The 4th down play for SF

D-Woww

D-Woww

Old Man Dan
Heres the million dollar question:

a. Was it a penalty?

and

b. Do you think that the situation changes whether or not the flag should be thrown?


My opinion: yes it was a flag, yes it should have been thrown because a penalty is a penalty no matter when it occurs, but really SF has nobody to blame but themselves because that was about as bad of a 4th down play call as they could have come up with.

Fades rarely work in general. Wanna take a shot on 1st or 2nd down, fine. On the do or die play? Just awful.
 
I don't mind contact, but when you are hugging/mugging a guy with your hands wrapped around the receivers outside arm (and a fist full of jersey), then it's holding.
 
He was held big time imo. Refs still don't understand difference between p.I. and holding when ball is in air sometimes.
 
I say it was a good no call. We saw the game before in the championship game against ATL where SF benefitted from a no call on 4th down. On 4th down I want a clear cut obvious call. There was some jostling/holding but they do that every play. Kapernick is to blame a little for a bad throw. Give your receiver a chance. Even if there was no contact I don't think he catches it with that throw.

Bottom line IMO is you need a little more contact to get the call on a 4th down. Tough call either way.
 
a. definitely a penalty for holding

b. the situation does change things for a penalty like PI. It's simply not called on hail marys, and to a certain degree that 4th down play became one with Kaepernick having to chuck it to dodge the blitz. If he had had time and had the play looked more fluid then I could see the refs interpreting things differently.

But holding is holding.
 
two big points here:

1. yes, holding is different and while PI can be let go, this was blatant holding.

2. at the same time, if any sf fan is bitching about that, they do have to accept that it was a similar no call that got them to the SB
 
The play calling at the end of the game was questionable. They were gashing the Ravens with the run with Gore, Kap, and James. After they ran on first down, they did 3 straight pass plays. I thought they had Baltimore on the ropes and bailed them out by going to the air. Not to mention burning a timeout was huge for SF and a comeback attempt.

And I wanted SF to score. I had Balt +4 and i hedged a quarter of that bet in-game with SF +1.5.
 
HUNT said:
He was held big time imo. Refs still don't understand difference between p.I. and holding when ball is in air sometimes.
Click to expand...

Gandolf said:
a. definitely a penalty for holding
Click to expand...
Gandolf said:
b. the situation does change things for a penalty like PI. It's simply not called on hail marys, and to a certain degree that 4th down play became one with Kaepernick having to chuck it to dodge the blitz. If he had had time and had the play looked more fluid then I could see the refs interpreting things differently.

But holding is holding.
Click to expand...


bilde
 
apparently from what im reading now, CK audibled that play bc he saw a huge blitz coming. so that wasnt the actual play call
 
cogenman said:
The play calling at the end of the game was questionable. They were gashing the Ravens with the run with Gore, Kap, and James. After they ran on first down, they did 3 straight pass plays. I thought they had Baltimore on the ropes and bailed them out by going to the air. Not to mention burning a timeout was huge for SF and a comeback attempt.

And I wanted SF to score. I had Balt +4 and i hedged a quarter of that bet in-game with SF +1.5.
Click to expand...
Balty was blitzing three guys on those to goal plays....it's hard not to switch to what your taught on the line of scrimmage when the numbers dictate what you are suposed to do.
 
JumpOnBoard said:
Balty was blitzing three guys on those to goal plays....it's hard not to switch to what your taught on the line of scrimmage when the numbers dictate what you are suposed to do.
Click to expand...
Good point. I thought they could've gone with something over the middle. Vernon Davis was owning them that game and he didn't even get a look. I hate fade plays. Everything has to be perfect to work. The protection, the pass, and then the catch. Like dwoww said maybe on 2nd or 3rd down, but not on the potential last play.
 
It was Andy Reid esque play calling from inside the five. Just brutal

i feel like the first down play was a run it into the line solely to get the clock down to the two minute warning.

the second down play was awful...you immediately cut off half of the field and ran a rollout with no run option to the short side.

The original third down play I think was an audible too. Shame of that one was it looked like he audibled into something that was gonna get them an easy TD (and cash my Kaepernick scores 2 td's prop) but he just didn't get the audible called/ran in time (also...I wouldn't have called timeout there...would have just gone from the 10)

the third down after the time out was brutal...think he coulda ran that in and again it was sort of a my mind is made up and I'm gonna cut off half the field from the jump play...also think it was a catch and a fumble, but that was irrelevant since it went out of bounds at about the same spot

the fourth down call was brutal. When do fades thrown to people not named Calvin Johnson ever work?

Really think Kaepernick panicked that whole sequence. I feel like Russell Wilson for example makes a play on one of those downs. Really all he had to do was pump fake or spin out of a oncoming blitzer and he coulda walked in on the weak side.

but more so I think that's on the play calling...how you don't call any plays that allow him to do something on the ground is just brutal
 
If I was a Niners fan, that whole sequence would just kill me for a long time...they really shoulda done better there
 
Once again though...the regular season was proven irrelevant for the most part - just get in the playoffs and get hot
 
the entire game was played the same exact way... the niners had a lot of no calls go their way.... a couple of no calls on long passes

you cant just blame the refs because the call that mattered at the end was missed... if the refs made the calls earlier in the game that last play probably wouldnt even be there
 
longhorny said:
no call, just that all the country and media cant believe the Ravens handed the 49s their ass...
Click to expand...

Handed them their ass? OK

[TABLE="class: mod-data"]
<TBODY>[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]1st Downs[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Passing 1st downs
[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Rushing 1st downs
[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]1st downs from Penalties
[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]3rd down efficiency
[/TD]
[TD]9-16[/TD]
[TD]2-9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]4th down efficiency
[/TD]
[TD]0-2[/TD]
[TD]0-1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Total Plays[/TD]
[TD]70[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Total Yards[/TD]
[TD]367[/TD]
[TD]468[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Yards per play[/TD]
[TD]5.2[/TD]
[TD]7.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Total Drives[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Passing[/TD]
[TD]274[/TD]
[TD]286[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Comp - Att
[/TD]
[TD]22-33[/TD]
[TD]16-28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Yards per pass
[/TD]
[TD]8.3[/TD]
[TD]10.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Interceptions thrown
[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Sacks - Yards Lost
[/TD]
[TD]2-13[/TD]
[TD]3-16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Rushing[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]182[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Rushing Attempts
[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Yards per rush
[/TD]
[TD]2.7[/TD]
[TD]6.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Red Zone (Made-Att)[/TD]
[TD]2-4[/TD]
[TD]2-6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Penalties[/TD]
[TD]2-20[/TD]
[TD]5-33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Turnovers[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Fumbles lost
[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="align: left"]Interceptions thrown
[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Defensive / Special Teams TDs[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: bi, align: left"]Possession[/TD]
[TD]32:23[/TD]
[TD]27:37[/TD]
[/TR]
</TBODY>[/TABLE]
 
while we are at it, why don't we discuss the mugging that went on during the kickoff return for the TD. I think it was 49 or 41 for SF that got held by TWO GUYS in the middle of the field.

Rediculous - the two biggest non calls in the game either led directly to Balty points or kept SF from extending a drive to score points. Would have been a different game if either of those calls go the way they should have.
 
Crabtree's route was atrocious on that play..still got held but he made it a lot easier by not exploding through the route...either way, shoulda been a hold
 
P-Unit said:
while we are at it, why don't we discuss the mugging that went on during the kickoff return for the TD. I think it was 49 or 41 for SF that got held by TWO GUYS in the middle of the field.

Rediculous - the two biggest non calls in the game either led directly to Balty points or kept SF from extending a drive to score points. Would have been a different game if either of those calls go the way they should have.
Click to expand...
Torrey Smith was held on a long ball earlier in the game as well that wasn't called....crew clearly had planned to let them play it seemed
 
Exactly jump. The game was going so fast (except for the lights going out)

the refs were letting them play... That's for sure. Everyone just points to the last play because they see it as the play that decided the game. Very skewed thinking
 
SF backers need to stop whining IMO. Sound like Harbaugh. There were plays missed on both sides and its not only this game but every single NFL ever played.

If you think that last play to Crabtree was a missed penalty what are your thoughts on Roddy White's 4th down no call?

What I'm surprised on was that I saw no flags on kick off's or punt returns, that might be a first for me this year.
 
the second down play was awful...you immediately cut off half of the field and ran a rollout with no run option to the short side.

SF did this all day to Kap on big plays either near the goal line or on third downs and it never worked—and they refused to adjust to it. Meanwhile the Pistol was working for like 8 yards per play. Whatever, I had the Blackbirds so thanks for that, Jim. You put your QB in situations that he consistently had trouble with and refused to stop, I'll be at the window if you need me.

As for the play, by the book it's a definite hold. The DB pretty much prevented the guy from running his route. But here's the problem—and it goes back to third down.

Because they burned a timeout rather than taking the delay of game, they were still inside the 10. That meant that the five yards a DB had to hold the guy extended basically to the goal line.

So when the play runs at full speed and the DB doesn't actually come off Crabtree until he's in the endzone, it makes it much more of a bang-bang play that's easier to let go. And as mentioned above, they were letting holds on routes go all day for both teams.

Quite frankly, but for the fact that the NFL has gone way overboard flagging DBs on WRs in the last couple of years, I don't even think we're talking about this as a missed call. At least, not half as much as we are right now.

The other part of this is, and I wondered this at the time, was the ball catchable.

As soon as they blitzed Kap didn't really have time to set and just threw the ball up. For where it landed and that Crabtree actually had a shot at it, it wasn't that bad of a throw seeing as it was in the blind and off his back foot.

However, it landed a good yard or so out of bounds and I wonder if, from where that ref is, if in the play it looked like there would be no way anybody was catching that fly ball.

Last, someone brought this up last night. Because SF takes the TO, every ref on that field has time to think about one thing on those final two plays. Don't be the guy who makes a ticky-tack call that gives the Super Bowl to one team or the other.

I guarantee you this was going through their heads and I'm certain coming out of that timeout all these guys are thinking about staying sharp, but also about letting 'em play. Which is really what they did.
 
It will definitely make the niners more mature. This team still time with the players it has.
 
While we're being critical of Jim H and the Niners, can't overlook the timeout usage in the 2nd half.

The rule for timeouts is they are toys in the first half and GOLD in the second. The ONLY circumstances in which you call a time out in the 2nd half are to:

a) Stop a running clock.

or

b) Set up for your very last chance to win the game.

That's it, thats the list. The Niners burning a timeout early in the half was egregious, but the 2nd timeout to save the delay of game penalty was a killer, as it took away any chance to get the ball back with time on the clock should they turn it over on downs (which they did). I don't think 3rd and 10 would've been a worse deal than 3rd and 5 based on their plans to throw the ball. Take the penalty, SAVE THE TIME.
 
Let's talk key penalties as a whole in the game. SF really hurt themselves in this game with their undisciplined play an they were of course bitten by bad officiating as well.

The first quarter saw two key plays where the niners shot themselves in the foot and both were good calls by the officials. The illegal formation to start the Super Bowl is simply inexcusable and it was a net loss of about 25 yards, as they gained about 20 that play. This led to a three and out and a short field for the Ravens.

Then on third and 9 the niners jumped offsides on a play that they stopped the Ravens and had forced a FG. Ravens hit Boldin for a Td on the do-over on third and 4. That was at least a 4 point penalty and was just undisciplined, bad football by SF.

IMO the 2nd biggest officiating blunder occurred in 2nd qtr and was missed by the same official. On 2nd and 10 from the Baltimore 44 with under 2 minutes to go in the half, Flacco went deep to T Smith who was covered. The defender had a great play on the ball but was absolutely mugged by Smith on the play which prevented an easy interception. It was a good play by Smith to interfere ( credit to him ) but it was an abomination of a no call. Instead of 2nd and forever from their own 34, the Ravens had 3rd and 10 and hit Jones on the 56 yard td pass the next play. The ravens are almost assuredly running the football on 2nd and 20 and most likely third and forever depending on what happened on second down. That two play sequence was probably the biggest of the game though hard to argue that the end of niners last drive was not equally important. There is almost no way that offensive interference could have been missed.

The Third QTR had it's share of important calls as well.


1. There were two different holds on the kick return for td ... I have little problem that they were missed as i think holding is overcalled on kick returns in general and i think they are sometimes harder to find on kick returns as well. In addition, one of the two holds was in a double team and I think that rarely gets called either. BUT there was holding of two different players on that play. I can see where a SF fan would be upset by it. Personally, I don't think they are blatant enough to get up in arms about.

2. Akers running into the kicker penalty was a joke. That was basically a free 3 points for the niners.

The 4th qtr is what everyone will focus on and for good reason....mostly because of the inequality of similar plays.

The first call we need to discuss is the two point conversion where Reed was a full yard offsides and was likely the direct reason the play failed. There is no excuse to miss that call.

What makes it interesting is that SF was caught earlier in the game on a big offsides that they didn't miss and were called for offsides on two different players on the same play later in the game on a key third down. Both of the times SF was called for offsides, the penalties were legit but they missed it when it was the ravens.

And that brings me to 4th qtr inequality #2 ... Immediately following that failed 2pt conversion, the ravens were up two and faced 3rd and 9 at their own 22 yard line. Trouble. But Culliver got a little too handsy and held Smith on a pass that was likely uncatchable but possible Smith could have made a great play on it if he were not being held. I think the correct call was made ( take your pick of defensive holding or PI -- the ref chose PI ). Two plays later, the ravens were given a first down on a bad spot and jim harbaugh had to challenge to get it fixed. The ravens went on to get a fg that drive.

On 2nd and goal of the niners last drive there was arguably pass interference in the corner of the end zone. I think it was a good no call but others say it was PI.

On the fourth down play walker is tackled and they attempt to tackle crabtree. Both are easy calls imo but given that the walker tackle occurs away from the play side and ck releaes that ball so fast, i can understand keeping hat flag in the pocket. There is no excuse for no flag on the 4th down play. none. He is being mugged, held, impeded and interfered with. The ball was more catchable and there was more intereference than the very important third down call they made against culliver earlier in the qtr. In fact, there is just no way that isn't a penalty. None.

And this is where I think people are gonna have a problem ... while I agree with a lot of the calls and no calls that went the ravens way in this game .. they really seemed to get almost all of the 50-50 calls.

I left out two plays in the above look back at the one sided officiating. There was a no call on roughing flacco at the sideline which was a good no call imo and there was a no call when the raven pushed the ref where he should have been ejected following the Reed interception. Both minor things but mentioning for thoroughness.


Hard to imagine that the replacement refs could have been worse and at least if they were it would have most likely at least been more equitable.
 
JumpOnBoard said:
Crabtree's route was atrocious on that play..still got held but he made it a lot easier by not exploding through the route...either way, shoulda been a hold
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree that if he had pushed hard through the route the holding would have been a lot more visible to the referee. Still should have been called though.

JumpOnBoard said:
Torrey Smith was held on a long ball earlier in the game as well that wasn't called....crew clearly had planned to let them play it seemed
Click to expand...
Another terrible no call on that play. This referee crew was absolutely terrible with all the missed calls.
 
Well, the drive prior to that had Joe Flacco hit two or three yards out of bounds. That would have led to a first and goal at the one, I believe, and all this PI or holding BS would be moot. The refs let them play. Personally, the defender and the receiver were tugging and holding at each other with the receiver ultimately pushing the defender away to separate himself. That's how it played out, but 49er backers simply refuse to see it.
 
Then on third and 9 the niners jumped offsides on a play that they stopped the Ravens and had forced a FG.

True. But this was obviously a free play that Flacco treated as such. So it wasn't so much a stop as it was Flacco throwing the ball where only his WR might get it and if it misses it's no big deal.

IMO the 2nd biggest officiating blunder occurred in 2nd qtr and was missed by the same official. On 2nd and 10 from the Baltimore 44 with under 2 minutes to go in the half, Flacco went deep to T Smith who was covered. The defender had a great play on the ball but was absolutely mugged by Smith on the play which prevented an easy interception.

I saw people mention this during the game and said the same thing then that I'll say now: This penalty is NEVER called on the offense. Never. If you get one of those calls as a team a season you're lucky. They just don't call it.

In fact, they call it so infrequently I think you can argue whether it's even pass interference, because as a WR you should mug the guy every single time if you think he's got a shot at the ball. Every time. EVERY TIME. Because most refs will let it go as you making a play for the ball, even if you're not as Smith did yesterday.

Never expect this call to happen and be pleasantly surprised with the gift if you get it.

There was a no call on roughing flacco at the sideline which was a good no call imo

I was shocked they let this one go with how easy they are on QBs these days. Absolutely shocked. This was an easy flag to throw and I'm surprised they didn't throw it actually. Flacco was definitely out of bounds.

But I think it goes to the larger point I and others have made above, they let 'em play a lot yesterday. There were only a few really ticky-tack calls in my opinion, the Akers one was one, SF got jobbed on a pretty weak call at one point if I remember right as well.

But most of the 'blown' calls were just ones where they kept the flags in their pockets—save where Baltimore was totally offsides on that two point conversion.

And I'm not so sure you can complain about that when it happens the whole game. Like when Carolina manhandled the Birds WRs for an entire NFC Championship game. It drove us nuts, but it was there from the start of the game and if they're going to let it go, you have to adjust.

That's what makes the no-flag on the fourth down play all the more understandable. Because, in large part, they were letting guys do that on the outside most of the day. There were one or two flags out there, but mostly they were letting it go and because of that, as Jump said, you've got to run a better route.

I think a better question is, if Kap reads that blitz, as he said he did, is Crabtree the one you want to throw that fade to? Moss is bigger and definitely has that play in his bag. Do you really want to ask Crabtree to be the guy who absolutely must get that separation? Or do you want to look to Moss or Davis?

And, really, Kap needs to keep the ball in the field of play there. Now, he's under pressure so he should get some leeway, but it's better to turn that into a true jump ball in the endzone than to let it land out of bounds.

Of course, then you're asking kind of a lot from Kap, that's not his strongest throw and he had to do it under pressure.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Homophobic Chris Culliver Admits He Was Afraid To Get Anywhere Near Ravens Receivers | More Super Bowl Coverage: <a href="http://t.co/tZkRJXcM" title="http://onion.com/UkWu3L">onion.com/UkWu3L</a></p>&mdash; Onion Sports Network (@OnionSports) <a href="https://twitter.com/OnionSports/status/298581508116066305">February 4, 2013</a></blockquote>
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I haven't watched ESPN today or listened to much talk, is Boldin getting his due Chuck Norris credit for this game?
 
All I can say is if the ball was thrown better, than you might have gotten a call by the ref....terrible pass!....good no call
 
First off yes it was a penalty and yes it should have been called. Doesn't really matter to me how the rest of the game was called, that was a game changing play.

Secondly how on earth do you not run three straight pistol wildcat sweeps there and let your biggest weapon walk the ball into the end zone vs a seriously tired and worn down ravens defense.

I have not seen this mentioned anywhere possibly out of respect for the brothers but John coached circles around Jim last night. The ravens staff coached circles around the niners staff as well. By the time the niners figured shit out enough to make a game out of it, it was too late and they were down by too many points. That goal line stand only magnifies my point. Does not really matter if Kap was checking out of those plays, he should have been coached what to do in those situations.
 
Yeah, outside of that one play where John way over-thought it and tried a fake FG which forced his kicker to run 20 yards against, you know, actual NFL linebackers, older brother really had the coaching edge.
 
Coverdatspred said:
First off yes it was a penalty and yes it should have been called. Doesn't really matter to me how the rest of the game was called, that was a game changing play.

Secondly how on earth do you not run three straight pistol wildcat sweeps there and let your biggest weapon walk the ball into the end zone vs a seriously tired and worn down ravens defense.

I have not seen this mentioned anywhere possibly out of respect for the brothers but John coached circles around Jim last night. The ravens staff coached circles around the niners staff as well. By the time the niners figured shit out enough to make a game out of it, it was too late and they were down by too many points. That goal line stand only magnifies my point. Does not really matter if Kap was checking out of those plays, he should have been coached what to do in those situations.
Click to expand...

This.

it really reminded me of watching an Andy Reid era eagles game
 
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