The case for and against Utah getting the AP #1 vote

M

majent

Oklahoma Sooners
The case FOR:

1) They beat Michigan in Ann Arbor

2) They beat Oregon State, who was in contention for the PAC-10 crown until the final week, and Oregon State had a major win over USC, the only team to beat USC. Oregon State won their bowl and finished 9-4.

3) They beat TCU who finished 11-2 and will likely finish in the Top 10. TCU beat Boise State, the only other undefeated team in the country aside from Utah going into the bowls.

4) They dominated 'Bama, who was 12-1 coming into the Sugar Bowl and their only loss was to Florida, who will play for the BCS title on Thursday.

5) They went undefeated in the MWC, a conference on the rise who was 6-2 vs. the PAC-10 this yr, and the Utes finished 13-0

6) They proved by beating Oregon State and 'Bama that they can "play with the big boys". Oregon State was one of the best PAC-10 teams and 'Bama was undefeated until the final Saturday of the season. If beating these guys does not mean anything, what does?


The case AGAINST:

1) They were fortunate that this was the worst Michigan team in decades

2) They beat Oregon State up in Salt Lake City. Oregon State was exposed by Oregon in their final game of the season and only finished 3rd in the PAC-10, so in retrospect, the win doesn't look all that impressive.

3) They beat TCU up in Salt Lake City, and any reasonable person who was watching the game knew that TCU dominated for 59 mins of the game.
It was a fluky win.

4) They were fortunate to play 'Bama after the Crimson Tide had their national title bubble burst the final Sat of the season vs. Florida. People can say that 'Bama had no nat'l title expectations coming into the season, but believe me, they had nat'l title expectations when they went to Atlanta to play Florida and they were completely deflated for the Sugar Bowl, not to mention missing their arguably their best player (O-Lineman Andre Smith, a certain top 10 NFL draft pick this April).

5) Outside of Utah, TCU, and maybe BYU, the MWC was very average. BYU lost their bowl. Air Force lost their bowl. Colorado State won their bowl but still finished only 7-6 on the season, and only 4-4 in the MWC. The conference got tons of play for beating up on some PAC-10 cellar dwellars. The MWC was overvalued in retrospect.

6) If they had to play Oklahoma'a or Florida's schedule, they likely would have lost at least 1 game, if not more. Playing Oregon State in Salt Lake City and a 'Bama team that didn't give a crap about the Sugar Bowl is not as impressive as it might seem.


Personally, I am totally on the fence about Utah. One part of me believes they deserve the AP #1 spot regardless of what happens on Thursday. Another part of me thinks that everything lined up perfectly for Utah and no way are they the #1 team in the country so why give them the AP.

I know how VegasKyle feels, how 'bout the rest of you???
 
I feel that Utah deserves the #1 AP ranking; hell, I thought they deserved to be playing this Thur nite.

My question is this: if an undefeated non-BCS team can't finish #1 in a year when:

there are NO undefeated BCS teams
the undefeated non-BCS team beat 2 top 10 teams
also beat a couple others on the fringe of the top 25

When can they? If the answer truly is 'Never', then man-up and have the BCS rules say that and quit relying on end of the year politics that keep these teams out. It is SOOOOOO lame. From what I can tell...no other sport does this...on the entire planet.
 
Horses, remember that the AP does its own thing. They obviously voted USC #1 in 2003 even though it was USC and LSU in the BCS title game. The AP was so disgusted about the BCS process that they took legal action in having the BCS remove the AP poll from the equation. I believe that was in 2002.

The AP poll has a benefit right now that the BCS formula did not have. The AP poll can figure the Sugar Bowl win over Alabama into its opinion of Utah. The BCS formula, when deciding Oklahoma #1 and Florida #2, did not have that benefit.

If the AP poll does not vote Utah #1 in their final poll, then all of you who bash the BCS for their bias towards the power conferences need to shift some of that blame over to the AP voters as well because they will be just as guilty, if not more so, knowing that they have just witnessed the Utah domination of 'Bama, and are not obligated like the BCS to have either OU or Florida #1 after Thursday night.

:shake:
 
Horses, remember that the AP does its own thing. They obviously voted USC #1 in 2003 even though it was USC and LSU in the BCS title game. The AP was so disgusted about the BCS process that they took legal action in having the BCS remove the AP poll from the equation. I believe that was in 2002.

Yeah, I know, I don't live under a rock.

The AP poll has a benefit right now that the BCS formula did not have. The AP poll can figure the Sugar Bowl win over Alabama into its opinion of Utah. The BCS formula, when deciding Oklahoma #1 and Florida #2, did not have that benefit.

Solid point.

If the AP poll does not vote Utah #1 in their final poll, then all of you who bash the BCS for their bias towards the power conferences need to shift some of that blame over to the AP voters as well because they will be just as guilty, if not more so, knowing that they have just witnessed the Utah domination of 'Bama, and are not obligated like the BCS to have either OU or Florida #1 after Thursday night.

I certainly agree that if I was an AP voter, I would vote Utah #1. (this does not mean that I think they would be favored over any other team on a neutral field; it means that I think this team did everything that it possibly could do, and what they did was enough to represent a national title in a year when there was no undefeated BCS team).
 
horses said:
Horses, remember that the AP does its own thing. They obviously voted USC #1 in 2003 even though it was USC and LSU in the BCS title game. The AP was so disgusted about the BCS process that they took legal action in having the BCS remove the AP poll from the equation. I believe that was in 2002.

Yeah, I know, I don't live under a rock.
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Haha, came out wrong on my part. I know you know, you are a CFB guru as evidenced by your win in my ESPN pool and all of your great posts ;)

What I meant to say is that the AP has a chance to make a statement for the little guy, who in this case is a Utah team who has beaten some of the big guys and really shouldn't be considered a little guy any longer.

I stand by what I said earlier that if the AP does not use this opportunity to put Utah #1 on Friday morning, then they are every bit as "bad" and/or "corrupt" as the BCS. There is no getting around this, given they are a separate entity and can do whatever the heck they please.
 
Some great points majent. If the AP doesn't give it to Utah this year I don't want to ever hear another AP voter complain about the system. This is their opportunity.

Horses--I don't think Utah would be favoured over a handful of teams as well. The fact is I don't think many other champions of other sports would be favored at the end of the year against other opponents either. Does anybody really think the Giants would have been favored over the Patriots had they played the Super Bowl a 2nd time last year? Doubtful. That's the reason they play. If two top 10 wins, 4 top 25 wins, and wins over 6 bowl teams doesn't get you a NC then fuck it.

Great article from Feinstein today in the WP.

By John Feinstein
Special to washingtonpost.com
Tuesday, January 6, 2009; 1:38 AM
The following is an open letter to the 72 members of the media who are entitled to cast votes in the Associated Press college football poll.

Dear Colleagues:

I am writing to urge you -- no, implore you -- to cast your final ballot of the season with one team and one only team ranked No. 1: the University of Utah.

I say this not to demean the performance of Southern California, Texas or the winner of Thursday's Oklahoma-Florida game. All are fine teams that have had outstanding seasons. They have, however, one thing that Utah does not have.

A loss.

All of us know that in competition anyone -- whether an individual or a team -- who does not lose once is the champion. It's really pretty simple: If no one beats you, then you are the winner. You are No. 1. You go home with the first-place trophy.

There is only one sport on earth where this is not always the case: Division 1-A college football or, as the pretentious folks at the NCAA now like to call it, the football bowl subdivision. It's worth noting that those same NCAA tools like to call Division 1-AA the football championship subdivision. In other words, a team -- this year it was Richmond -- wins a 16-team tournament and earns an actual championship, as opposed to a bunch of computers and voters getting together to select a champion.
Championships, as we all know, are supposed to be won, not selected. That's one reason why figure skating, though it may be athletic and at times sublimely aesthetic isn't a sport. The same goes for diving or any alleged competition that involves judging. Chess is a sport; gymnastics is not.

Sadly, the preening, hypocrital presidents who run the so-called Bowl Championship Series have turned college football into figure skating. Maybe next year at season's end, coaches who believe their teams have a case to be national champion can sit together in a "kiss and cry," area, hold hands and wait for the judges' scores to be posted. Wouldn't you just love to see Mack Brown and Bob Stoops holding hands while they wait?

There are many reasons for all of you to cast your votes for the Utes on Thursday night after the final game is finally over (the over-under on the time of that game is 3 hours 53 minutes, unless there's overtime).

It isn't just because they are the only one of the 119 so-called BCS teams that finished undefeated. It isn't even because they went to New Orleans last Friday and handily beat an Alabama team that spent the last month of the regular season ranked No. 1 in every poll. It isn't just that they beat Alabama with considerably more ease than Florida did in December; the Gators had to muster every bit of Tim Tebow's swagger to come from behind and beat the Tide in the fourth quarter. The Utes never trailed in the Sugar Bowl. They scored on their first three possessions, and when Alabama closed to 21-17 early in the third quarter and stole momentum, Utah's players took a deep breath and took back control of the game.

Yet that's still not the reason to vote for Utah. I'm sure some of you who cover the SEC or The Big 12 or even the Pac-10 (which went 1-6 against Utah's Mountain West Conference before going 5-0 in bowl games, four of them against BCS opponents) may argue about strength of schedule. Those who cover the ACC, the Big East or the Big Ten can sit this part of the argument out.

First of all, the strength-of-schedule argument is bogus. How tough did Texas Tech and Oklahoma State prove to be in the postseason? Beyond that, consider this: Do you think anyone from a BCS conference is going to start a home-and-home with Utah -- or Boise State or TCU or Brigham Young -- anytime soon? No. The BCS schools would rather schedule Coastal Carolina and Wofford and Pacific (to name a few teams that played BCS powers this year) than schedule Utah, especially on the road. Michigan did deign to play the Utes at home and we all know how that turned out. In retrospect, it might have been one of Michigan's better performances all fall.

The fact that teams from the ACC, Big Ten and Big East get automatic bids to BCS games is yet another condemnation of the system. Automatic bids are fine in college basketball, where there are 65 spots available and more than half go to at-large teams. To give more than half the available bids on an automatic basis when there are only 10 spots available is a joke.

Virginia Tech and Cincinnati deserved to be in the Orange Bowl about as much as Boise State and TCU deserved to have to play in the Poinsettia Bowl before Christmas day. Those bowls should have been reversed. And please don't cite Cincinnati's 11-2 record going into the game. The Bearcats best win was over a Pittsburgh team that couldn't score a single point in its bowl game. The one time Cincinnati ventured out to play a ranked team it got shellacked by 26 point at Oklahoma. As for Virginia Tech, its four losses included one to East Carolina, which couldn't hold off a 6-6 Kentucky team in its bowl game, and one to Boston College, which also lost to a 6-6 team ¿ storied loser Vanderbilt, at that -- in its bowl. Enough said.

As for the Big Ten, has anyone noticed that it really doesn't play much football anymore? After the Fiesta Bowl it finished 1-6 in bowls, the only win in an Iowa victory over a South Carolina team whose 63-year-old coach is by far the best quarterback wearing the school colors. The Gamecocks finished the season on a three-game losing streak, the losses by a combined score of 118-30. Why Steve Spurrier wants to keep watching this is beyond me.

Sorry, I digress.

While the case for the Utes as the No. 1 team can be made based on record, on their win over Alabama, on BCS teams' refusal to play them on the road and on the remarkable mediocrity of three of six BCS conferences (not to mention Notre Dame which is reveling in a 7-6 record; boy is that Charlie Weis a coaching genius), that's not why you should vote for them.

The reason to vote for Utah is simple: This is the one and only way you can stand up to the BCS bullies -- the university presidents, commissioners, athletic directors and the TV networks who enable them -- and, to renew a catch phrase, just say no. Say no to this horrible, hypocritical, feed-the-big-boys system. Say no to the idea that fair competition doesn't matter. Say no to all the hype surrounding the power conferences and power teams. To co-opt yet another catch phrase, say yes to change.

Trust me, your vote matters. It will infuriate the winner of Oklahoma-Florida to only be a split national champion. You can bet the winning coach and all the big conference apologists will be ripping you guys as media-know-nothings who just don't understand football

That's good. Stand up and be proud. The old saying that you judge a man by his enemies will never have more validity than if you have the guts to refuse to be abused again. Don't study any strength of schedule and don't be wowed if one of the quarterbacks puts up 500 yards or scores 60 points Thursday night.

Do what's right. Vote for Utah because the Utes beat every team they were allowed to play and because everything about the BCS is rancid and corrupt. If you are part of the system -- and you are if you go along like sheep and vote the Florida-Oklahoma winner No. 1 -- then you're responsible for the system.

Surely you want no part in this system. This is your chance to be free of it, to stand up and do something that will be remembered, to do something for which you'll be proud, years from now, to tell your children and grandchildren you did because it needed to be done.

To quote one of the corporations that funds the BCS itself, just do it. I promise you will be glad that you did, and years from now, when the world is finally rid of the BCS, the rest of us will be, too.
 
The AP doesn't stand to profit like the BCS does, based on the outcome of the subsequent vote; that is one difference that has to be acknowledged.

I won't bother getting into what is bad or corrupt, as I'm not sure those words apply and even if I did, I couldn't prove corruption; I just think the BCS is a very lame way to determine a NC when it basically eliminates about 45% of Div I teams before even one snap of the ball. As far as the AP voters go, yes, it is their chance to make a statement, but let's face it...they are no prize either. How much football do they watch. How many knew who Brian Johnson was before a few days ago? That being said, what you're not touching on, is that the BCS drives the AP. Get rid of the BCS and implement a short playoff and the AP goes away (or at the very least, become irrelevant, just like cbb).
 
the only thing that bothers me about the article is that he makes it sound more like jury nullification.

they should vote utah number one simply because they deserve it , not because they are making a statement about the system.
 
horses said:
That being said, what you're not touching on, is that the BCS drives the AP.
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I don't understand this statement. The AP is one of the original polls of college football and is the only holdover remaining from the days of yesteryear. Does the AP drive the BCS, or does the AP exist to give a rightful team the #1 ranking at the end of the bowl season regardless of what the BCS does, ala 2003 with USC?

I know it has aligned itself with the BCS in terms of who's #1 in 9 of the 10 yrs that the BCS has existed. Does that mean that the BCS has gotten it right in 9 of the past 10 yrs? or does it mean that the BCS drives the AP?

If the latter is the case, what would explain 2003 with the AP's dissent of taking USC when the BCS had LSU as its champ?
 
horses said:
The AP doesn't stand to profit like the BCS does, based on the outcome of the subsequent vote; that is one difference that has to be acknowledged.

I won't bother getting into what is bad or corrupt, as I'm not sure those words apply and even if I did, I couldn't prove corruption; I just think the BCS is a very lame way to determine a NC when it basically eliminates about 45% of Div I teams before even one snap of the ball. As far as the AP voters go, yes, it is their chance to make a statement, but let's face it...they are no prize either. How much football do they watch. How many knew who Brian Johnson was before a few days ago? That being said, what you're not touching on, is that the BCS drives the AP. Get rid of the BCS and implement a short playoff and the AP goes away (or at the very least, become irrelevant, just like cbb).
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That's a great point. It's also why many consider the BCS a corrupt system. It favors the heavyweights because it believes that will garner the largest financial windfall.

If the AP, with nothing to gain financially, aligns itself with the BCS this season when only one undefeated stands, the AP must be considered an accessory to this "crime" that many call the BCS. If that's indeed the case, then we've got much bigger problems on our hands now because even the independent entity of writers is endorsing the #1 team being a 1-loss team from a power-conference over an undefeated team from a "middle-tier" conference and that just perpetuates the perceived "unfairness" of the system even more. In 2008 we're still dealing with the injustices in college football and there won't seem to be an end to it if the AP does not vote Utah #1 on Friday morning.
 
vegaskyle said:
the only thing that bothers me about the article is that he makes it sound more like jury nullification.

they should vote utah number one simply because they deserve it , not because they are making a statement about the system.
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certainly agree with that. worse part about the whole deal is that if their name was duke or baylor they'd be #1 w/out question and that makes 0 sense.
 
Blue_Chip said:
For every Utah '08, there's a Hawaii '07.
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they beat enough bowl teams to earn a split of #1--

They beat BAMA by a similar score what Florida beat them--

beat TCU-BYU and Oregon state?

undefeated in this conference is tough--

granted the winner of the florida game is #1--

Utah would be # 1(B) like a runner up to florida or OU
 
Blue_Chip said:
For every Utah '08, there's a Hawaii '07.
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Completely wrong. Non BCS schools 3-1 in 4 BCS games now. ACC was O for their last 6 BCS bowl games before this years win. If other conferences received as much scrunity for their missteps as non BCS schools nobody would be in the BCS. If tOSU was spelled Utah they'd never be allowed in another BCS game EVER.
 
I think you need to put Utah in as #1 in the AP poll. Doing this would ensure enough hype to hopefully at least get consideration for a playoff format in these bowl games with the top 8 teams.

Horses said it best, with a non bcs school going undefeated with no bcs schools doing that this year if this was not Utah's year when will a program from a non bcs school ever have a chance at pulling a nat championship off?
 
Completely wrong. Non BCS schools 3-1 in 4 BCS games now. ACC was O for their last 6 BCS bowl games before this years win. If other conferences received as much scrunity for their missteps as non BCS schools nobody would be in the BCS. If tOSU was spelled Utah they'd never be allowed in another BCS game EVER.
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I agree with the last sentence, and I think Boise and Utah have made a statement for the small conference to get more respect in the years ahead.
 
vegaskyle said:
the only thing that bothers me about the article is that he makes it sound more like jury nullification.

they should vote utah number one simply because they deserve it , not because they are making a statement about the system.
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agree 100%
 
majent, great post overall, and with all due respect (and don't take this the wrong way) i think your post provides a great overview of an excellent case to be made of utah deserving the number 1 spot----and then that is followed up by a bunch of subjective (and imo very flawed, bullshit) excuses and contradictory information.

here's one example, you say:

The MWC was overvalued in retrospect.

i couldn't disagree more. mwc was UNDERvalued by quite a bit as proved by their unexpected out of conference record as well as getting 5 teams into bowls, going 3-2 in bowls and competing closely in the other two (one of the two was air force who had already beat houston once--tough to win twice) while being the underdog in 4 of 5 and opening near pk'em of the other

i don't know, fuck it...nobody was going to convince me that this team wasn't a top team mid-year, so they're sure as hell not going to convince my stubborn ass now that they don't deserve to be #1. if florida OR oklahoma wins by 70 pts, they still haven't accomplished as much through the course of this season to show me that they deserve it more than utah.

hey jpicks, you just had to get that ohio state dig in there didn't you! dammit! haha
 
and by the way...boise and hawaii and ball state (if they would have won mac champ.) imo are completely different...i think some of the cases being made against this year's utah CAN be made against those schools. it's case by case. i agree with horses though; if this year's utah isn't the team to claim #1, when can a non-bcs school reach it? and if the answer is never, that's a very bad thing for college football imo.
 
Joe, several things aligned for them and it's difficult to ignore that.

Worst Michigan team since I don't know when. Oregon State, TCU, BYU, all go to Salt Lake City. They get Alabama the game after the Tide lose their opportunity to play in the BCS title game, minus arguably their best player. You can't ignore the fact that things aligned perfectly for Utah.

The Michigan win looked nice the day it happened. As the season wore on the win lost its luster because Michigan ended up being a horrible team. An objective observer knows that Oregon St and TCU outplayed them, esp TCU. The Oregon St win lost its luster when Oregon dropped a 65 spot in Corvallis in late November preventing Oregon St from getting to the Rose Bowl. I've already talked about Alabama. I cannot prove that they didn't care about the Sugar Bowl so you'll have to take my word for it. 'Bama did not care about the Sugar Bowl. In their minds the season was over when they lost to Florida. By midseason, they were thinking BCS title game or bust. Utah got them at the right time.

I said I'm on the fence about whether they should get #1 in the AP and nothing will change regardless of tomorrow night's result. That said, I'll be surprised if the AP votes them #1 because if I'm a little concerned about how things lined up for Utah, you can believe the writers are as well. I believe their vote on Friday morning of OU or Florida #1 will reflect their concern.
 
majent said:
Joe, several things aligned for them and it's difficult to ignore that.

Worst Michigan team since I don't know when. Oregon State, TCU, BYU, all go to Salt Lake City. They get Alabama the game after the Tide lose their opportunity to play in the BCS title game, minus arguably their best player. You can't ignore the fact that things aligned perfectly for Utah.

The Michigan win looked nice the day it happened. As the season wore on the win lost its luster because Michigan ended up being a horrible team. An objective observer knows that Oregon St and TCU outplayed them, esp TCU. The Oregon St win lost its luster when Oregon dropped a 65 spot in Corvallis in late November preventing Oregon St from getting to the Rose Bowl. I've already talked about Alabama. I cannot prove that they didn't care about the Sugar Bowl so you'll have to take my word for it. 'Bama did not care about the Sugar Bowl. In their minds the season was over when they lost to Florida. By midseason, they were thinking BCS title game or bust. Utah got them at the right time.

I said I'm on the fence about whether they should get #1 in the AP and nothing will change regardless of tomorrow night's result. That said, I'll be surprised if the AP votes them #1 because if I'm a little concerned about how things lined up for Utah, you can believe the writers are as well. I believe their vote on Friday morning of OU or Florida #1 will reflect their concern.
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just because i disagree with anyone who makes the case against utah doesn't mean that i don't know where they're coming from.

BUT, why is there so much breaking this down? just because they are a non-bcs school. if either florida or oklahoma wins by a wide margin tomorrow night, i can build a case that is just compelling about EITHER of their years, but nobody will be here talking about it. i think with very, very few exceptions, EVERY champion in every sport has to have things go their way, and you can break down every game as much as you want but their still the champions. in my mind, there is just no way in hell florida's and oklahoma's shortcomings aren't worse than utah because they fucked up and didn't take care of business during the year.

michigan win unimpressive? no, nobody beat michigan's ass worse except maybe ohio state. look at the boxscore...205 fucking total yards. i don't care who you're playing on the road; that's impressive. they were winning that game 25-10 going into the fourth quarter and had two unforced errors in borderline garbage time that made the score look close. the game was not close...they led in almost every single statistical category. it's tough to play in an ann arbor opening as a non-bcs school no matter how bad they suck. fans were much more rabid in game 1 than they were in game 7. maybe it wasn't as an impressive win as it looked at the time, but the way they played until midway through the fourth was impressive. with all of the momentum against them on the road and all of utah's mistakes, utah still won the game.

they had a favorable home schedule? so fuckin what. florida played noone on the road except for florida state. relatively a tough game even though it's in their own state, but no other road games should have been remotely close in retrospect (a word that is used often in the anti-utah case). and how the hell did oklahoma beat mighty kansas state on the road???? that was their toughest road game. nothing impressive about the road schedule of our "national champion"

tcu and oregon state shoulda woulda coulda beat them. both teams played better that day and still lost. what more could you ask for from your UNDEFEATED national champions to WIN on a day even when they played worse than their opponent, and got it together for one drive to win the game---takes tenacity, perseverance, cohesiveness, and talent to do something like that against a good opponent---the qualities that make a team good...i bet florida and oklahoma would have loved to do that vs ole miss and texas---two games that they were favored to win and didn't get it done.

of course the bama game had something to do with motivation. so what?!?! you don't write off the win because of lack of motivation on the other side (and it's still a big game by the way). if utah would have lost by a fg or won on a last second play i could understand that. but bama wasn't just un-motivated...they were not the better team period. you can't explain that ass-kicking by motivation alone. they were clearly the better team in my view

you talk about the wins versus formidable opponents "losing their luster"---maybe so, but it still has MORE luster than a loss
 
tcu and oregon state shoulda woulda coulda beat them. both teams played better that day and still lost. what more could you ask for from your UNDEFEATED national champions to WIN on a day even when they played worse than their opponent, and got it together for one drive to win the game---takes tenacity, perseverance, cohesiveness, and talent to do something like that against a good opponent---the qualities that make a team good...i bet florida and oklahoma would have loved to do that vs ole miss and texas---two games that they were favored to win and didn't get it done.


ding ding Ding !!
 
Without a playoff and with too many good teams that on any given day could beat one another, I have no problem with Utah, Texas, USC, and Florida (if they win) calling themselves MNC Champions for this year.

OU was eliminated on the field.
 
0107reilly2.jpg
 
i also should say that not only have i had a high opinion of utah, but i've had a very high opinion of bama this year, and i don't think they're overrated at all as a lot of people have thought this year....so that did heighten my view of the utah win and the way they won even more
 
The nice thing about being a Utah fan this year is that we have to justify our wins while everybody else has to justify their losses.
 
add to the case against Utah if it wasn't already there.

bama won all year with smoke and mirrors, breaks and a great oline. 2 of the top 3 on the oline played almost none of the game
 
majent said:
The case FOR:

1) They beat Michigan in Ann Arbor

2) They beat Oregon State, who was in contention for the PAC-10 crown until the final week, and Oregon State had a major win over USC, the only team to beat USC. Oregon State won their bowl and finished 9-4.

3) They beat TCU who finished 11-2 and will likely finish in the Top 10. TCU beat Boise State, the only other undefeated team in the country aside from Utah going into the bowls.

4) They dominated 'Bama, who was 12-1 coming into the Sugar Bowl and their only loss was to Florida, who will play for the BCS title on Thursday.

5) They went undefeated in the MWC, a conference on the rise who was 6-2 vs. the PAC-10 this yr, and the Utes finished 13-0

6) They proved by beating Oregon State and 'Bama that they can "play with the big boys". Oregon State was one of the best PAC-10 teams and 'Bama was undefeated until the final Saturday of the season. If beating these guys does not mean anything, what does?


The case AGAINST:

1) They were fortunate that this was the worst Michigan team in decades

2) They beat Oregon State up in Salt Lake City. Oregon State was exposed by Oregon in their final game of the season and only finished 3rd in the PAC-10, so in retrospect, the win doesn't look all that impressive.

3) They beat TCU up in Salt Lake City, and any reasonable person who was watching the game knew that TCU dominated for 59 mins of the game.
It was a fluky win.

4) They were fortunate to play 'Bama after the Crimson Tide had their national title bubble burst the final Sat of the season vs. Florida. People can say that 'Bama had no nat'l title expectations coming into the season, but believe me, they had nat'l title expectations when they went to Atlanta to play Florida and they were completely deflated for the Sugar Bowl, not to mention missing their arguably their best player (O-Lineman Andre Smith, a certain top 10 NFL draft pick this April).

5) Outside of Utah, TCU, and maybe BYU, the MWC was very average. BYU lost their bowl. Air Force lost their bowl. Colorado State won their bowl but still finished only 7-6 on the season, and only 4-4 in the MWC. The conference got tons of play for beating up on some PAC-10 cellar dwellars. The MWC was overvalued in retrospect.

6) If they had to play Oklahoma'a or Florida's schedule, they likely would have lost at least 1 game, if not more. Playing Oregon State in Salt Lake City and a 'Bama team that didn't give a crap about the Sugar Bowl is not as impressive as it might seem.


Personally, I am totally on the fence about Utah. One part of me believes they deserve the AP #1 spot regardless of what happens on Thursday. Another part of me thinks that everything lined up perfectly for Utah and no way are they the #1 team in the country so why give them the AP.

I know how VegasKyle feels, how 'bout the rest of you???
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Let's review:

Utah will finish this season as the only undefeated team in the nation. During the course of their season, they have wins over Michigan on the road in the Big House, home against an Oregon State that finished #2 in the now vaunted PAC-10 and who beat USC this year, home against Mountain West runner up TCU who was ranked #12 when they played them (and who was runner up only to Utah), home against #14 BYU for the Mountain West Title in a rivalry game, and their signature win on the big stage against #4 Alabama in a game that was never once in doubt for Utah.

Yet despite going undefeated and having four signature wins this season (because many would argue with Michigan at the Big House, I pulled them out or they have five signature wins), they have no chance of winning a National Championship. Why? Because their Conference that had three ranked teams in it was considered too weak, even though it had more ranked teams than the PAC-10 Conference. Play a tougher out of Conference schedule you say? They tried to. 7 years ago they scheduled the Michigan Wolverines, who were a top 10 team in the nation at the time. Doesn't matter. They can't play with the vaunted SEC or Big 12. Really? They just took the SEC's 2nd best punch and smashed them on the National Stage. They also took apart the #2 team in the PAC-10 that hasn't lost a bowl game. What's left? A game against Texas so they can dismantle the #2 team in that Conference?

What does this prove? That we can pretty much guarantee that there will typically be at least one single loss team in a major Conference every year and therefore, no non-BCS Conference team will ever be allowed to win a National Title under the current system. Therefore, regardless of who wins the BCS National Title game, the system will have failed again and for teams like this, it will continue to fail every time. It will refuse to make a team that ran the table with a host of key wins the National Champion because of human opinion regarding that program historically.

And once again, we have proven that only a team in the six major BCS Conferences can win a National Championship, and that under the current system, Division I really does need to be divided in half, removing the non-BCS teams from Title contention and allowing them to play for their own National Title since they have zero chance of winning one on their own now.
 
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JPicks said:
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Oh nevermind ....... Obama says they have a legit claim and he is never right about anything. I guess i was wrong ....sorry utes.
 
Ya, I saw nothing tonight that made me think either of these teams should be voted above Utah. Come on AP voters. Do the right thing
 
JPicks said:
Ya, I saw nothing tonight that made me think either of these teams should be voted above Utah. Come on AP voters. Do the right thing
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Exactly .. one of the worst played bowl games of the bowl season in my opinion. Those two teams did not look elite at all.
 
Utah can't put beating Michigan on their #1 resume just like Michigan basketball can't put beating Indiana on their Ncaa tourney resume. Just because its a big name team doesnt mean its a good win at all.
 
orangemonk said:
Utah can't put beating Michigan on their #1 resume just like Michigan basketball can't put beating Indiana on their Ncaa tourney resume. Just because its a big name team doesnt mean its a good win at all.
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relax dude. michigan is #4 on the utes victories this year at best and probably like #6
 
utah looked the best of all the BCS teams. I'd rank them like this:

1) Utah
2) USC
3) Florida
4) Texas

Who gives a shit after this?
 
Based on accomplishment this is easy

1. utah
2. texas
3. florida

big gap

4. usc


With that said , i would make usc the favorite vs any team on a neutral
 
Tomorrow morning the AP will either give a big middle-finger to the BCS or a big middle-finger to the non-BCS conferences. Someone is gonna be very angry, and I have a bad feeling it's gonna be the non-BCS conferences, ie, the MWC, the "little guy". Hard to imagine the AP giving Utah the #1 spot tomorrow. I hope I'm wrong.
 
majent said:
Tomorrow morning the AP will either give a big middle-finger to the BCS or a big middle-finger to the non-BCS conferences. Someone is gonna be very angry, and I have a bad feeling it's gonna be the non-BCS conferences, ie, the MWC, the "little guy". Hard to imagine the AP giving Utah the #1 spot tomorrow. I hope I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

(Don't shoot the messenger)

Florida received 48 first-place votes, Utah received 16 first-place votes, USC received 1 first-place vote.

This is the 10th time in the 11 yrs of the BCS that the AP champion has matched the BCS champion, which gives more credibility, not less, to the BCS system. Not my opinion, just stating what should be considered fact after people complain about so much "controversy" over who's #1 but 10 out of the 11 yrs of the BCS's existence, the AP final #1 agrees with it. This lends more credibility to the BCS, whether we like it or not.

2 things:

1) The voting media, which has no tie-in to the BCS, had the opportunity to do what many believe is "the right thing" by voting 13-0 Utah #1, but they chose, by a decisive 3 to 1 ratio, to put 13-1 Florida ahead of Utah. Now, it's not just the BCS alone, but the media also who should be blamed for supporting the current system and all of the problems that so many fans seem to have with it.

2) Please don't direct your anger about this towards me because I could give a rat's *ss who is #1 in the AP.

Take care, and may the offseason treat you all very well. Carry on without me because for me the offseason begins right this minute.

:shake:
 
Voters respond to what they've seen last

I am frankly shocked that Utah finished No. 2 in the final poll.

I guess I should not be because(as a former sportswriter) I certainly do not have any confidence in the collective wisdom of those casting the ballots.

This morning on satellite radio, I heard Phil Steele say Florida would be a 17-point favorite over Utah, adding that Texas and a host of other teams would be in the 14-point range.

As bettors, we know victories against "emotionless" teams in bowl games are often given too much weight by the "average" fan. I bet Utah big over Alabama in the bowl game, feeling the Crimson Tide would not bring their full measure of emotion to the table. They did not, and I was happy.

That being said, if Alabama and Utah played at a neutral site during the regular season, I would not have had the same opinion.

Utah, however, should not be penalized for its victory in any shape, form or fashion, but one would hope voters could fully judge the win in proper time and place.

Good luck,
Paul
 
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