HawaiiGuy's Philly ML thread - and the CTG bookmaker's take...

[CollegeKingRex]

Hey fellas....

I am in my first year at a pretty decent-sized operation.

Needless to say, I am not happy about having to deal with shit like this (suspended games in the sixth inning after a run has been scored to tie the game before raining it out - first time in 104 years)....

The website of my company - and most others - clearly states the rules and thankfully, we are supposed to be covered from claims...

So here are the rules, Vegas-style and (99 percent of) offshore style as well.... [I even sent a pre-emptive e-mail to our customer service before clocking out, which I am doing now as I send this message] ....

The <st1>Tampa </st1><st1>Bay</st1> at <st1><st1:city w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:city></st1> <st1:city w:st="on">World Series</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">Ga</st1:state>me 5 has been suspended in the bottom of the sixth inning due to rain.
<o></o><o></o>
For betting purposes, as per website and <st1><st1:city w:st="on">Las Vegas</st1:city></st1> rules, the score reverts back to the last completed inning. Through five innings, the score was 2-1 in favor of <st1><st1:city w:st="on">Philadelphia.</st1:city></st1> Therefore, all bets on the side will be graded as winners for <st1><st1:city w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:city></st1>, with all bets on the totals and run-lines graded as ‘no action’. The game will resume at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time on Tuesday.
<o></o><o></o>
All bets on the ‘MLB Live Betting Line’ on both the side and the total (Sport Type 245) are ‘No action’ – this is a proposition wager and as per website rules, the game did not go at least 8.5 innings.

<o></o><o></o>
Other Propositions:<o></o><o></o>

Team to Score First
Will there be a score in the 1^st inning?
<o></o><o></o>First-5 innings.
Player to Record First Hit.
<o></o><o></o>Player to Score the First Run
<o></o><o></o>Player to Record the First RBI

ACTION


Player to Hit the First Home Run<o></o>

*there were no home runs hit but the game did not go 9 (or 8.5) innings...<o></o>
so no action....



Hope this helps fellas (I do try to play both sides of the counter with equal enthusiasm - I'm sure CRIS loves that, as I pissed off 4K to them on the Colts live betting tonight, hahaha)....

:shake:

 

[G-Man]

Same at The Greek.

I LOST my bet on Tampa tonight so I hope they win so I get another chance to recoup some. The umps should have called the game in the 4th. They knew that the weather was never going to let up until late tomorrow. Its like they were waiting for TB to have a shot at tying the game first.

 

[CapTwo]

:shake:

Thanks, CKR for clarifying....was definitely an anomaly.
We were talking about it in the in-game, very weird indeed....


Probably didnt bode too well for the shop, had to be a lot of rays-series backers chase money on philly ML tonight.

does this mean that books in the future will look to amend this rule and get back in line with where the MLB is?

suspended wagers carry over to when the game is completed.:shake:

 

[CollegeKingRex]

Cap2 - We won a peanut, actually. Lots of suckers here who like to only bet either a)dog or b) favorite RL - the RL bets get canceled and the dog bets lose.

for those of you who are offended by my use of the word "SUCKERS" - please refer back to earlier in the year when I had time to do baseball threads. I ONLY bet baseball that way... I was down a ton of money, almost five figures, through late June on posted stuff. People who know me know I don't need to toot my own horn, but I did get hot later in the season and end up about even for the year. But that's the way I book most stuff.

Unfortunately, I was in a meeting this afternoon and while I had the cheapest price.... I got passed on the way down and had -170 when some people were at -167 so I got some dog money +160 up my ass to basically make it an even game for us....

In FE's thread - I saw two very astute posts toward the end...

8 -
I guess a bright side for the Phils is if nothing happens tommorow and game 5 completion goes Wednesday, maybe Hamels can go in Game 7 Friday with almost full rest off a short outing tonight if needed.

Very good point. If weather becomes an issue, Hamels can go off maybe 3 days' rest at least for a few innings. Even with two days, he might be good to go for a bit. I believe his pitch count wasn't too bad tonight, even through 18 outs. That's a bridge we cross when we come to it, but good early observation....


I know it's been said before, but I think it was an embarrassment that MLB insisted on games starting at 8 ET. It's just ridiculous. I understand the rationale (ratings on the west coast) but when you have teams that are up against seasonal weather, it's in the interest of the players, fans at the park and fans at home to see the game start earlier. Also, the bs pageantry should be out of the way the first home game for each team, too much precious time is wasted on bull crap.

Personally, this has been on of the weakest WS's in awhile on the basis of the teams there and also because of the logistical mistakes MLB has made.

You forgot the umpires. But that's water under the bridge, right???

 

[Football_Expert]

That home plate ump was very erratic.

The FoxTrax strike zone is so small, if your pitch is in there, that has to be a strike, regardless of the ump. Every ump has his own strike zone, but it should build off the actual zone, a strike should always be a strike.

That ump missed at least 6 pitches and at key times.

Burrell should have struck out, which would have kept Victorino from the 2 run single.

Kasmir ended up coming out of the game because of several bad calls to his last few batters.

Hamels got a strike on a 3-0 count that was nowhere near the strike zone and the next pitch was an inning ending double play.

That ump needs to get downgraded and not be at any more World Series, ever.

If you mess up that many calls in 5.5 innings, you do not deserve to work any high profile games.

 

[CollegeKingRex]

FE - Each ump has his own strike zone.

Michael Murray has a book that is a MUST BUY if you bet baseball (especially totals) - for about $30 per year - it updates a lot of shit that will help you out, including the umpires.

It is available at the Gamblers' Book Shop in Vegas or at (www.gamblersbookshop.com) .... as are a lot of other helpful books.

Some are B.S. Some are the real deal. It's up to you to sift through and figure it out.


Bottom line - he basically tells you how these umps call games.

The crew, as a whole, has graded out to no better than a 'D' for the entire series. I sure hope it gets better for the last 2 1/2 innings or 2 1/2 games - whatever it ends up being.

Good night, all...


ps - The LIVE BETTING line I had on the game when I closed it was Philly -170/+140 Tampa.

The total has a lot of people arguing about what is right. I say 7 under 40 or so (over 7 +110) is right... because if each team scores one run, those bettors cannot lose.

A buddy who I really respect that deals a lot of live lines wasn't going to deal the total after it got tied until he saw the rain delay and the potential of bets that was there - he put up 6.5 under -125.

I thought it was too low. He might think it's right - and he might BE right.

Anyways - there's your guide for books that try to put up the line tomorrow.

Good luck!

:shake:

 

[wiseplayer]

How can Philly bettors possibly get paid out when they haven't won the game? Neither team was awarded a win but yet there is a winning and losing ticket? Sounds like there needs to be some sort of amendment to the rule.

 

[Clyde]

Wow, I was not expecting that at all with the wagers being graded. At worst I thought it would be "No Action".. I can see if they started the game over but it's being continued tonight. It's kinda of like a VERY VERY long rain delay..

Kind of bullshit since no winner has been decided.

 

[CHAMPBASI]

Great Post Rex...thanks for giving us some insight as to your side of the counter.

On a side not, how would you grade this prop?

Will Hamels be the winning pitcher in the game? I added it to my bets b/c I was getting Hamels at -110 and he goes far into a game so figured a nice way to reduce the juice.

On one hand, he pitched the necessary five innings and since it was 2-1 in fifth inning, he was the winning pitcher but at the same time can you have a winning pitcher be declared on a game not finished (you can have a ML winner so little precedence there???)

Not sure if your place offered this wager but how would you grade it?

 

[Dollaz]

Luckily for me, I had TB and the local carried over the game till tonight. Playing with house money.

 

[Hawaiiguy]

thanks rex, good stuff

 

[cashflowmatters]

How can Philly bettors possibly get paid out when they haven't won the game? Neither team was awarded a win but yet there is a winning and losing ticket? Sounds like there needs to be some sort of amendment to the rule.

It is a horrible rule, before choosing a Book you should always read the rules. I would never do mlb business with any Book that ruled any mlb suspened game that has not gone 8.5 as live action, all plays in this game should be cancelled!! For the rocord I had no action in the game.

 

[RetroVK]

It is a horrible rule, before choosing a Book you should always read the rules. I would never do mlb business with any Book that ruled any mlb suspened game that has not gone 8.5 as live action, all plays in this game should be cancelled!! For the rocord I had no action in the game.

problem is finding a legitimate book that does it another way ,... i dont know of one. EVERY book in vegas grades games this way and while i certainly don't know all of the offshore rules , i dont know of a single book that grades these bets differently. shrug.

 

[cashflowmatters]

problem is finding a legitimate book that does it another way ,... i dont know of one. EVERY book in vegas grades games this way and while i certainly don't know all of the offshore rules , i dont know of a single book that grades these bets differently. shrug.

They are out there, ya just have to shop. How did 5 Dimes grade the game? How did Bookmaker grade it?

 

[Santacapper]

They are out there, ya just have to shop. How did 5 Dimes grade the game? How did Bookmaker grade it?

5dimes

Baseball games are considered official after 5 innings of play (4½ if the home team is winning). If a game is called or suspended after 5 innings, the winner is determined by the score after the last full inning of play - unless the home team scores to tie or takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning. The winner is then determined by the score at the time the game is called. When betting on baseball totals or run-lines, the game must go 9 innings (8½ if the home team is winning).
First 5 inning lines are graded at the end of the 5th inning. All 5-inning wagers have action at that time, regardless whether the game is completed. The following propositions have action at the time they occur, regardless whether the game is completed or official: 1st 5 inning wagers, team to score first, 1st inning wagers or any wager involving a team or player to achieve an outcome first. The following propositions will be graded NO ACTION if a game does not go 8½-9 innings and is an official completed game on that day: team statistical match-ups, player match-ups (including total bases), team total runs, H-R-E wagers, or any wager involving an over/under format.
Both players must START for action in total base wagering. Single=1 point, Double=2 points, Triple=3 points, HR=4 points, (Walks & Stolen Bases do not count). Player with the most points in the game is the winner.
Regular season series wagers have action as long as a minimum of two games are completed. Only the first three games of any series count for wagering purposes. Once a team wins two games in a series, the series will be graded at that time.
Pitcher strikeout props are for strikeouts thrown only unless otherwise noted.
Any baseball, softball, or little league game ending early as a result of a mercy rule will have action on all wagers (unless otherwise noted).
The Baseball Grand Salami has no action if any game is rained out or final in less than 8½ innings.
NCAA baseball, NCAA softball, and youth league tournament games have action regardless of their starting/completion date.​

 

[Santacapper]

Bookmaker

Winners and Losers are official after 5 innings of play unless the home team is leading after 4½ innings. If a game is called or suspended, the score after the last full inning determines the winner. If the home team scores to tie - or takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning and the inning is not completed, the score at the time the game is called determines the winner. Monies will be refunded if the home team ties the game and it is then suspended. Events will not carry over to the following day (unless otherwise specified). BookMaker does not recognize suspended games, protests, overturned decisions, etc. for betting purposes.
When betting on the total runs (over/under) the game must go 9 innings (8½ if the home team is ahead) to have action. Wagers on total runs will be refunded if a pitcher change occurs prior to both listed pitchers throwing at least one pitch. Rules for the run line wagers are the same as those for baseball totals.
Game must be played on scheduled date and site

 

[cashflowmatters]

Bookmaker

Winners and Losers are official after 5 innings of play unless the home team is leading after 4½ innings. If a game is called or suspended, the score after the last full inning determines the winner. If the home team scores to tie - or takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning and the inning is not completed, the score at the time the game is called determines the winner. Monies will be refunded if the home team ties the game and it is then suspended. Events will not carry over to the following day (unless otherwise specified). BookMaker does not recognize suspended games, protests, overturned decisions, etc. for betting purposes.
When betting on the total runs (over/under) the game must go 9 innings (8½ if the home team is ahead) to have action. Wagers on total runs will be refunded if a pitcher change occurs prior to both listed pitchers throwing at least one pitch. Rules for the run line wagers are the same as those for baseball totals.
Game must be played on scheduled date and site

I fortunate to have 2 different Books that grade all suspened games as NO ACTION because imo that is the way is should be & would not bet mlb under any other circumstances. Again for the record had no plays in last nights game. Proof of Books grading ml plays as live action being B/S is the simple fact that you can bet on the same game starting in the bottom of the 6th . Rules are rules I know, but be assured I would not bet mlb with a Book that graded suspened games as live action on ml's :cheers:

 

[CollegeKingRex]

Cash - I'd say you are fortunate to have ONE book that grades that game 'no action', let alone two.

Not to be an ass, but your opinion is really not relevant. This is the way books have graded suspended games for years - it's really the only fair way to settle wagers, and like VK said, that's just the way it is.

I only know of one place down here that graded it 'no action' and one more I believe (credit only package to appease Philly agents) is letting the bet stand until the game gets completed.

Most places, mine included, is now putting up a 'live line' on the baseball game that will have action no matter when it concludes (it's now supposed to continue on Wednesday).

Champ - Your prop should be graded 'no action' - for reasons I explained earlier.

 

[cashflowmatters]

Cash - I'd say you are fortunate to have ONE book that grades that game 'no action', let alone two.

Not to be an ass, but your opinion is really not relevant. This is the way books have graded suspended games for years - it's really the only fair way to settle wagers, and like VK said, that's just the way it is.

I only know of one place down here that graded it 'no action' and one more I believe (credit only package to appease Philly agents) is letting the bet stand until the game gets completed.

Most places, mine included, is now putting up a 'live line' on the baseball game that will have action no matter when it concludes (it's now supposed to continue on Wednesday).

Champ - Your prop should be graded 'no action' - for reasons I explained earlier.

Rex: Regardless if you think my opinion is relavant or not is ok with me, but I am still entitled to it & because many various Books graded the game as live ML action does not make the rule fair or right. Rules are posted so no one should complain after the fact, I just choose to do mlb business where suspended games are NO ACTION, it eliminates controversy!

 

[CollegeKingRex]

As I said, I don't make the rules. I don't necessarily agree with the rules... but I do know that once they announced that game suspended I threw my Phil Steele's (yes I was checking college football injuries) across the room.... cause I knew of all the B.S. claims that were going to come in because of it.


:shake:

 

[ynnhoj316]

Rex,
any plays for tonight ?

 

[Capt. Slap]

Lol my friends bookie is still giving me the original +170

 

[CollegeKingRex]

no plays tonight ynn.

I wanted to take 7.5 with the Thundering Turd but it's not out there.

 

[Sarcastic Sword]

I cant believe the books are offering action on the completion of game 5...One offshore has TB +149..Word has it that David Price will be pitching for TB - thats a tough task in the cold with all of the lefties that Philly has - I might bite on the Rays at this price...

 

[Smokedawg]

What happens in Philly pays in Vegas.

In reality, the Tampa Bay Rays and Philadelphia Phillies are tied 2-2 after rain halted Game 5 of the World Series after 5½ innings.

But in the world of Las Vegas sports books, the Phillies won 2-1 -- and side bets on the Phillies have to be paid out.

Confused? There's a simple explanation.

According to Nevada Gaming Commission rules the final score of an official baseball game, for betting purposes, is determined by reverting to the last completed inning, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported. And the Phillies led Game 5, 2-1, after five completed innings.

Wagers on totals and run-line bets are being refunded because gaming rules stipulate that at least 8½ innings must be played for those bets to pay off, according to the report.

"We're just following the regular baseball rules. This is a very common rule," Las Vegas Hilton sports book director Jay Kornegay said, according to the report. "We can't make exceptions.

"There was no special disclaimer for World Series games, or any playoff games for that matter, that your bet would continue if the game was suspended,"
Kornegay said, according to the report. "It's one of those unfortunate, misunderstood rules of baseball betting."

Jeff Sherman, assistant manager of the Hilton sports book, told Bloomberg that several regular-season baseball games were affected by the same rule. But none were as high profile as the World Series game.

"It hasn't had as much notoriety as its getting now because it's a rare instance," he told Bloomberg. "When we had this during the regular season, we get people who say, 'Oh, I didn't know that.' Now it's just on a lot larger scale."

How about double or nothing?

"I'm sure there are disgruntled bettors because people see it as a 2-2 game and they're stuck with a losing ticket,'' said John Harper, senior oddsmaker at Las Vegas Sports Consultants, in an interview witih Bloomberg. "It's a break for someone who had a Philly ticket.''

Kornegay said the Hilton would post a prop bet Wednesday on the conclusion of Game 5, the Review-Journal reported. He said the Phillies, who have an advantage because they still get to bat in the bottom of the sixth, will be money-line favorites and the wagers will be paid "whenever the game is finished."

According to morning lines in Las Vegas, Philadelphia is listed at -160 and Tampa Bay at +150. If the Rays win, a $1 bet will pay out $1.50; to win on the Phillies, a $1.60 bet wins $1.

Despite the Nevada gaming rules, some sports books, such as MGM/Mirage Properties, did not consider the Phillies the winner on Monday night and will wait until Game 5 is concluded to pay winners.