Lottery Balls or 7th/8th seed? Discussion....
- Thread starter B.A.R.
- Start date
Lottery balls any day of the week. Some of your older guys may remember this team, but I like to refer to why I would take lottery balls as the "80s Milwaukee Bucks syndrome". They would make the playoffs every year for like 10 straight years and never make it past the 2nd round, except maybe one year where they might have made the conference finals and then got spanked by the great Bird Celtics teams (if my memory serves me correctly).
In sports, the worst thing to be is blatantly average. NBA teams that win between 35 to 45 games fall into this category...you can't get better via the draft because you may sneak in an make the playoffs as a low seed (or maybe even win a round), but you're not going anywhere. If you pull a Sixers and tank completely...if AND ONLY IF...you have the right leadership starting from the top...all that talent accumulation from high draft picks will eventually lead you to a chance to build a team to win a title...but if you fuck up with a garbage owner and/or GM, you're fucked.
So I'd say give me the chance to get a franchise changing guy for your team and endure being bad for a while instead of winning 1 playoff game every other year. The Boston Celtics during the Pitino years are still suffering from when San Antonio won the lottery and got to draft a guy named Tim Duncan.
The NBA is about rings. Plain and simple, nothing else matters.
divol
The Spurs can suck my manhood
And you really think that 13th pick is that much better than 15th pick? The question, as I at least presented it, in the other thread, was, is it better to grab 7th-8th seed and get to the playoffs or get the 9th or 10th place in the Conference to get in to the lottery.
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
lottery balls in every scenario
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
I don't know if this discussion is from a fans perspective or from a player/coach/organization perspective... two totally different things.
It's somewhat of a silly topic because there are two completely polar opposite sides with very little explanation/evidence on both sides.
I just cannot see how anyone can possible put themselves in the shoes of a player/coach/GM and say you wouldn't want to fight to make the playoffs. It's just a ridiculous notion.
No reason to waste anymore time on this imo
It's somewhat of a silly topic because there are two completely polar opposite sides with very little explanation/evidence on both sides.
I just cannot see how anyone can possible put themselves in the shoes of a player/coach/GM and say you wouldn't want to fight to make the playoffs. It's just a ridiculous notion.
No reason to waste anymore time on this imo
D
dudleysdad
Guest
well the sixers were/are in this spot recently
i will take the lottery all day
they were a 7/8 seed for 2 yrs in a row when the heat had lebron, they had no chance, lottery was the better deal. sure they stink now. i dont care. i rather suck for 3 yrs and try to build a possible future champ than put together 3 yrs of 6/7/8 seeds and be bounced in rd 1
i will take the lottery all day
they were a 7/8 seed for 2 yrs in a row when the heat had lebron, they had no chance, lottery was the better deal. sure they stink now. i dont care. i rather suck for 3 yrs and try to build a possible future champ than put together 3 yrs of 6/7/8 seeds and be bounced in rd 1
I think if you believe that the lottery route is the way to go that the key to even having a chance is based on solid leadership at the top of the organization. A good owner and GM I think are vital in order to have the "tanking" plan potentially lead to success down the line.
Look at a team like Sacramento for example...Cousins has a world of talent, but the owner is wackjob and Vlade now GM'ing basically has to do things around the owners' wishes. So they got a great talent, but never had the ability to teach him how to become a professional by surrounding him with the proper coaching, organizational leadership and discipline to grow beyond being a guy with major talent but no control/way to improve his game as he gets older. No way that guy will stay in Sacto once he can bust out.
Look at a team like Sacramento for example...Cousins has a world of talent, but the owner is wackjob and Vlade now GM'ing basically has to do things around the owners' wishes. So they got a great talent, but never had the ability to teach him how to become a professional by surrounding him with the proper coaching, organizational leadership and discipline to grow beyond being a guy with major talent but no control/way to improve his game as he gets older. No way that guy will stay in Sacto once he can bust out.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
oh totally agree on the ownership comments... Ranadive has no idea wtf he's doing in Sacramento... eerily similar to the Russian in Brooklyn
These billionaires think they could just come in to the league and make a big splash and buy rings. Doesn't work that way at all. Really bad for the league as a whole imo. The new Kings arena is going to be awesome though.
These billionaires think they could just come in to the league and make a big splash and buy rings. Doesn't work that way at all. Really bad for the league as a whole imo. The new Kings arena is going to be awesome though.
D
dudleysdad
Guest
i think cousins is a talent and a whackjob headcase
I agree with that too, Dud. He's never had to be in control...so why should he? That's what I think HIS mindset is. He knows he's bolting for a different team once he can leave NoCal. How he'll get remembered is for what he does when he goes to his new team...does he change his tune and become coachable because he's happy or does he continue his childish undisciplined style of play he has had since joining the league.
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Lareux
Guest
No Divol, again you're making it a specific pick, like the 13th pick. That's NOT the same thing as having the chance for the top pick or being the 8th seed. The conversation would be much different if it were 8th seed or the 13th pick specifically. Having he chance for the top pick is what the question was.
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Lareux
Guest
It was from the GM's perspective. What the GM would like to do and what they do are also two different things, for a multitude of reasons. If you asked any GM what he would want to do, every single GM would choose a chance at the top pick vs. being an 8 seed and most likely getting swept.
divol
The Spurs can suck my manhood
No, again, it's totally different discussion between tanking to get top 3 picks or being in a spot, where you can try and fight for playoffs or ending up in the 18th or 17th place and go to lottery.
Do you agree that it's better to try and get to the playoffs than finish just on outside of it?
There have been so many teams even in this century who were middle of the road that would make playoffs most years say 6-8 seed and obviously bow out in round one that never accomplished anything.
What's the point? 2-3 home games in playoffs for money?
Better off having that small chance at a top 3 pick to make your team perhaps a 1-4 seed instead.
Fairly simple here, but we all can agree to disagree.
What's the point? 2-3 home games in playoffs for money?
Better off having that small chance at a top 3 pick to make your team perhaps a 1-4 seed instead.
Fairly simple here, but we all can agree to disagree.
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
If you were an athlete living paycheck to paycheck (yes those exist) you'd want to make the playoffs
Playoff Perks For Pro Athletes
By Michael Macklon | Updated April 26, 2013
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Professional athletes are often criticized for making too much money to play a "game." Some superstar athletes, such as the NFL's Peyton Manning, are paid almost $1 million per game to lead their teams to the playoffs, where they have the chance to compete for a championship. But for all the money that team owners invest in top-flight talent just to make the playoffs, players receive relatively little compensation for playoff games. With the exception of some players who have negotiated bonus clauses for the playoffs, most professional athletes aren't paid by their teams for playoff games. But don't send relief funds to the Red Cross just yet. America's major sports leagues have generously created individual revenue-sharing programs that reward teams for playoff success. Here's a look at the playoff payouts for America's favorite pro sports.
<article> TUTORIAL: Advanced Estate Planning
The National Football League
With a 17-game season, NFL players pull down some of the top dollars-per-game contracts in sports. But once the playoffs start, NFL players are among the lowest compensated athletes in any major U.S. sport. With only 11 single-elimination games in the NFL playoffs, the league's playoff format simply isn't generating as much money as lengthier setups such as the NBA's 15 best-of-seven series, which allow for over 100 post-season games. However, this football scarcity creates fanatical interest for each do-or-die game, which generates plenty of money to spread around. According to Mike Mulligan of the Chicago Sun-Times, "(NFL) players earn $21,000 for winning a wild-card game and $19,000 for losing one. That rises to $21,000 for the divisional round and $38,000 for the conference championship game. Players on a Super Bowl winner receive $83,000 each; the losers get $42,000 each." For many of us, these single-game paychecks equate to a year's work or more, and it's not likely that your hard work is going to see your mug on a Wheaties box any time soon. Maybe next time, champ.
Major League Baseball
While NFL players are paid for a 17-game season with games played weekly, MLB players are paid to compete over a 162-game schedule, with games often played on back-to-back days or even doubleheaders. But once the playoffs start, baseball players are mostly in it for the chance to raise the Commissioner's Trophy as MLB champions. According to the MLB Players' Association, the league pays out playoff bonuses based on a percentage of revenue generated throughout the playoff year: "The Players' pool is created from 60% of the total gate receipts from the first four World Series games; 60% of the total gate receipts from the first four games of each League Championship Series; and 60% of the total gate receipts from the first three games of each Division Series. The pool is distributed as follows: World Series Winning Team: 36%; World Series Loser: 24%; League Championship Series Losers (two teams): 12% each; Division Series losers (four teams): 3% each; Non-wild Card second place teams (four teams): 1% each." To create more incentive, teams vote as to how to divvy up the bonus cash, allowing top performers to earn a bigger piece of the pie than the pine-jockeys.
See: Going All-In: Comparing Investing And Gambling
The 2010 World Series brought about a unique situation in which the Texas Ranger's Bengie Molina stood to gain a championship ring and a cut of the bonus cash – win or lose. Molina split his season between the eventual 2010 champions, the San Francisco Giants, and the runner-up Rangers, and it's suspected that his close relationship with the Giants team secured him a share of the bonus money. Considering each member of the 2009 Championship Yankees squad received $365,052.73, Molina likely pocketed a tidy payday for coming up short in the big game.
The National Hockey League
It's said that the NHL playoffs is the most grueling championship tournament in sports. To win the Stanley Cup, a team must win four best-of-seven series in one of the roughest games in North America (when was the last time you saw two quarterbacks have a bare-knuckles fist fight?) However, hockey's popularity is far below that of baseball, football or basketball, which means that there is less revenue to trickle down to the players. According to the NHL's collective bargaining agreement, "A single lump-sum payment of $6,500,000 shall be made by the NHL to the players on account of a player fund, which shall be allocated to the players on clubs participating in the various playoff rounds and/or based upon club finish, as shall be determined by the NHLPA, subject to approval by the League."
Beyond the league revenue sharing incentives, individual contract clauses can motivate many players. Money might have played a small part in the Chicago Blackhawks' 2010 Cup win, as the team's captain, Jonathan Toews, collected a $1.3 million bonus from the team for winning the Conn Smythe trophy as the playoff's MVP.
The National Basketball Association
The NBA's salary cap restricts teams from providing significant bonuses to players for post-season performances, but there is a league-wide playoff kitty, similar to the previously mentioned leagues. 2010's playoff pool reached a record $12 million, but not all of that money is allotted for playoff performances. Last year $346,105 was awarded to the Cleveland Cavaliers for having the best record in the regular season, as well as a share of the $179,092 that's guaranteed to playoff-bound teams. The teams that made it to the quarter-finals split $213,095, and teams in the semi-finals divvied $352,137. Last year's finalists, the Los Angeles Lakers and Boston Celtics, split $1.4 million, with the Lakers netting an additional $2.1 million for taking home the Larry O'Brien trophy.
This year's final may be able to produce even more revenue that last year's, as fans will be curious to see if the Miami Heat's $43 million "Dream Team" of LeBron James, Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosch (and 12 other guys who've forgotten what a basketball feels like) can beat Mark Cuban's Dallas Mavericks.
The Bottom Line
Athletes in the playoffs may not be playing for regular paychecks, but jobs are still on the line. Athletes who fail to gain playoff experience aren't as valuable as proven playoff performers and when a team fails to be competitive, numerous player, coaching and management changes are inevitable. But if personal pride, a stellar resume and increased job security aren't enough incentive for some pro athletes, each league has reserved a bit of lunch money to up the ante and help tide athletes over for the long off-season.
</article>
divol
The Spurs can suck my manhood
But look at the Dubs, Dallas, Miami, Boston, Lakers - all won titles not having to tank Sixers style and so on...
When was the last team that actually won the title via full rebuild?
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
that's your opinion
nbafan88
Pretty much a regular
indeed it is
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Duncan and Robinson only number 1 picks to win a title with the team that drafted them in the last 30 drafts
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
Shaq won but with la
Glenn Robinson but with the spurs
LeBron but with Miami
Glenn Robinson but with the spurs
LeBron but with Miami
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
true but skewed. jordan was the third pick, which you can still move up to that slot from anywhere in the lottery. he won 6 ships, so 20% of those. and the spurs have won 5, so already you're at 11 of 30.
if you look at the team that drafted #1, in almost every instance they were at least a strong contender within a couple years, the bucks and maybe the wiz/tdot the only exceptions.
but yea tanking to a top pick doesn't guarantee future success
orangemonk
Creep - Dee oh double gee
interesting though as i'm looking, the last 3 #1 picks have been non-american, and ben simmons will almost certainly make it 4 in a row.
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Lareux
Guest
No, I don't...clearly.
It isn't 2 different discussions, you just keep moving the goalposts. The initial question was what you just asked. Having the chance to win the lottery is the other alternative to making the playoffs as an 8 seed and getting bounced w/i a week...it is not having the 13th, or 15th pick, which you keep saying. Again, the point is conceded that, if the GM knew their fate and that they would be picking 13th, they'd probably rather make the playoffs at that point, even if they get bounced w/i a week. There's no reason to keep bringing up a particular pick...it's the chance at winning the lottery (or even getting a top 3 pick) vs. being an 8 seed.
In actuality the entire conversation started because "playoff experience" was brought up, which is pretty much a mythical concept. An 8 seed getting swept is doing nothing in relation to helping them win in the future. More often than not (like in pretty much every case), teams start winning when they get better. They sign/draft better talent, and develop the talent they already have and their players get better. They don't win because they lost a series 2 years where they won 1 game or no games at all. Rosters change so frequently to begin with, keeping a team together for a few years running isn't even something that happens that often where this supposed "playoff experience" would start to see results.
hugh613
Pretty much a regular
You answered your own question divol, or have you forgotten how bad the Warriors were until they had the good fortune to draft Stephen Curry (7th), Klay Thompson (11th), Draymond Green (35th) and Harrison Barnes (7th)?
Other than Green, none of those players are still on the board if the Warriors had actively fought (and been content with) to get the 7th or 8th seed.
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Lareux
Guest
Right, they got better players and they started winning more...you don't say.
And every other team he mentioned (Lakers, Boston, Miami, Dallas) didn't have to go tank style like the Sixers because....wait for it....wait for it....they got better players and started winning. In those cases, the team did it via free agency, but none of those teams won a title because they got swept as an 8 seed a few years earlier.
guaranteeed
Pretty much a regular
ya I just thought it was interesting, the NBA is so different than other sports because of the small size of the rosters that 1 player makes more of an impact than in other sports (with the exception of QB in football)
so a player like Jordan/Duncan can set you up for 15-20 years, but the majority of time you tank and usually get an all star that gets you in the playoffs but no better than a few rounds
Lakers had to rebuild after Shaq...not completely but rebuilt...
Warriors rebuilt for decades, lol
Detroit after GHill..not a rebuild but they were losing in 1st round and whatnot
Now you made me count with my fingers to make sure Dream wasn't excluded, lol.
D
dudleysdad
Guest
yeah divol christ GS was irrelevant forever, what they had a quick run TMC 2nd rd playoff run in the late 80's, then a 1st rd exit with in 93 then nothing until this team
holy hell
the thing above is dallas had Dirk in his prime both finals runs, Miami (wade n shaq, then wade and lebron, Boston handed 3 hall of famers, lakers handed pau) Sixers have had all role players, last stud was AI. think about it
CASH
Pretty much a regular
man oh man is this spot on!!!
CASH
Pretty much a regular
You need to separate all 3 into their own category...
Player - wants to win every time that is his mentality - also for a bigger contract
GM - wants to build a championship team - picks, salary cap, current players - how does he get there...need 1 star to start to build around and hope to attract others or draft them...
coach (i added this) -- coaches want to win, some want to teach and understand that there is a plan in place and it will take some time, others just get retread or get put in bad positions or just suck
Owner- wants to be part of the billionaire boys club. - he will make his money- ego drives em - but the good ones, surround themselves with knowledgeable basketball people, sometimes these guys need to learn/ do stupid owner things -then get the right people in place..
CASH
Pretty much a regular
You are SO very very WRONG about this... go read a little, look at stats , previous win pct, what ever you have to.. but for the love of g-d please educate yourself on these things before you put it in digital...
just read all the other comments,, i guess everyone attacked this comment...
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