Message to Lou Pinella................Hey Lou........

New_York_Bob

New_York_Bob

Pretty much a regular
How's that laying down against the Brewers strategy looking?:36_11_6:

All the Flubs needed to do was beat the Brewers, and your team would have had a cakewalk against the Mets.

You chose to lay down against the Brewers ( still winning one game though ) and you picked to play the Dodgers ( who have more clutch hitting, and better pitching than the Mets )

Not looking like a wise decision so far

Hope the Cubs get swept.



GO TAMPA
GO DODGERS
 
manny543.jpg
 
BetCrimes1984 said:
And so they'd face the Dodgers in a 7 game NLC series, because Philly doesnt beat LA.
Click to expand...

When you haven't won a postseason game since the dead sea was just a little ill, I would take the 5 game series vs the Mutts as a warm up, and then the 2-2-1-1-1 series against the Dodgers ( personally I think the Phils would have beaten the Dodgers in a 5 game series )

Either way, I think a 2-2-1-1-1 favors the Cubs over the Dodgers more than a 2-2-1
 
BetCrimes1984 said:
And so they'd face the Dodgers in a 7 game NLC series, because Philly doesnt beat LA.
Click to expand...

Not that Lou should know but the Dodgers are an extremely scary matchup for the Phillies in a five game. The Cubs would have handled the Mets in 4 games max, no doubt about it. Lou had the opportunity in the final week to determine who played where and he gave his team a very difficult path to the World Series.
 
Not that Lou should know but the Dodgers are an extremely scary matchup for the Phillies in a five game. The Cubs would have handled the Mets in 4 games max, no doubt about it. Lou had the opportunity in the final week to determine who played where and he gave his team a very difficult path to the World Series.
Click to expand...

And Lou also wasnt to know Kuo wouldnt be available for the divisional series, but will be for the NLCS. And LA are a much more dangerous team with Kuo available than not.

Lou made the right choice. Lou fucked up not pulling his pitcher when he issued his 7th walk to load the bases with 2 out in the 5th.
 
He played a "B" team against the choking Mets, beat them twice, and it took the "D" team relief pitching to blow a 6-3 7th inning lead in another game.

That alone should have been a signal that he needed to play to beat the Brewers.

If he beat the 2 of 3 ( if not all 3 )
He gets the Mets.

He gets to give his team some playoff experience at winning, and gets them relaxed to play the Dodgers or Phillies ( both series starting in Chicago )
 
You cant fault Lou for Milw though. These teams lack depth ( most modern teams do ) and just cant risk using a pitcher in a meaningless game . I thought for what it was worth that Chi played Milw very well in that 3 game series . I believe he scratched Zambrano on Sunday but can we fault him ? It's not like Big Z is 100% healthy . We can always second guess a little and rightfully so in many cases but there was nothing that can say that Cubs starters would have beaten Milw. Problem with Chicago is they started the series with there #3 SP and faced probably the best LAD had to offer and were 1 out away from leading 2-0 in an official game where you can maybe get your pen into the game in the 6th inning. Dempster walked the bases loaded , got ahead 0-2 and serves up a GS . Cant put that on Lou really . 1 pitch away from a 2 run lead with 12 outs to play . Last year pulling Big Z after 6 innings that was a clear mistake .

The Milw series .....granted there is no way I would ever disagree that playing NYM would be better but its just a damned if you do and damned if you dont type situation.....
 
Serious question I'll pose to you guys and NY Bob of course ....

What do you guys think of Hamels being pulled after 8 magnificent innings which he tossed just 101 pitches for Brad Lidge . Who wound up 1 hit away from blowing the lead and having another postseason blown save ?

:shake:

If they were to have lost what would that have done to the Phillies ??
 
what makes everyone so confident the dodgers would smoke the phillies?

last time they played, the Phils swept 4 from em...
 
Satyr said:
bingo.
Click to expand...

Actually while we can criticize him for that he still had Loney 0-2 . Really the worst possible thing happened in that atbat .

Also you have to understand Ryan Dempster has been so good for you all season its not easy to pull him with a 2-0 lead for Sean Marshall . Its not like Marshall is some stud youngster or highly praised pitcher . He has been a decent and quality arm for them but is that the move you make in the playoffs?

Lou was kinda stuck without a reliable LH to go to in the pen. Really it was the 6th walk to Manny which should have gotten pulled if your gonna pull him with a lead. It allows Marshall to pitch with 1st and 2nd so he has some room for error and he has two LHBs in Either and Loney to face . I dont think its automatic to bring Sean Marshall into a bases loaded spot in the 5th to face a LHP. He just doesnt have that type of resume and Dempster has probably wiggled out of a number of jams for the Cubs in 2008....Especially to face Either a 240 something hitter vs LHSP with just 3 hrs....

Basically I think you have to probably pull Dempster with LHBs in the 4 and 5 holes but only option was a converted starter in Sean Marshall as Neal Cotts has been ineffective in 2008 . Also LHB hit 269 against Marshall this year and Marshall wasnt exactly effective in 2 chances @ Milw this weekend which may have been on Lou's mind when debating it .....so not really a correct answer chances are most managers are gonna let the SP work out of it . The only thing I owuld have thought about is Samardzija who held LHB to a 167 clip.....for Dempster and you know that he can pitch the 6th as well and you have your 7th-8-9 inning setup......

:shake:
Really though the hidden message to the game is thats why WALKS are so costly to a SP .....
 
SportsNut said:
Serious question I'll pose to you guys and NY Bob of course ....

What do you guys think of Hamels being pulled after 8 magnificent innings which he tossed just 101 pitches for Brad Lidge . Who wound up 1 hit away from blowing the lead and having another postseason blown save ?

:shake:

If they were to have lost what would that have done to the Phillies ??
Click to expand...


It was a terrible decision by Manuel. He should have sent Hamels out for the ninth as there was no reason not to. He got out of the 7th and 8th easily. If he walked the first guy or the leadoff guy got a hit, you can go to Lidge with the game well in hand.



The problem with going to Lidge is that you're stuck with him for better or worse. Not only that but you have a game tomorrow and if you don't have to use Lidge, then you don't.


If the Phillies lost today the series was over. Thankfully for me they won.
 
MusicCityGambler said:
It was a terrible decision by Manuel. He should have sent Hamels out for the ninth as there was no reason not to. He got out of the 7th and 8th easily. If he walked the first guy or the leadoff guy got a hit, you can go to Lidge with the game well in hand.



The problem with going to Lidge is that you're stuck with him for better or worse. Not only that but you have a game tomorrow and if you don't have to use Lidge, then you don't.


If the Phillies lost today the series was over. Thankfully for me they won.
Click to expand...

I agree with you . The reason why I asked that because I think it was a glaring error where he had a viable option. Where Pinella was kinda stuck . He had 3 choices did Lou :
1- Stick with Dempster who has been very good for you all season
2- Pull Dempster for the LHP Marshall which I felt was best to do vs Either but really doesnt matter in that sense
3- Pull Dempster for the young RH Samardzija who despite great stuff is still a rookie making his postseason debut in a crucial spot . Could he handle it ......

So really Lou was limited IMO while clearly Hamels could have gone to 115 pitches without much effort and any missteps and you risk losing Lidge for tmrw and maybe pyschologically for the series ......:shake:
 
Manuel is a nutcase for pullin Hamels.


And the KEY out for the Cubs was Ethier. The moment Ethier got on (meaning Dempster had FAILED right there, right then) and Loney was up for the now loaded bases, on that basis alone he needed to be pulled.

Ethier was the one who failed as the 3rd out with bases loaded 2 innings previously, and he had to be the patsy again w/a RISP. Walking Ethier was an absolutely criminal act on Dempster's part. Dempster personally was not going to be allowed to get away with it IF he was allowed to pitch on. That's why he needed to be pulled. Justice would not allow him to remain in and get away unscathed. At that point it wasn't about X's & O's, it was about recognising that the guy out there WAS DONE.
After the GS he was STILL left in, and what happened? Next batter doubled. What a suprise.

Dempster was done the moment he walked Ethier, and Lou remained oblivious to it.
 
Good point BC. Very good point . I wasnt home and heard the GS on the radio driving to play hoops so I actually missed the atbats to the previous batters . Good point about how he was left in so he never seriously entertained pulling him then I guess . Like I said if your gonna pull with who is available you have to do with Either up to provide him 2 chances with an open base and 2 run lead to get out of the jam. Absolutely agree seeing now how it unfolded that Dempster was past toast and that should have at least been recognized ......
 
Nut, the Ump BHP had a fucked zone all night long. Lowe bit the bullet and caved in, which is why the Cubs got so many hits (up until the GS sucked the wind completely out of them). Dempster just wouldn't give in, and personally I think by the time he walked Ethier, he was gone in the head. When he came to Loney's AB, he just fired strike after strike and Loney knew what was coming (Loney would've been the only LA AB longer than 2 pitches off Dempster *that saw only 1 ball thrown).
 
Obviously the move to Lidge almost blew up in his face, but its nowhere near Charlies worst move or anything

Why would he think his lights out closer whos been perfect all year wouldnt be able to get 3 outs?

Hamels was at 101 pitches, has pitched a career high in innings this year, has a reputation for being someone fragile and (most importantly) might have to pitch on 3 days rest for the first time in his career on Sunday.

Putting Lidge in was far from an indefensible move

Of course all that being said, I wouldve let Cole start the inning at the least...
 
Smokedawg said:
Obviously the move to Lidge almost blew up in his face, but its nowhere near Charlies worst move or anything

Why would he think his lights out closer whos been perfect all year wouldnt be able to get 3 outs?

Hamels was at 101 pitches, has pitched a career high in innings this year, has a reputation for being someone fragile and (most importantly) might have to pitch on 3 days rest for the first time in his career on Sunday.

Putting Lidge in was far from an indefensible move

Of course all that being said, I wouldve let Cole start the inning at the least...
Click to expand...

Lidge hasnt blown saves but he is far , far from lights out . I can recall a few bases laoded no out jams he started and had to escape. Not to mention the spectular failures he has in previous postseasons The guy really hasnt done much to change my perception of him. Great stuff - YES but great closer not IMO. Not even Top 10 this season.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=ysptblthbody1 align=right><TD class=yspdetailttl>G</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>GS</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>W</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>L</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>SV</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>CG</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>SHO</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>IP</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>H</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>R</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>ER</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>HR</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>BB</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>K</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>ERA</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>WHIP</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>BAA</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left height=16> Pre-All Star</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16> </TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>40</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>2</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>20</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>40.0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>26</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>7</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>5</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>19</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>55</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>1.13</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>1.13</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>.181</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left height=16> Post-All Star</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16> </TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>32</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>21</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>29.1</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>24</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>10</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>10</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>2</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>16</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>37</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>3.07</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>1.36</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>.220</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I give you lights out till July but since then he is avg at best as fasr as closers go....40 baserunners in 29.1 is actually poor ....
 
SportsNut said:
Actually while we can criticize him for that he still had Loney 0-2 . Really the worst possible thing happened in that atbat .

Also you have to understand Ryan Dempster has been so good for you all season its not easy to pull him with a 2-0 lead for Sean Marshall . Its not like Marshall is some stud youngster or highly praised pitcher . He has been a decent and quality arm for them but is that the move you make in the playoffs?

Lou was kinda stuck without a reliable LH to go to in the pen. Really it was the 6th walk to Manny which should have gotten pulled if your gonna pull him with a lead. It allows Marshall to pitch with 1st and 2nd so he has some room for error and he has two LHBs in Either and Loney to face . I dont think its automatic to bring Sean Marshall into a bases loaded spot in the 5th to face a LHP. He just doesnt have that type of resume and Dempster has probably wiggled out of a number of jams for the Cubs in 2008....Especially to face Either a 240 something hitter vs LHSP with just 3 hrs....

Basically I think you have to probably pull Dempster with LHBs in the 4 and 5 holes but only option was a converted starter in Sean Marshall as Neal Cotts has been ineffective in 2008 . Also LHB hit 269 against Marshall this year and Marshall wasnt exactly effective in 2 chances @ Milw this weekend which may have been on Lou's mind when debating it .....so not really a correct answer chances are most managers are gonna let the SP work out of it . The only thing I owuld have thought about is Samardzija who held LHB to a 167 clip.....for Dempster and you know that he can pitch the 6th as well and you have your 7th-8-9 inning setup......

:shake:
Really though the hidden message to the game is thats why WALKS are so costly to a SP .....
Click to expand...

fuck having loney 0-2 that inning, he had 3 guys 0-2 that inning before walking 2 of em. He had Manny 0-2 and then threw 4 pitches that were not even remotely close.
 
SportsNut said:
Lidge hasnt blown saves but he is far , far from lights out . I can recall a few bases laoded no out jams he started and had to escape. Not to mention the spectular failures he has in previous postseasons The guy really hasnt done much to change my perception of him. Great stuff - YES but great closer not IMO. Not even Top 10 this season.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"><td class="yspdetailttl">G</td><td class="yspdetailttl">GS</td><td class="yspdetailttl">W</td><td class="yspdetailttl">L</td><td class="yspdetailttl">SV</td><td class="yspdetailttl">CG</td><td class="yspdetailttl">SHO</td><td class="yspdetailttl">IP</td><td class="yspdetailttl">H</td><td class="yspdetailttl">R</td><td class="yspdetailttl">ER</td><td class="yspdetailttl">HR</td><td class="yspdetailttl">BB</td><td class="yspdetailttl">K</td><td class="yspdetailttl">ERA</td><td class="yspdetailttl">WHIP</td><td class="yspdetailttl">BAA</td><td>
</td></tr><tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left" height="16"> Pre-All Star</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">
</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">40</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">2</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">20</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">40.0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">26</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">7</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">5</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">19</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">55</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">1.13</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">1.13</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">.181</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">
</td></tr><tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left" height="16"> Post-All Star</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">
</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">32</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">21</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">0</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">29.1</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">24</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">10</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">10</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">2</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">16</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">37</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">3.07</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">1.36</td><td class="yspscores" height="16">.220</td></tr></tbody></table>

I give you lights out till July but since then he is avg at best as fasr as closers go....40 baserunners in 29.1 is actually poor ....
Click to expand...

He can load the bases every time for all I care as long as he doesnt let in any runs...the guys let in 15 runs all year...you take away one fluke (non save situation) performance against Atlanta where he let up 5 runs without getting an out (which was soon after that asshole in Colorado warmed him up 32 times in the All Star Game and fucked him up for 2 weeks) and he has an ERA of 1.30

Sure he puts runners on base...but thats a luxury he can afford seeing how hes the ALL TIME LEADER in Ks per 9 at something ridiculous like 12.5...he just likes to let the other team think they have a chance before he crushes their manhood and strikes out the side
 
Its true with Lidge the bottomline is you seal the deal . I wouldnt argue with that . My belief is playoff time is added pressure and better competition so the more chances you give an opponent then the more likely you will fail in those situations . Wiggling out vs the Braves or whoever it was most recently is a cakewalk compared to doing it vs Milw. Was that not the most lame swing you have ever seen by Hart to end it ? Lidge gassed him up but it was just such a lay swing for that situation ...

I know your a Philly fan and all but look at what some other setup and closers types did in 2008 . Discounting saves there are at least 10 guys I think were much better relievers and had just as impressive K per 9s and better WHIP and opposing BAA....

His postseason history leaves something to be desired. Personally I dont pull Hamels there as there is just no excuse IMO . One inning 10-15 pitches isnt going to mean anything when he is gonna toss a few changeups in there . Mixing fastball and changes has such a minimal effect on your arm....plus it was effortless with few pitches thrown from the stretch.....

Lidge had a very good year but he showed yesterday why he is questionable still...at least IMO..
 
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left height=16>2004</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left height=16>HOU</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>80</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>6</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>5</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>29</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>94.2</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>57</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>21</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>20</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>8</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>30</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>157</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>1.90</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>0.92</TD><TD class=yspscores height=16>.174</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

That was Lidge in 04 and one of the sickest performances ever for a reliever . I do think Carlos Marmol came very close to that type performance in 08.....

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=ysprow1 align=middle height=20><TD class=yspscores align=right>82 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>2 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>4 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>7 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>87.1 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>40 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>30 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>26 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>10 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>41 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>114 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>2.68 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0.93 </TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg6 align=right>.135 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
Throwback420 said:
yup Kuroda got shit the bed but can the Cubs cool off the dodgers bats ? I dont think so.
Click to expand...


kookookuroda :36_11_6:


i think harden can...but only for 5 innings max. they'll have to go to notre dame and marmalade pretty early...but it's not like they can't throw out all the stops at this point.


seriously though, i didn't like that 9th inning at all. sometimes that's all it takes...a late inning like that in game that was decided long ago...to turn things around.
i planned to jump on the cubs in game 3 regardless. but seeing that 9th...and thinking that could get their team/those bats going...instantly made me think about an hova play in game 3 as well. obviously need to see where it comes out...but it's not like kuroda's going to be putting up zeros on saturday either.
 
New_York_Bob said:
How bad is the NL Central?

The Nationals might win that division going away
Click to expand...

that's the problem w/ people comparing 162 games to a five game series

throughout the course of a season, you not only need a sound pitching staff and a decent pen, but you also need depth

which is what the cubs have

it's unfortunate that they can't play 15 guys a night, and your thought was ludicrous.
 
SportsNut said:
Serious question I'll pose to you guys and NY Bob of course ....

What do you guys think of Hamels being pulled after 8 magnificent innings which he tossed just 101 pitches for Brad Lidge . Who wound up 1 hit away from blowing the lead and having another postseason blown save ?

:shake:

If they were to have lost what would that have done to the Phillies ??
Click to expand...

Yep, in these situations I'm a fan of basically telling Hamels that he's out there for the 9th until someone reaches base.
 
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