Group stage game 3, what to play for?

GWarner27

Meatballin' in Celtics Stadium
JP mentioned a thread like this and I'm on a three-hour train with nothing to do besides figuring out how Charlie Culberson gets thrown out at home with no outs in the 9th trailing 6-4, so lets figure out what each team has to play for now that I believe the 2nd round of games are done

:shake:
 
Worth reposting this -

The ranking of teams in each group is based on:


  1. Points in all group matches, with three points awarded for a win, one point for a draw and none for a loss.
  2. Goal difference in all group matches
  3. Goals scored in all group matches
  4. Points in matches between tied teams
  5. Goal difference in matches between tied teams
  6. Goals scored in matches between tied teams
  7. Drawing of lots
 
If Portugal beats Ghana 2 nil and we lose to Germans 3 nil there would be a "lottery drawing" to determine who goes through USA or Portugal.
 
US beat Germany. The U.S. advances in first place.

US draw with Germany. The U.S. and Germany tie atop the group with five points, but Germany gets the first position on the basis of goal differential. The U.S. advances as the second team from Group G instead.

US lose to Germany. This outcome depends on the result of the Portugal-Ghana match:


  • If Portugal beats Ghana, the U.S. and Portugal tie for second. The U.S. is favored (although not guaranteed) to advance based on goal differential because Portugal’s 4-0 loss against Germany could come back to haunt it.
  • If Ghana beats Portugal, the U.S. and Ghana tie for second. This is a more dangerous case for the United States. For example, if it loses to Germany by more than one goal, or Ghana beats Portugal by more than one goal, the U.S. will lose the tiebreaker to Ghana. It also doesn’t help the U.S. that Ghana’s match against Germany was high-scoring because FIFA’s second tiebreaker is based on the number of goals scored. For example, if the U.S. draws Portugal 1-1, loses to Germany 1-0, and Ghana beats Portugal 1-0, then the U.S. and Ghana will have even goal differentials. But Ghana will have four goals scored to the Americans’ three and Ghana will advance.
  • If Portugal draws Ghana, the U.S. finishes in sole possession of second place and advances.
 
Group H
(group points bolded, Goal Difference follows)

Algeria 1st, Belgium 2nd
If Sth Korea beats Belgium by any amount & Algeria beats Russia by any amount, then Algeria wins the group & Belgium finishes runner-up (Alg: 6 +2 minimum, Bel: 6 +1 maximum, SK: 4 -1 minimum, Rus: 1 -2 maximum).

Belgium 1st, Algeria or Russia 2nd

If Belgium draws or wins then they win the group, and the runner-up is decided by the Algerian/Russian result. Russia just has to win, margin is irrelevant. Algeria only has to draw, and they're through.

Belgium 1st, Sth Korea 2nd
Sth Korea getting through is so involved it isn't funny: irrespective of whether Algeria & Russia drew or Russia won (an Algerian win kills Sth Korean hopes dead), the Asians would have to beat Belgium by a minimum of 2 goals. For all intents & purposes, Sth Korea's WC hopes died today. Every atheist on the planet should convert to believing in some God existing if they make it, that's how big a miracle it would be.
 
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Utterly ridiculous that Ghana could advance if tied with the USA based on GD despite losing to them.


I agree, but can you imagine how dreadful some of these games would be if H2H was first tiebreaker?

It may not be better for US fans, but overall it is better for the sport.
 
Netherlands will gladly take the draw, win the group and avoid Brazil.

I know Brazil aren't blowing the doors off anyone, but I'd still like to avoid them as long as I can .

Mexico has to win, I believe. They would lose to Croatia on GD...


Spain/Australia nice exhibition match, Brazil should throttle Cameroon, but who knows
 
Group F

Argentina 1st/2nd, Nigeria 2nd/1st
If Argentina & Nigeria draw, Argies win the group & Nigeria gets runner-up. If Nigeria beats the Argies, those placements are reversed.

Argentina 1st, Iran or Nigeria 2nd
If Argentina beat Nigeria, then it gets complicated if Iran wins. If Iran beat B&H by 1-0 while Nigeria lost 1-0, then both teams would be tied on the criteria for separating teams all the way down to #7, which would be the drawing of lots. The moment Iran beats B&H by at least 2 goals, Nigeria is screwed if they fail to manage at least a draw off Argentina, and Nigeria is similarly screwed if Iran only wins by 1-0 but they lose by 2 goals or more to Argentina. Bottom line, if Nigeria loses then Iran is probably in the box seat given B&H is playing for nothing.
 
Netherlands will gladly take the draw, win the group and avoid Brazil.

I know Brazil aren't blowing the doors off anyone, but I'd still like to avoid them as long as I can .

Mexico has to win, I believe. They would lose to Croatia on GD...


Spain/Australia nice exhibition match, Brazil should throttle Cameroon, but who knows

Cameroon were a mess before they turned up - wanting to strike, threaten to boycott, refusing to accept the flag from the Prime Minister. Now that they are out and fought with each other on the pitch in the last game then I think we will see Brazil putting 5+ on them. Similar to France 4 years ago, but a lesser quality team
 
BC...

Are you able to pull a stat of how many teams have advanced on 4 pts since this expaned to 32 in 1998?
 
Group E

France not finishing 1st
France would have to lose by 4 goals to Ecuador to finish runner-up to them (if they lost by 3 goals, they'd be tied on GD but would still have scored 2 more total goals, thereby winning the group via the 3rd criteria), or lose to Ecuador by 1-0 and see the Swiss beat Honduras by 8 goals to finish runner-up to them (France lost by 2-0, then Swiss only need win by 7...). That's how hard it is for France to finish runner-up. Now imagine what the calculations look like for them to miss out on qualifying altogether (given the fact that 3 teams can all finish on 6 points & goals count before points in matches between teams do). Forget it.

Ecuador or Switzerland 2nd
What makes this interesting is that while the Swiss are in the box seat to qualify based on their last opponent being the easier one on paper, their GD (-2) is inferior to Ecuador's (0). So the Swiss can't be content with settling for a draw (at least until they know from their spies that France actually leads by more than 1 goal), because they'll know a draw suits France fine and their drawing while Ecuador draws would see Ecuador go through on the better GD. So the Swiss from the outset in principle have to go for the win, and ideally would like to win by at least 3 or 4 goals (which would cover their asses in case Ecuador managed to beat France by what you'd expect to be a maximum of 1 or 2 goals).
 
Netherlands will gladly take the draw, win the group and avoid Brazil.

I know Brazil aren't blowing the doors off anyone, but I'd still like to avoid them as long as I can .

Mexico has to win, I believe. They would lose to Croatia on GD

If Mexico draws they are a point ahead of Croatia so they just need to avoid a defeat. Considering they haven't allowed a goal yet, I think they may be comfortable to play for 0-0 (or as comfortable as you can possibly be) and counter.

I think in-game under would be worth a shot if Mexico took a 1-0 lead, though Croatia would be doing everything they can to score twice. I doubt you'd see 2.5 unless it was a really early goal, but 2 is probably worth a stab considering 1-1 they go through with the aforementioned point structure
 
oh your right about Mexico , GW totally forgot, duh

Mexico will be happy to sit back in that one, and they have the players to play off the counter
 
Group A:
Brasil - Qualified
Mexico - 3pts +1 GD Need to win to qualify
Croatia - 3pts +4 GD Need a draw to qualify
Cameroon - Eliminated

Group B:
Netherlands - Qualified playing for top spot
Chile - Qualified playing for top spot
Australia - Eliminated
Spain - Eliminated

Group C
Colombia - Qualified top spot
Ivory Coast - Need draw vs Greece to qualify
Japan - Need Win vs Colombia
Greece - Need big win vs IC to qualify

Group D
Costa Rica - Won Group
Italy - Draw vs Uruguay to Qualify
Uruguay - Win vs Italy to Qualify
England - Eliminated

Group E
France - Technically have not qualified but have massive GD too difficult to over take top spot
Ecuador - Draw and Swiss Draw or Loss and they are through
Switzerland - Win and in, Draw and a 2 goal Ecuador loss they are through
Honduras - Win and Ecuador loss by a lot they are through

Group F
Argentina - Need draw to clinch top spot
Nigeria - need draw to qualify
Iran - Win and Nigeria loss by 2 they qualify
Bosnia - Eliminated

Group G
Germany - Draw vs US, they are through a Win seals top spot
US - Draw vs Germany they are through
Ghana - Win and US lose by 2 goals or more are through
Portugal - Win by 5 + goals and US lose by 2 goals they are through

Group H
Belgium - Qualified, a draw seals top spot loss will bump them down to 2nd
Algeria - Draw to qualify
Russia - Win against Algeria they are through
South Korea - big win against Belgium and help from others they are through.
 
Group C

Colombia not finishing 1st

Colombia would have to lose to Japan & Ivory Coast beat Greece for Colombia to be in danger of not winning the group. But those 2 results alone wouldn't knock them off, given their GD sits at +4 to IC's 0 & their total goals scored sit at 5 to IC's 3. IC would need to at a minimum win 2-0 & Col lose 3-0 (or win 3-1 & lose Col 2-0) for IC to win the group, because IC is doomed if the 4th criteria comes into play to decide matters (their HtH result, which Col won 2-1). Japan is not beating Colombia by those scorelines, so all this is completely moot.

Ivory Coast or Greece finishing 2nd

If Greece wins, Ripley's believe it or not is they will finish 2nd. A team that is goalless after 2 games can still qualify. IC needs only a draw and they'll finish 2nd. The dour Greeks have no choice but to attack, but if they attack too early/willy nilly then the counter-attacking goal that will likely kill their chances will come soon enough. IMO Greece will perceive their best chance to advance here is a 1-0 scoreline. I don't believe they'll sell out defense for attack until the final 20 arrives. Til then they'll attack, but never at the cost of cheating on defense. Don't see them thinking they can win 2-1, and it should show in their tactics. IC knows they can park the bus and live on the counter. Greece has played 3 goalless halves out of 4, IC 2 goalless halves out of 4. This sets up for a dour 0-1 goal first half (unless IC is simply that superior to Greece in actual onfield play, but their respective efforts against the average Japanese don't suggest such a gulf between the 2 teams).

Japan finishing 2nd
Much like their Sth Korean counter-parts, atheists should convert to some religious denomination if Japan gets the level of miracle it needs to qualify. That being beating Colombia by any margin if Greece beats IC (but the latter not by some big margin), or beating Colombia by at least 2 goals if Greece draws with IC. Japan expecting to beat a Colombian team not yet set on 1st place as well as needing a team that has yet to score to win/draw with the group's current 2nd best team? They had a better chance of winning WW2 circa June 1945.
 
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Group C
Colombia - Qualified top spot
Ivory Coast - Need draw vs Greece to qualify
Japan - Need Win vs Colombia
Greece - Need big win vs IC to qualify

Why has Colombia decided 1st already? They have 6 pts, IC has 3 pts. They can be tied, then it goes to GD. They're like France. 1st place is basically wrapped up, but not formerly.
 
OK, so let's do this one at a time ...

Groups A & B

The winner of Group A gets the runner up in Group B

Brazil is going to win Group A which means they'll play the runner up in Group B.

In Group B you have:
Netherlands vs. Chile - If Chile wins, they win the group.

The question is, do the Dutch want to win the group and face Brazil or do they want to tank tomorrow and face Mexico or Croatia? Man, I've gotta say, if I'm the Dutch I'm real tempted to let Chile slide through here. As was said above, put off Brazil for a game or two. Personally I think it will be Mexico, who the Dutch should handle. But no matter which it is, wouldn't you rather play Mexico or Croatia than Brazil?

In Group B, obviously this Mexico/Croatia game has to be played straight up. Mexico can fall back, try to keep another clean sheet and skate through, but you're looking at a Croatia side that put up a big number against Cameroon.

Groups C & D

Right now, you have to figure Columbia wins group C. Yes, the Ivory Coast could catch them if Columbia loses and the IC puts it on Greece, but really I think you have to figure Columbia as winning the group.

The number may not be right, but I think you have to look at the IC vs. Greece. The Ivory Coast have scored in every game, they may not be playing great, but they're not playing poorly and Greece is essentially out. They could play spoiler, but they're not up against a team they're going to beat 1-0. They're going to have to score more than 1 to win, I'm not sure they can do that.

Japan needs to not only win, but win big in case the IC draws with Greece. Pretty much the moment the IC scores against Greece, Japan is done. But for Japan you'd think they have to open it way up. Which almost certainly won't end well for them, but what choice to they have. Over here?

In Group D, the Ticos have basically won the group. You could ask if they want to face Columbia, but they'd not only have to mail it in, but get help to come in second. Tough to see that as England have looked like shit. But PR seems to be making some changes. Wide open? England plays for pride and finds the back of the net a couple of times against PR's B team?

Italy/Uruguay has to be played straight up. Honestly, as an Italy fan, this game worries me too. PR worried me, so does this one. URU was the better side against England and could really do the same things they did to them against Italy. I also may not be near a TV or the Internet on Tuesday AM and may miss this game. Which may lead to me having a nervous breakdown. Just a heads up.

Groups E & F

Basically France is looking at playing Argentina unless I'm way off here.

I'm not sure what France has to play for. Not that they won't try, I'm just not sure why they'd try hard.

Also, tell me I'm wrong, but am I the only one who thinks the Swiss can pretty much name their number against Honduras?

I like the draw here in Argy/Nigeria a lot. I mean, Argy may win without trying too hard, but I have a feeling both teams would be just fine to get through this game without injury. 0-0, 1-1 feels really, really right to me here.

Bosnia/Iran? Talk about two disappointed, deflated teams. They have to be, no? No clue which way this one goes, thoughts appreciated, but I'll likely stay away.

Groups G & H

There are so many sort of side stories to this Germany/US matchup it's not even funny. But on the pitch, if Germany wants to, it's hard to see how they don't win. It probably doesn't really matter to them whether they face Belgium or Algeria. I mean, they'd probably like Algeria, but my guess is they don't care. The question is, do they care enough to try in this game or do they just want to do enough to keep everybody healthy, maybe scratch out a 1-1 draw and move along? Something tells me this argument will have its own thread.

What I personally believe, though, is that Ghana has a real chance to make a statement here. I don't have any faith in Portugal. They'd not only need to win, but win in staggering fashion and still get help to get through. I just don't see it. But that could be me.

In Group H, I have this weird feeling Algeria beats Russia for fun. Or that the Russians tank it so they can wager against their own team. Who knows, but I think that team is on the bus already.

And South Korea have never looked very impressive to me in this WC. I feel like Belgium may not even have to try hard to win this game relatively easily.

So, with all that said, it looks like your likely knockout stage matchups would be:

Brazil v. Chile/Dutch
Chile/Dutch v. Mexico/Croatia

Columbia v. Italy/Uruguay
Costa Rica v. Ivory Coast

France v. Nigeria
Argentina v. Ecuador (wow)

Germany v. Algeria
Belgium v. US/Ghana

I know there weren't a ton of iron-clad calls in this post, just trying to get everything out of my big ol' red head down on paper. Love to hear your thoughts.
 
Joe the Dutch should want to win their group to avoid Brazil, I'm sure you just got tangented there
 
Also, you know what I forgot? I forgot Australia vs. Spain tomorrow.

Seems dumb because both teams are going home, but I have a feeling Aussie wins that game outright. Who cares if Spain is depleted or whatever, the ability for Aussie—who's not playing that bad, by the way—to say they beat the defending WC Champs in the WC? Huge.
 
Missing Cahill a big deal, hard to see how Aussies score although Spain may just be looking to get home
 
If Mexico draws they are a point ahead of Croatia so they just need to avoid a defeat. Considering they haven't allowed a goal yet, I think they may be comfortable to play for 0-0 (or as comfortable as you can possibly be) and counter.

I think in-game under would be worth a shot if Mexico took a 1-0 lead, though Croatia would be doing everything they can to score twice. I doubt you'd see 2.5 unless it was a really early goal, but 2 is probably worth a stab considering 1-1 they go through with the aforementioned point structure



why not just play the under 2.5 -130 right now?
 
Group C seems to have some possibilities tomorrow.

I picked Greece to advance as a major upset pick in my pools, still could happen if they win and Colombia wins or draws. My fear is that the counter-attacking style can't be the way Greece does it tomorrow knowing they need to win. This makes me think guys will be forward and CIV will have opportunities that they may not mess up this time (though I'm not sure you can ever be certain an African side will put the ball in the net). The creativity with Yaya seems to be there, but drogba is old and who else do they have?? I guess I like Greece and over, however my rooting interest may be pushing the side and I'm not sure you can ever back a Greece over. Best play may be a 2H under if Greece someone took a 1-0 lead into the break, though GD could mess that up

On the other game, Colombia looks like they have the offense to compete, though they've looked downright scary holding teams off as CIV made it very interesting and even Greece blew some opportunities. Japan seems to have some creativity with Honda and Kagawa, their back line has been questioned throughout and they need to come back with GD so maybe that's worth an over look? 2.5 seems reasonable, unless we're expecting COL to sit a bunch of regulars???
 
I'm looking hard at this card tomorrow and the truth is, I just can't bet it. Not really.

What I want to bet is:
England to score
IC at a PK
Italy to score

I'm really confident England get at least one tomorrow. I'd get into that total, but 1-1 feels like a really likely final.

I like the IC to win tomorrow. I can't get around it. But I don't want to lay .25, I just want 'em at a flat PK in case they draw 1-1. Can't get it at a good price so there's that.

Really, none of the prices on those are good. So I'm just going to lay off. Probably for the best, I know I won't see the early games, and may not see much of the late games either.
 
Sometimes its helpful in stage 3 of group play to identify teams that need to score (whether because they have to win, win and make up gd, or just keep pace with another team on goals scored.) Of course the market factors this in, its not a surprise but where you can find the edge is when the team changes the line-up to such a degree that the market can't keep up. Adding a third dedicated striker for example. Will a team like Russia put three up front no holds barred? What about Japan, is there a scenario where they don't go all out for goals?
 
Columbia wins group with a draw....not a lot of motivation there IMO.

I love Costa Rica today.....Ticas are just better than England. Also a 2 nil loss by CR and they could lose top spot.
 
not picking on you adam but it's hilarious hearing that considering no one gave CRC a chance (including one of the sharper minds on the forum playing them u1.5 points)
 
Agree I didn't think they were shit coming in......concacaf making a statement especially if USA can advance (please Jesus)
 
well i should've trusted my COL over thoughts and played it before the price got away from me, tough loss on my CIV/GRE u1.25 2H even if it helped me majorly in my pools
 
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