Ovechkin

[scdoggy]

So, the Caps have officially been eliminated from the playoffs and I'm reading this article on ESPN and all of the comments are blaming Ovechkin saying that his lack of defense is the reason this team is where they are. Curious to see if anyone around here feels this way?

From someone who has watched this team from their inception, I've seen some pretty good players come and go. I watched Gartner smoke goalies, Scott Stevens give forwards dirt naps with clean hip checks, Bondra school people with finesse. I've never heard the criticism of any of these guys that Ovie gets. I loved Gartner, but he was the same kind of player as Ovie. Took tons of shots, and scored tons of goals. Look back over the last 30 years of hockey and sure there have been a few Cam Neelys, Mark Messier's, and Pavel Datsyuk's. But players whose game is as complete as these guys are few and far between. The list of players who didn't play shit for defense, and whose game wasn't nearly as physical certainly includes guys like:

Mario Lemieux
Brett Hull
Luc Robataille
Alexander Mogilny


The Caps are a fucked up mess of a franchise because they have had a turd of a general manager who has been allowed to wear out his welcome by Captain AOL (Leonsis). A guy who many love in this town for reasons I'll never understand. How McPhee has been allowed to stick around this long is mystifying. It was telling when Hunter politely declined to stick around despite making a spirited run in the playoffs that nobody saw coming.

But blaming this on Ovechkin is short sighted. I love watching the guy play hockey and could give two shits about his defense. He's a hell of a scorer and plays a physical game. If you wanna bitch about defense, let's talk about Mike Green - a guy who plays less defense than Ovechkin and yet lines up on the blue line to start games. I honestly wonder where this team would be if they didn't have #8....

 

[gsro]

i'd take Mario off that list...early in his career he played a gritty game from what I rmbr, dude could fight too..

truthfully the caps have similar problems that the leafs have and it's their defense is shit...mike green is over rated, alzner's okay but coughs up the puck...look at the leafs phaneuf is over rated, and the leafs have to score 4-5 goals jsut to win games...washington's offense isn't the problem, that whole team's defense is terrible and sure ovechkin COULD play more two way hockey but still doesn't help the entire out look of that team defensively....then there's the goalie situation....go get one...quick..

 

[guaranteeed]

Dale Hunter just didn't like coaching NHL players, he won't ever leave junior again, that's not saying McPhee is a great GM, he gave away Filip Forsberg for nothing

But the big thing made about Ovechkin's minus this year is a lazy narrative

his teammates are scoring on 5% of their shots when he's on the ice, and the other team is coring on 9.6% of their's

that's where the shitty plus minus comes from, part crappy goaltending and bad linesmates, but mostly just rough luck, chances are a huge regression to the mean next year and I would guess he has a huge year and people are talking about a 'revitalized AO'

that being said, since the Olympics he's been shit by his high standards, he's clearly still effected by what happened in Sochi

that's a team that needs a trade just to get some new blood

 

[guaranteeed]

and the criticism only comes because he's Russian

there's a stigma with them

 

[Dollaz]

As a Caps fan, I don't know where they go. Do they try to get another piece alongside Ovie? Is Backstrom good enough as the 2nd man?

 

[scdoggy]

Yeah Teed - maybe it is because he's Russian, and more of a flamboyant type of player who draws attention/criticism to himself. I agree on what you have in the above posts. The probablem isn't your 50 goal scorer not playing defense - its the 8 guys who are defensemen not playing defense that is your problem.

GSRO - Caps and Leafs do have a lot of similarities. Two of the more pathetic franchises out there in the NHL.

Dollaz - Backstrom is good. Actually reminds me of Oates as a player. Wish he'd shoot more, but when you play alongside a scorer like Ovie (or in Oates case Hull) those setups are just as important as the points that come from the shooter. I think what this team needs is defense. Their forwards/offense could be tweaked but it isn't whats wrong.

 

[New_York_Bob]

I think one of the biggest problems is Caps fans keep comparing Ovie to Crosby...and in every way, shape or form...
he comes up short.

Another year, and again Crosby has a scoring title ( and a gold medal )

caps management has been a mess for a long time.
Boudreau was a good coach: they got rid of him.

 

[Gandolf]

When you have a supreme talent like Ovechkin, you need to build around him with offensive talent and then you need to play an offensive game. Then you hope you can ramp up your defensive play once the playoffs start. That's pretty much been the Pens strategy since Mario was in his heyday.

Once Boudreau was fired and Semin was let go, they tried to change their style and frankly a more conscientious two way style just doesn't fit.

BTW Mario was an outstanding 2 way-player when he wanted to be. He was a regular on the penalty kill in the 80's.

The Caps gave up 233 goals in 2009-2010, Ovechkin scored 50 goals and the team had 121 points. They gave up 239 this year, Ovechkin scored 51 and the team only had 89 points.

You have to play to your teams strengths, that's team building rule #1.

 

[New_York_Bob]

Well said

They tried to make their team a grind it out 3-2 team and that failed.

1 thing Oates needs to do for next season is just lose Ovechkin name for shootouts.
2 for 16 this season

 

[Dollaz]

I think one of the biggest problems is Caps fans keep comparing Ovie to Crosby...and in every way, shape or form...
he comes up short.

Another year, and again Crosby has a scoring title ( and a gold medal )

caps management has been a mess for a long time.
Boudreau was a good coach: they got rid of him.

Ovie doesn't have the surrounding talent that Crysby has either.

 

[guaranteeed]

he arguably has better

Crosby and Malkin rarely play together unless they are behind, Ovechkin can play a ton with Backstrom who is far better than any Penguins winger

if there was suddenly a draft to build teams Crosby would go 1 instantly

Ovechkin probably in the 8-13 range

 

[Dollaz]

he arguably has better

Crosby and Malkin rarely play together unless they are behind, Ovechkin can play a ton with Backstrom who is far better than any Penguins winger

if there was suddenly a draft to build teams Crosby would go 1 instantly

Ovechkin probably in the 8-13 range

Im talking team around him accounting for wins/losses.

I agree. Crosby would go ahead. 8-13; I would say higher than that. He's disgustingly good at scoring goals while playing with no one else that is a threat to score

 

[guaranteeed]

disagree again

after the 4-5 top end guys Pittsburgh's team is worse than a lot of non-playoff teams bottom 6 F and 3-6 D

their 3rd/4th lines are why they aren't winning the cup this year, because they have two of the top 4 C's in Hockey

 

[Dollaz]

disagree again

after the 4-5 top end guys Pittsburgh's team is worse than a lot of non-playoff teams bottom 6 F and 3-6 D

their 3rd/4th lines are why they aren't winning the cup this year, because they have two of the top 4 C's in Hockey

the Caps, OTOH might have the worst blue line in hockey and shitty goaltending.

 

[New_York_Bob]

Im talking team around him accounting for wins/losses.

I agree. Crosby would go ahead. 8-13; I would say higher than that. He's disgustingly good at scoring goals while playing with no one else that is a threat to score

How many even strength goals?
How many shootout goals?
+/- ?

 

[New_York_Bob]

disagree again

after the 4-5 top end guys Pittsburgh's team is worse than a lot of non-playoff teams bottom 6 F and 3-6 D

their 3rd/4th lines are why they aren't winning the cup this year, because they have two of the top 4 C's in Hockey

That and Fleury will shit the bed and give up at least 2 bad goals in a big game or 2

 

[Dollaz]

How many even strength goals?
How many shootout goals?
+/- ?

27 even strength goals. Do power play goals not count?

 

[New_York_Bob]

27 even strength goals. Do power play goals not count?

Of course they do, but disgustingly good goal scorers should have a better % even strength and score shootout goals at higher than 12.5%

IMO

 

[Dollaz]

27 even strength goals is pretty good, no?

Shootout ability is something completely different.

 

[Gandolf]

Behind the net has Time on ice stats:

Crosby in 5 on 5 average 2.9 pts/60 minutes (G-1.06, 1st A-1.11, 2nd A-0.72) and played the most with:

Kunitz 79.3%
Dupuis 33.2
Stempniak 14.7
Neal 11.1
Gibbons 11.1
Malkin 8.8


Ovechkin 5 on 5 averaged 1.86 points/60 min (G-1.40, 1st A-0.29, 2nd A-0.17) and played with:

Backstrom 70.6%
Johannson 55.5
Brouwer 23.8
Grabovski 17.6
Erat 14.8
Laich 11.7


On the power play, Crosby averaged 6.62 pts/60 min (G-2.08, 1st A-1.70, 2nd A-2.84) and played with:

Kunitz 80.0%
Malkin 75.1
Neal 59.3
Niskanen 56.8
Letang 36.2
Jokenen 35.1
Martin 28.1

Ovechkin averaged 6.37 pts/60 min (G-3.82, 1st A-0.91, 2nd A-1.64) and played with:

Backstrom 68.1%
Brouwer 65.5
Johansson 57.2
Carlson 57.2
Green 41.2
Ward 30.0
Grabovski 19.9
Erat 17.5
Laich 14.6
Chimera 14.5

I don't think it's even close on the power play talent. Kunitz, Malkin, Neal, Niskanen and Letang is a top 15 PP unit by itself. While Ovechkin had to do the heavy lifting (look at the goals/60 min number) on a weaker unit, Crosby got to pad his stats with 63% of his assists being secondary, many as simple feeds from the half boards to the point men (usually Malkin, Letang and Niskanen).

5 on 5? Yeah, 87 was better. Whether he had more help depends on your opinion of Backstrom and Johansson vs. Kunitz. I can tell you who has the better shooting ability, it's Kunitz. Those assist numbers for Ovechkin 5on5 are horrendous, but how much of that is on him and how much is on his mates?

One last measurement, defenseman scoring. Pens D contributed 41 goals this year, Washington 32. A little extra boost in blue line effectiveness to help 87, whose game is heavy on passes to the point. Why would Ovechkin pass it backwards when he's the much better shot, usually in a better position? His game is more geared towards pushing play towards the net at all times.