athletes on defense. With the athletes now it makes it easier for coaches to isolate the weaknesses qbs have.

I live in Philly and I'm an Eagles fan. Listening to people complain about Mcnabb year after year is horrible because for the past couple years how many qbs have been better than him. Now we are probably going to trade him in the off season and have Kevin Kolb starting. It's sickening.

Also, I'm a big believer that many of the qbs that come up now can't handle the pressure do to them being gods most their life and babied from the day they picked up the football.

Excellent points

 

[brewer]

qbs dont put in the time like brady does, nor have his experience, skilled peoples, or coaches.

 

[Joe Public]

I live in Philly and I'm an Eagles fan. Listening to people complain about Mcnabb year after year is horrible because for the past couple years how many qbs have been better than him. Now we are probably going to trade him in the off season and have Kevin Kolb starting. It's sickening.

It's only somewhat related, but there's a very real chance that if the Eagles get rid of McNabb we will have years of "searching for the next" guy in Philly.

Also, bringing up the O-line is a very, very good point.

In Palmer's best years, his O-line was dominant. Now that they're a mess, he's not as scary.

The support Donovan has gotten from what should be a dominant O-line this year has been, at times, the worst line play of the weekend.

So that both Indy and NE (particularly NE this year) have had such outstanding line play shouldn't be overlooked when lauding their QBs.

 

[brewer]

real good pt about the o-line and overall protection of the qb. dunno why i left that out.

 

[Throwback420]

Kolb lol

 

[Joe Public]

Kolb lol

Don't you start with us. Raider Nation vs. the 700 Level would be the war to end all wars.

=)

 

[Throwback420]

It's just It would be sad to see Philly go from McNabb to Kolb, come on now.

If McNabb does get traded where would it be to ? I hope it's not KC

 

[Joe Public]

For the record, I like McNabb--a lot. I don't want to see him go.

However, something isn't right with the Eagles' offense and it hasn't been for three seasons now. There have only been two times when it was right, really, and there were two variables that made it so. One was TO, the other was Garcia.

But neither of them, really, were why the offense ran better.

The offense ran better because in both cases, the offense was called differently.

I maintain the theory that McNabb is a great practice player. I have no source on this, no experience with it, but is only one of two explanations for why Andy calls plays the way he does when McNabb is running the show. Because Andy trusts him too much, and has the ball run through him too much. Its as if Phil Jackson gave the the ball to Kobe Bryant every single trip down the floor in the last two minutes of the game and always told him to shoot, every time. No matter how good Kobe was, as a defense you would have the upper hand because you'd know who the other team was forcing to make the play.

The only other explanation for the way Andy puts it all through Donovan (as opposed to running it through Westbrook like he should, like Vermiel did with Faulk in St. Louis to a SB championship) is because Reid came up under Holmgren and Walsh and saw how, particularly the latter, dumped things on their QB.

GB always lived and died with Farve, it's the reason for their wild swings in wins every year. When he has talent around him, suddenly they win, when he doesn't it falls on him to do way too much.

But if you look at someone like Brady or Manning, they spread it around. Belichick would off-load a lot of the work to Dillion for years, now he's got Moss. Manning had EJ to balance it out and there were days where EJ was the only reason they won a game, and now Wayne has come into his own to balance out Harrison.

Combine that with the line play they're getting and you see why Indy and NE are far more consistent. Their QBs aren't vastly superior to Philly's, neither are their O-lines, but the way they're used and the way their offense is balanced makes them much more dangerous, and by extension, much more successful.

 

[sportfanatic71]

IMO...

Top Tier
-Brady
-Manning

2nd Tier
-Palmer
-Roethlisberger
-Favre

3rd Tier
Romo
Campbell
Mcnabb
Young
Brees

Like brewer said i dont care after that

 

[Wikeman]

I am in awe over most of the QBs in the league. Coverage is tight and the speed of movement is fast, so it's a miracle to me how few interceptions are thrown (some are deflections or risk taking at the end of a game).

Being european I am used to soccer, where they don't seem able to kick a round ball inside 10 square meters from an open position during 90 minutes. My interest in soccer has been dwindling the past years.

 

[phatprep3]

Mcnabb always catches a bad wrap. I mean he's been a top 5 quarterback for years now. The first year of TO the team was completely different. He's had one good receiver in his tenure in Philadelphia and that year they made it to the superbowl. Obviously the year following had some unique circumstances but he's been remarkably consistent considering the state of the NFL. The Eagles organization wasted some of the best years Mcnabb had because they had plenty of cap space and decided to not spend it.