tell me why dungy is great or sucks

• Only coach ever to win twelve games or more five years in a row.
• Players never have really gotten in trouble and have his ultimate respect.
• Took a Tampa Bay franchise out of the cellar to bring them to respectability.
• Built the foundation which later resulted in a Super Bowl for Tampa Bay.
• Brought his defensive philosophy to Indianapolis, a franchise only know at the time for its offense and defensive ineptness.
• Won one Super Bowl.
• First African-American to win the Super Bowl.
• Highest winning percentage for active coaches at 127-65.
• First NFL head coach to defeat all 32 NFL teams.
• Youngest assistant coach in NFL history at age 25.
• Youngest coordinator in NFL history at age 28.
• Coaching tree includes the following: Herman Edwards, Lovie Smith, Rod Marinelli, Mike Tomlin, and Mike Shula. Lesser known people include Joe Barry, defensive coordinator of the Detroit Lions, and Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator of the Minnesota Vikings.


The guy is a great coach. He might not have multiple Super Bowl rings but has accomplished basically everything else. I know people will say his teams more than not came up short. Oh well, would you not want him as your coach?

And we are talking about COACHING accomplishments. This doesn't even begin to talk about how great a man Tony Dungy is. But that is a separate discussion.
 
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There are many that do question him. There is someone on this board that is very critical of him, I forgot who though.
 
His teams have basically dominated the divisions they've played in, have they not?

TB went from doormat to the top of the Central, or what ever it used to be called. Indy has been in the playoffs every year he's been there except one, and I think won the division every year he's been there save that same one which was they year they lost EJ to a season ending knee injury.

His problem has always been the playoffs. When he plays good teams, I don't think he adjusts in-game very well and I think it's cost him almost every year come playoff time.

That said, not much you can do when Peyton decides to p*ss away the ball in the redzone like he did on Sunday, or when Marvin Harrison fumbles inside the 20 for the first time in basically his entire career.
 
I won't make a ton of friends with this statement, but I think he's severely overrated. There are many coaches in the NFL that could have done more with the talent Dungy had on those teams. It took Gruden one year to win it with Dungy and Kiffen's crew. And he got his ring with Indy, so he won't go down in history as a choker, but had he not got the ring that year, he would have been known forever as the guy who couldn't win the big game, because of his lack of killer instinct.

There have been at least 10 coaches in the last 20 years that are better than Dungy in my book. Many won't agree, but I think he was in favorable situations and his players made him look better than he was
 
You can't argue with his record or his motivational skills. He knows how to use and get the best out of his players and not many coaches can, ala Norm Chow.

But I must agree, he has a hard time making adjustments on the fly and that really is a soft spot for him.

He is a WINNER and any team would improve with him on it's staff.
 
If you gave Dungy the players on the Titans this year, they would have been watching the wild card game from their couches. He's got a good record because he had a great defense in Tampa, and a great offense in Indy
 
I actually don't have a problem with Doggy's argument at all.

He's kind of become Marty Schottenheimer: The Next Generation.

Only, he's got a title. Still, you have to win in the playoffs. That's what this is about, and though he's now 1-0 in the SB, his playoff record isn't that great.
 
scdoggy, while I don't disagree with you when you say other coaches could have done more with the talent he had, I would like to ask you to name ten better coaches in the last twenty years. I came up with six better coaches, possibly eight.
 
There are guys throughout history who have been put into ideal coaching situations on teams that were built by others:

Gibbs was given credit for being such a great coach. But was he? Or did Bobby Beathard builld a team that any reasonably good coach coahc have won titles with. We'll never know the real answer, but certainly there have been coaches who have won Super Bowls that weren't really great at "coaching". Can they make adjustments and call plays that make their team win games that they otherwise would lose?

The ones that come to mind that I'd compare Dungy to are:

Gibbs
Jimmy Johnson
Billick

And for the record, I think Marty has done more with less talent that a lot of coaches that are considered greats.
 
Billick isn't anywhere close to Dungy, explain that one please.

I'll give you Johnson for sure, forgot him.

In no order:

Belichick
Cowher
Holmgren
Gibbs
Walsh
Shanahan
Johnson
 
Goops - this is pretty subjectie but here goes

Belichick
Parcells
Ditka
Holmgren
Shula
Shanahan
Cowher
Seifert
Schottenheimer
Vermeil

I don't have Gibbs on this list but you could throw him, Jeff Fisher, Gruden, and a few others on there
 
I couldn't remember when Walsh retired, but if him Laundry and Knoll are candidates you can put them on the list too
 
I gave Billick as an example because he had a great team that won a SB in spite of him, not because of him. Dungy's abetter coach than Billick, but I think he was in the same circumstance with the Indy team
 
Belichick - For sure

Parcells - Didn't have him, for sure.

Ditka -You're kidding right? I am a Bears fan and Ditka is an awesome coach. Are you kidding? Did you see what he did in New Orleans? Go ask their fans what they think of him. Don't ask homer Bears fans. They will just yell, "COACH!"

Holmgren - For sure.

Shula - Didn't realize how long he coaches, for sure.

Shanahan - For sure, although hasn't done much after Elway.

Cowher - This is one is debatable but I will say he is up there top ten wise in last twenty years. He only has one Super Bowl and a .571 playoff percentage. Not good. Dungy has a higher winning percentage career wise and the same amount of years in the playoffs.

Seifert - I don't know much about him but people say that he is overrated because he inherited Walsh's teams.

Walsh - For sure.

Schottenheimer - Maybe, but the playoff records are way different. And the Super Bowl ring gives Dungy the edge. I'll take most of the other coaches on this list over him.

Vermeil - One Super Bowl but only six playoff appearances. I don't think so. His playoff record isn't that great either. All the other guys on this list are better.

Gibbs - For sure.

Johnson - For sure.

That's nine coaches for me:

Belichick
Cowher
Holmgren
Gibbs
Walsh
Shanahan
Johnson
Parcells
Shula

And then you have Dungy in my book. Jeff Fisher, love him but no. Jon Gruden? You are kidding? Make that case please.

And Dungy and Billick are totally different examples. Dungy's career accomplishments dwarf Billick's. That is a fact.
 
They were just talking about Dungy on NFL Live and whether he is a HOF coach or not. They said no question but Salisbury said probably not first ballot.
 
had he not got the ring that year, he would have been known forever as the guy who couldn't win the big game, because of his lack of killer instinct.
Click to expand...

I dont know a helluva lot about the guy, but the fact is a team did win it all with him at the helm. And did so having to win 2 games away from the RCA Dome, and beat the best team in football for the last 5-6 years at the RCA Dome, and win as many games as is possible (4). So the 1 time he did steer the helm to ultimate glory, it was basically as rough a ride as it gets.

To win it all takes much more than coaching, so much has to fall into place. Coaches can't coach injuries, and while turnovers can be as much about proper preparation (coaching responsibility), they're equally about a simple matter of fate/luck, and they as much as anything else decide post season games (just ask Jacksonville).

A simple FG would've beaten Pitt the year Pitt won it all, and fateful TO's cost them as much as anything else vs SD. Neither cause for those losses is down to Dungy.
 
Good post BC

Very good coach...the guy when he was at Miny was Barry Sanders nemises..first I knew of him..

But more important..a great guy..that speaks volumes in todays age of athletics
 
I'll agree with you guys that Dungy is a great guy. Hall of fame coach - yes he'll be in there. Being the first AA coach to win a Super Bowl would have put him in there simply on that one accomplishment, and deservedly so. Players like the guy too.

But if I was an owner of an NFL franchise, there are a lot of guys I'd take ahead of Dungy - many of whom will never step into the hall of fame.

He's not a disciplinarian, I question his instincts as well as his play calling. I know there's more than one way to skin a cat, but I still maintain that he underachieved with the talent he had on his teams.
 
Again to reiterate - the title of this thread was tell me why Dungy is great or sucks. I'm somewhere in the middle. Certainly the guy doesn't suck, but I also wouldn't call him great. The tough part is, he is a class act, nice guy, etc. He won the SB in the aftermath of his son's suicide - wo I feel bad even questioning him at all. But you can't argue that there were others who deserve much of the credit for building the Tampa franchise, and that Dungy had many opportunities with an outstanding football to win it all, and a young guy with a little more fire comes long and does it one year later with the same exact players.

Good coach yes - hall of fame -yes. But I apparently have less respect for him as a coach (not as a human being) than the rest of you guys
 
scdoggy said:
He's not a disciplinarian...
Click to expand...

So? When did his players get in trouble? It seems as though you are a fan of coaches that get in your face and show their fire more so than Dungy. That is a personal opinion but that fact remains that Dungy's players never got in trouble. To call him not a disciplinarian is pretty low. There is probably not a single guy who has played for Dungy that would speak poorly of him and not do something for him.

When players lose a game and they say afterwards, "We let our coach down," that is the sign of truly a great coach IMO. A coach can yell, gameplan, do all that, but when players grasp onto his beliefs and his system and believe that he is the one to carry them to the next level and they can do anything, then I'll take that coach over anyone else.

Since when was underachieving a truly "bad" thing? He got a ring. We look at basketball and during the Jordan era, how many people never got past Jordan? Do we slight them? Stockton, Malone, Miller, Barkley, etc. Dungy ran into the Patriots, enough said.

And one last point, someone brought up winning a Super Bowl is very hard. The way they won it last year was incredible. No one thought they had a chance starting the playoffs. Remember how bad their defense was? They had the best team in the playoffs, no doubt about it. They did EVERYTHING right. You can't take that away from them and slight them because of everything else that happened.

Yes, Dungy "underachieved." But many coaches, even those coaches that you say you would take who are not HOF worthy, would give their leg to be Coach Dungy.
 
I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning. They didn't talk about Dungy specifically but what they did talk about can be related to Dungy and coaches of our generation.

In the last six years, there have been five instances (including this year with Norv Turner) where a first year head coach in the NFL has taken his team to the Conference Championship Game. Turner this year, Sean Payton last year with the Saints, Jim Mora Jr. with the Falcons in the 2004, Jon Gruden with the Bucs in 2002, and Bill Callahan with the Raiders in the same year.

That equals the same amount of coaches who accomplished the same feat in their first season as a head coach in the last twenty three years prior COMBINED.

What does that say? It says that coaches these days are expected to get their team to immediate success. Gone are the days of a five year building plan, truly building the team through teaching and drafting and watching a team grow. If you can't get the job done, you are going to be fired and the next guy will be expected to turn around the ship within a relatively short time. It sort of happened to Dungy in Tampa Bay. Let's not forget that it was still his defense that won it for them. He BUILT that team.

It speaks volumes IMO that a coach like Dungy or Cowher can stay in a place like Indy and Pittsburgh (Pittsburgh more so obviously) and have consistent success and then get the big win eventually. That is not how the NFL is built anymore and when a coach can last in a place that long and get the job done, they need to be credited and realized in the same breath as the great coaches of our generation.
 
You're wrong about me loving the in your face type coaches. I was in a similar thread in another forum a few weeks ago arguing the Cowher was overrated as a coach. I think the same about Dungy.

Your arguement seems to be more about him as a human being. I've never said he's not a class act, good guy, all that stuff.

BUt what it boils down to is that I think there are a lot of coaches that would had more success than Dungy, given the players that were on his teams.

Again, at some point this becomes a pointless discussion because its highly subjective and there are so many things that factor into the equation besides just coaching. We'll never be able to determine what others would have done with this team. Would Bill Walsh have been a great coach if he coached the Bucs in the early 80's??? Or maybe if Herm Edwards had Tom Brady on his team, we'd be saying how great a coach he is.... Its a discussion that would go on forever.

But I stand by my orignial point that I think a great coach would have gotten more rings with the talent Dungy had on his teams. I do give him credit for what he's accomplished, but Mossberg wanted to hear both schools of though on this, and I think he found them.

:cheers:
 
You and I fundamentally disagee with what makes a good coach. These two statements from your thread are an exact 180 from my thoughts on the subject:

When players lose a game and they say afterwards, "We let our coach down," that is the sign of truly a great coach IMO.

And

Since when was underachieving a truly "bad" thing?
 
I said in my first post that my argument is away from the fact that he is a great human being. But that said, it's a part of the argument in the sense that his players have his utmost respect. That's why I said the thing about letting coaches down. When coaches can transcend a team and their thoughts, it's pretty powerful. Look at Wooden, that's what he was known for. Same with Lombardi, Coach K, Phil Jackson, Dean Smith, Pat Summit, Eddie Robinson, Gibbs, etc. Those coaches' players would go to war for them. Same with Dungy. Can the same be said with the majority of the coaches currently in the NFL?

And I meant underachieving in the sense that people say Dungy has underachieved. I'll take the "underachiever" Dungy and his career resume rather than many of the coaches currently in the NFL.

I agree this is a pointless discussion in the sense of "What if?" So with that in mind, we look at what we do have. And I think we both agree that Dungy should have done more with the team he had in Indy. Where we differ is that I think what he has accomplished is truly amazing.

No hard feelings, it's a great debate.
 
Exactly. I actually think the Tampa team is the one where he underachieved. He should have won a SB with that defense.

But exactly - good debate. Peace
 
Didn't Dungy get these players on his team? He built that small fast D. He inherited a great QB/WR/LT combo. He built a championship defense out of nobodys.
 
Monty Kiffen should get the credit for the defense.
As soon as Gruden got there and put a half decent offence in place, what happened?

Tide - no he didn't get those players on the team. Sapp, Nickerson, Brooks and Lynch were all drafted prior to Dungy's arrival.
 
scdoggy said:
Monty Kiffen should get the credit for the defense.
As soon as Gruden got there and put a half decent offence in place, what happened?

Tide - no he didn't get those players on the team. Sapp, Nickerson, Brooks and Lynch were all drafted prior to Dungy's arrival.
Click to expand...

This is simply wrong. Dungy took the Cover 2 and made modifications WITH Monte Kiffin. It was specifically a collaboration between Dungy, Kiffin, and Lovie Smith.

In fact, Dungy often credits his "Steel Curtain" days as the origin of the Tampa 2.

To link the Tampa 2 soley to Kiffin is simply wrong.
 
And it's true, credit needs to be given to the Dungy when he took an awful defense and made them a top tier one in several years.
 
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