So... Clemens and the hall

Santacapper

Santacapper

Pretty much a regular
with Clemens coming up in the report

Begs the question, if you had a vote, would you vote him into the hall?

Personally my vote remains the same, within the rules of the game, have at it.

Just wondering what the guys ripping Bonds think

(popcorn)
 
would have to certainly wait for his side of the story....this is just one side of it and heresay at this point..

Does his numbers up to 99 warrant a HOF bid..

His 12 year span w/ BOS would be close...
 
JumpOnBoard said:
would have to certainly wait for his side of the story....this is just one side of it and heresay at this point..

Does his numbers up to 99 warrant a HOF bid..

His 12 year span w/ BOS would be close...
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I agree Jump... was more curious to see what people leaving Bonds out to dry when he had a great career prior to any big feat... all within the rules of the game, might think...do you asteriks the B2B Cy Youngs, take away do you take away the 160+ wins making him barely reconizable in hall standards for a career?

Personally I dont think so and marvel at what he has accomplished and dont take a thing away,
 
What sucks is that the Mitchell report scrapes the iceberg...for God's sake, Brian Giles is clean? My ass. My opinion is that you vote the best in from each era because you don't know who did and who did not do what. I severely dislike Roger Clemens, but am a Bonds fan and would put both in the HOF simply because they're the best in their respective fields during this era.
 
thats been my point for the whole time... the 'steroids era' is just that, the atmosphere in which ALL players played in, some did it, some didnt of course. But much like rules in the past, its within the atmosphere these guys played in
 
Santacapper said:
thats been my point for the whole time... the 'steroids era' is just that, the atmosphere in which ALL players played in, some did it, some didnt of course. But much like rules in the past, its within the atmosphere these guys played in
Click to expand...

Was it the atmosphere of the game? Why wasnt everone taking them? It was a way to get an advantage over guys that weren't taking them. Were steroids legal then? Thats the real question. Discuss.
 
Santacapper said:
of course it was legal within MLB... they chose to have no drug policy, while having one in the minors....
Click to expand...
Thats why this discussion should be open and shut.

Some guys were scared..due to health effects. Others did them. At same point Clemens pitched against guys on them.

Its like any other "era" in baseball. The 70's sure as hell were not innocent.

The dead-ball era

The juiced ball era..

whatever.

HOF'er, no doubt.
 
why is that fondy...I've never gotten this first vote deal w/ the baseball HOF..

You're either a HOF or not in my eyes..

Just curious..
 
JumpOnBoard said:
why is that fondy...I've never gotten this first vote deal w/ the baseball HOF..

You're either a HOF or not in my eyes..

Just curious..
Click to expand...
BTW..HOF is Yag for baseball anyway

I'll go homer here...but if Trammel and Whitaker..at least one are not in..whats point of a HOF?

I'll put up numbers to supports if anyone wants to disagree..and Imma sure others have old stars they support for their teams that should be in.
 
i am in the minoity i guess on this one. if i believe he was using steroids with a high percentage of certainty , then i would NOT vote him into the hall of fame.

i also do not believe that you can equate dead ball eras , and live ball eras etc with steroids. "Dead" balls effected every pitcher and every batter..... steroids were done by some ( maybe most who knows ) but were definitely not done by some. And what makes this worse is that the players who were using steroids were basically stealing money from those that weren't. Not only were they routinely getting bigger contracts but there could very well be a minor league player who didn't make it because he refused to cheat when others did.

And the fact that ALL players of this era played in the time of steroids does not excuse the artificial stats produced by those who cheated, Maybe if Bronson Arroyo had been using steroids he could have had an era under 1.00 !?!?! Not likely ... but the point is ... how can you honestly compare stats of a pitcher or batter on steroids ( cheater ) with those of the pitcher or batter that was not on the juice ( honest ballplayer ) ??

Are you going to create a math model to determine how much the roids aided players and adjust accordingly ???? it is just way too messy ... impossible to do imo .... and that is why i could never vote for a steroid user to be in the hall of fame ............ if the steroids made him a hall of famer ..... then basically i am leaving out someone else who deserved it but didnt juice up.

they already benefited financially in major ways and social ways for their unethical behavior ..... we do not need to reward them more.
 
No, I understand what you're saying, and that steroids are illegal in the US. But at the same time lots of things that go on in the envelope of sports that are governed by a different 'government' could be considered illegal for you and me...

I just think Bud Selig and MLB turned a blind eye to an issue they knew about but didnt do anything because they were coming out of a strike year, chose not to implement a drug testing policy, penalties for positive tests etc.

Do steroids help you, obviously yes, but I totally understand where guys like Clemens are coming from. Its the hall or not, 20 million for a year or pension plans... 6 months of a cycle when it won't get you kicked out of baseball could be an easy decision.
 
HOF, no doubt, first card. It was the era he played in. I am willing to bet 75%-80% of the players were taking some sort of performance enhancing drug to better themselves. It's just like racing, if you aint cheating you aint trying. God bless all the athletes who didn't take PED but you for sure were in the minority.
The only way to make this game pure again is to adapt the Olymoic testing policy. Until then, there are always going to be skeptics and Baseball will never relieve itself of this vlack eye.
 
ok ill play....

well damn man, this debate agreed is some what pointless!

OK SIMPLY PUT!!

DID YOU WEAR A SEATBELT TODAY IN YOUR CAR?
DID YOU WEAR IT WHEN IT WASNT ILLEGAL YET TO NOT HAVE IT ON?

YOURE BUSTED!! i saw your ass in 1978 putting gas in your pinto with NO SEATBELT!! God youre an asshole WHat the fuck is wrong with you!!

GUYS IT WASNT BEING TESTED FOR!!

ILLEGAL? Steroids and certain substances are NOT ILLEGAL!! Illegal in sports? NO SHIT YA FUCKIN THINK? WELL IF YOU DONT TEST ME ILL DO WHAT I WANT!!

And lets see, How many guys juiced up again? 80? YEAH OK maybe 80 a Day in that time frame we know, so the Pitchers are supposed to let the BATTERS feel free to Juice up , but if they do it THEYRE WRONG?!?!

Fuck that, bashin Roger, Man, you go deal with some of the Maniacs that were around when the juice was all over

No one tested for it, NOT ONE TEAM!!

THEN THROW IN THE ASSHOLE OF THIS LIFE!!!

WHO THE FUCK DOES JOSE CANSECO THINK HE IS?
Mr ILL BE THE GUY WHO GETS IT ALL OUT THERE SO everyone else gets Bashed and the attention draws away from ME! YEAH ILL WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT!!!

DUDE ATE MORE ROIDS THAN IVE EATEN BURGERS!!

FUCK HIM!!

All this is stupid, then the guy goes and says I RECOMMEND NO PUNISHMENT, BUT?!?!?!?!? What the fuck is Except in strong cases of............... SHUT UP OLD MAN!!

THE HOF is screwed, and im surprised they backed this the way they did, this could toll on SO many faces and names that still have yet to be discovered that are either in the hall or headed towards it, and the sources Mitchell used to gather info?

YEAH PLEASE, hes a fucking idiot!! Has NO place in Baseball at all, Lets get Senator Mitchell to start a >.................. My god man, this is like Mccain running for President!!

MCCAIN?

GUYS A FUCKING IDIOT WHO GOT CAPTURED IN WAR AND MADE OUT TO BE SOME SAVIOR? I dont even know how he became a Senator, much less a Candidate for our countrys Top spot, Guy couldnt run a CHICKEN SHACK!!!

anyway, good luck with this debate, 50% say It was Wrong and they all should lose everything, 50% will say it wasnt illegal, it may have been wrong but the numbers are there and that cant change, and i think itll be amazing to think the Alltime hits leader and HR leader (Pete and Barry) may likely never get in the Hall at all (obv diff stories and Circumstances)
and i still think what Pete rose did as a player should no way factor in to what he did Manageing and the Scandal and all that, Guys hit, he retired from Playing and should be judged for THAT ALONE!
DId he fuck up? ofcourse he did. anyway

GL with the debate,

JUICE IT UP!!!
 
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