Food Stamp tOsU vs UM.....Line Thread ONLY!

B.A.R.

CTG Partner
Staff member
okay...me and AHunt hit +7-115 on the pinny real early lines. Same line was avail 8 days later at -102

Line is about 6.5 now most places.


Heres what I would like to center discussion on.

LY...TheOSU opened 2...thats what I consider true line

This year it opens 7


Usually the difference is 6 or 7 home/away(especially in baskets with more than one matchup)


Now, I think the Buckeye squad last year was better than this squad. Although Troy, Teddy and Gonzo are improved...this offense combined with defsne was a better team last year..

Michigan is doubly improved this year. No injuries, better defense, better team speed, new coordinators and Manningham-Arrington stepping up.

So..why only a 5 point swing in line?

Michigan got better. Overall..tOSU got worse..



Hmmmm



Now you understand the thinking in value for UM +7


:smiley_acbe:
 
I agree and disagree...

Ohio State opened -2 @ Mich closed at -3...the home field switch is worth at least 7 points probably 8 in this case..

So -2 will become -10...Ohio State I dont think is much worse then last year...maybe 1 pt worse....

Michigan has improved in some manners but as a team overall strength has probably only improved slightily. Good defenses like Iowa and Wisky gave Michigan games in Ann Arbor. So the UM offense now on teh road versus a good defense still has to be producing a question mark in ones mind...

IF Ohio State has lost some and UM gained some its probably at best 1 pt each way. Really I think for the most part Ohio State has improved as the season progressed basically negatating what UM has improved.

Anyway I had this @ -8....

So I think 6.5 is soft.....gonna be a close game throughout IMO with a late lead extended say 3 to 10 pts deep in the 4th Q...
 
Seriously..UM much better than last year..tSOU same or just slightly worse...

Ohioans and others may debate my proclamation that Bucks are worse..sorry..I use defense as a huge barometer. Anyone that watched Buckeyes last few games last year knows they could play some offense.

Based on my criteria...

last year was a 2..so this year should be an 8.5 if both teams return intact

Michigan betre...+1.5.///tosu worse..-1.5

Now at 5.5

add in double revenege and a top 10 team with top rushing defsnes and great rushing offense..line should be 4 to 4.5

Hence..VALUE at 7
 
I think the arguement of improvement and decline is being used to look at indivual ability rather how these teams play as units.
 
Nut..look deper into UM...they have only showcased offsne once..ND..its part of season long plan.

Last years tOSU defense was GREAT. This years is good(if it was Iowa or wisky)..but not up to tOSU standards. BIG difference there.

The new UM coordinators make a HUGE difference. HUGE. State are not relevant here. UM has been playing vanilla all year in prep for this game.
 
SportsNut said:
I think the arguement of improvement and decline is being used to look at indivual ability rather how these teams play as units.

Ohio St hasn't played a great offense yet. Not too many good ones either.

Texas was not a good offense at time with young QB and no direction really.

MSU was a good offense. Tghen ND killed their hopes. Ringer was lost against Illy and their things went. Plus Cocaine Drew was shavin games.

Iowa was in catch up mode from beginning. That can make a defense look good real quick.

That concludes any offense the Buckeyes have faced
 
I'm not one for lines and whatnot like some of you guys are, but I agree with BAR, UM has all the value here at 7....OSu's defense has lived off turnovers this year against shit offenses, UM is a well-coached team that does not turn the ball over unless Grady is in there. If anyone think this defense is better than last years, you need to rethink that.

This UM front four is the best OSU will see all year, if Smith doesn't have time to throw, what does it matter who they throw it to?

HF is huge but it was for UM last year and look what happened.

Also remember Carr cherishes the underdog role and has been drilling into players heads all year...he has used the movie Cinderella as a theme all year..these guys have a chip on a shoulder and in a rivalry with all this emotion give me 7.
 
Bar ~

Your the UM expert. I understand that stance but it still doesnt have to do with how lines are set. Yes, the Wolverines could be sleeping giants and maybe they prove to be so. However where is the resume? ND defense is a joke comparted to UT's isnt it?? Fact is they lost the last 2 meetings to Ohio State and choked at home in the 4th Q. So they couldnt outscore certain Big Ten teams on talent or strength alone? Ohio State sure did..Vanilla offense doesnt mean you cannot just beat someone on talent alone....

I agree Ohio States defense was great last year . They had major losses we all thought that would be there achilles heel this year. Clearly that hasnt happened though. So there really isnt much reason to believe or say that Ohio State's defense has lost much if anything from last season as a unit not indivual talent wise.

The defense allowed 12 in the 1st game at home to NI which included a 4th Q TD when the game was a laugher and they allowed 17 @ Ohio State . Otherwise no team topped 10 poinst all season....Where's the slippage?? UM only held 3 teams to less then 10 points this season.

Just cause UM has prepared and plotted for this game doesnt mean all goes according to plan gameday.

Trust me I have no desire to argue Michigan football with you its a conversation I will only be embarrassed in.

I want to talk validity of the line factored with Joe Publics stance on this game. Show me the guy saying ...Wow...Ohio State is so cheap @ -6.5 ....arent many are there?

If Ohio State is -2 last year on the road then they should be -10 athome this year ....tweak abit cause there are not significant differences IMO and you get IMO -8 maybe even -7 ...you know as do I and thast why you played 7 this line will go down...so when you see -6 on gameday its going to make Ohio State the value side.

If the line crossed 7 and went to 8 /8.5 I owuld say the opposite. To me this is the advantage of understanding where a line should be..
 
Honestly..UT and ND defense is same to me. Kst can vouch for what a joke UT defense is. So can TT.
 
B.A.R. said:
Ohio St hasn't played a great offense yet. Not too many good ones either.

Texas was not a good offense at time with young QB and no direction really.

MSU was a good offense. Tghen ND killed their hopes. Ringer was lost against Illy and their things went. Plus Cocaine Drew was shavin games.

Iowa was in catch up mode from beginning. That can make a defense look good real quick.

That concludes any offense the Buckeyes have faced

Agree but again who Michigan played? Iowa late in the year when it was clear there offense was a disaster this season, Wisconsin athome before they took off(and what happened in that game?) , or ND??

I think going to UT even early in the year looking back at the season is more impressive then winning @ ND. The Fightin Irish were built up over last season. UCLA almost won in there house....yeah MCoy was young and it was alot to expect him to win but 28-7...
 
B.A.R. said:
Honestly..UT and ND defense is same to me. Kst can vouch for what a joke UT defense is. So can TT.

First UT played @ Kansas State and well all know college teams play better at home...

Your insane(said with a smile) if the UT defense is the same as ND's...

You and Hunt are UM fans I honestly could care less who wins or who is better or who is right...

I know that 7 doesnt present value for UM from a pointspread angle...only +7.5 do you begin to see any value for UM....

trust me here...

Maybe I am wrong and there is some closet OSU money that pushed this game to 7.5 or better then I say youhave your value. As of now I dont foresee that happening I see -6 here
 
The line for a UM-tOSU game should never be more than 3 either way honestly. Doesn't matter situation....you take dog getting more than 3. Thats just my opinion but I bet over time it holds up pretty well.


tOSU has played no one since UT. They are kind of a unknown here. I could care less what their defense did against BGSU or IU or Illy or whoever. Honestly, Michigan is best run defense in country..has best defensive oplayer in Wiidley and a solid secondary. Have they been tested in awhile? No.

Should be a great game.

Passing: tosu
Running: UM
Recievers: Push
TE's: UM
UM Oline vs tOSU dline: UM
tOSU Oline vs UM FD-line: UM
Coaching: Head..osu..coordinators..UM
Venue: tOSU..Carr has won here a few times tho
Special Teans: slight to UM


Michiagn wins trenches...runs well..and has best defense in America

I'll take a touchdown all day.

Goonight..great disc fellas
 
SportsNut said:
First UT played @ Kansas State and well all know college teams play better at home...

Your insane(said with a smile) if the UT defense is the same as ND's...

You and Hunt are UM fans I honestly could care less who wins or who is better or who is right...

I know that 7 doesnt present value for UM from a pointspread angle...only +7.5 do you begin to see any value for UM....

trust me here...

Maybe I am wrong and there is some closet OSU money that pushed this game to 7.5 or better then I say youhave your value. As of now I dont foresee that happening I see -6 here


First..joke about defense compared

I opened this line 3. So 7 is great value to me. My lines are more accurate for me. We have ben wishing(and thinking no way) all year we would get 7. Its a joke. I think UM is better team and can steal one here. Overall, all around they are better team. Just watch Saturday. Thatx not homer. I watxch both teams and respect tOSU very ,much(just not their fans ;))
 
I agree but your giving UM DEF props for doing what exactly? Showing they dont have enough depth allowing Ball State back in a game when they rested there starters?

Like I said no interestin arguing anything other then the validity of the line.....

real simple if Ohio State is -2 last year @ Mich then on a neutral field they would probably be -6 and on there home field -10...

if you dont think this applies to all sports lines then without sounding like an arrogant asshole you still have a lesson to learn. I repeatedly have broken down lines over the years here and at covers and dont recall many times I was off....do it in baseball , NFL and so on...there always has to be a starting point. The real talent is learning how to effectively tweak the line up and down to get a tru eline... hell I picked the exact score of the MNF game in Mista's thread......

My call as of now is we see a closing line of 6 and Ohio State squeaks out a 7-10 win..this is a very close number not tight but close where as the line move will create value....

GL all just adding my objective 2 cents....
 
I understand how you think UM can win this and why maybe it should be 3. Until you analyze the spreads it really seems as if the only difference should be home field which in the NFL is -3 NCAA more like 3.5 or -4 for powerhouses...so yeah before we saw a number I thought Ohio State -4..when I dug into the numbers thought Ohio State -8...as I said line move will dictate my play but expecting it to drop. Over the years I learned one thing (okay a few more then one)...Inflated lines always lose and soft lines never win......the fun is trying to find them.....cause most games are on the screws...

I am not saying UM will play poorly or cant win or any thing of that nature....I am only saying when its all over the scoreboard will unfortunately probably say Ohio State 27-17(maybe 20) UM.....thats just how it worksout....
 
Also I dont know why I know half this shit I just do...its second nature alot of times for me. Like how I know the Bowl Green game is going UNDER cause of how the line is adjusted.....its just shit I notice over the years and I can pick out when I need to...read Mista's thread I called that as well today.....
 
Sport, I respect you and think your a great capper but last year's line and this years line is like comparing apples and oranges, UM is a MUCH faster and better team this year. I understand the 3 or 4 for HF and maybe 2 points for other intangibles, so I will gladly take 7....sure UM hasn't played anyone great, but niether has OSU, and you don't go into ND and win by 30 at their place ANY year.
 
ESPN's been making a lot of hay with this team concept on Ohio St's defense this year after losing 9 starters to the NFL. They even had some horseshit where they had Holtz and the other fellow picking which D they would choose...this year's or last. It's not comparable because we've seen last year's lose to VY...and this year's ain't going to play him.

I think both these teams are on a plateau by themselves. I'm not really a fan, so I honestly think I'm unbiased here. Holding Texas to 7 is impressive. Obliterating the Weis offense is equally as impressive to me. And yes, I think tOSU would do it too.

Last year's Michigan team was unimpressive to say the least (by Blue's standards, anyway), and I think that the public/commentator expectation is that they're about to hit the real world this weekend...Either tOSU's line contains Hart and forces Henne to throw it (bad news against that secondary), or the UM D-line just can't contain Troy Smith...that is, what VY did to tOSU last year, Troy will do to Michigan.

remember, I'm talking about fan/casual observer perception here...and these are the fuckers the lines are set for. These lines are not set to try to go up against hunt, jump, and bar.

I love that ESPN consensus poll. Only Michigan and Wyoming?!?! think UM will win that game. This perception, I think, the books would consider in setting lines.

So while I happen to agree with BAR that Michigan is fucking incredible this year (especially compared to the shitlog they laid last year), they've not received respect in the polls til a month or so ago. Even after the crushing of ND, the perception was that Michigan was more the team that the coaches were showing against shit teams compared to supposed good teams like ND.

BAR and HUNT are right....it was a different team on the field that played Vanderbilt and CMU compared to what played ND. The gameplan was totally shocking, and Weis wasn't ready for it. Michigan gave up 21 to ND...but that's only 4 more than what they gave up to CMU the week before. And Michigan went right back to martyball the week after Wisconsin (a great Wisky team is getting overlooked this year, too...suckage). So the perception remains the same. Who has UM beaten? Wisky, ND, MSU (before the perrenial collapse), a tough penn st team CMU (a [the] great MAC team)...lots of quality ball there, but it's taken a begrudgingly long time for perception to even begin catching up with what UM has done and is doing.

Thing is, Tressel is doing the same thing. BOTH teams laid an egg two weeks ago. Both are playing the same moronic shill game, and I think it's hysterical. They both felt the need to beatdown last week's opponent, but other than that, they've been doing just enough to get by. Against weaker opponents, Hart shines, but only so much because of playcalling. Troy, OTOH, is out there making incredible plays and Tressel is thinking SAVE IT FOR THE BLUE, YOU ASSCLOWN...but he can't stop Troy with playcalling like Carr can. On any busted play, Troy can toss a 50 yard bomb to Ginn, and the guy's going to make an incredible play.

I think that's going to be harder against UM. Texas didn't have their secondary against tOSU. That = harder to contain Smith. So the perception of buckeye invincibility remains. Best comparison is Penn St, but that game was tight as a 12yr old girl's ass til the 4th quarter when Morelli fell apart. tOSU still grabbed 148 on the ground at 3.8ypc. And let me remind you Troy lovers. 12 for 22, 1 TD, and 2 picks. If he doesn't improve that dramatically, the buckeyes will lose outright. No Doubt.

However, the defensive picks make the score 28-6 instead of Smith's incredible acrobatics making it 14-6. So the perception of invincibility remains.

I'm honestly surprised it didn't open at 8. Obviously early money has moved it down, but I can almost guarantee you that this line will skyrocket on Friday and saturday.......unless of course Dr Bob fucks it up.

Perception is all over the poisonous ohio nut husks. I guess -8 or -9 would just be assinine looking, I guess. But I would be surprised if this didn't get up to -7.5 by gametime.

I'm holding off on my ML bet because I'm hoping to get 250 or better. If not, I'll jet let my spread play ride. Crushing NW so much harder than UM crushed Indiana can only help.

Don't misunderstand me. I think tOSU is a GREAT team, but there's been too much sunshine blown up their asses all season. UM wants this win really badly while tOSU and backers expect it. I think Michigan surprises tOSU you a bit more, and I think Troy Smith especially is going to be surprised by the UM defense. Had the seasonal situation been reversed, I'd be all over the tOSU dog, too...

7 is probably a good opening number, but I do think Michigan will perform better than that.











or I could be completely wrong.
 
HUNTDOG said:
I couldn't have said it better RB.

Oh, I think you could...and a bit more knowledgably. It's what I've observed of newswhores' comments and reactions, mostly.

We might be overstating Michigan's capability, but there's no way tOSU's capability hasn't been overstated this season. WAY too much love out there for em.

..................................just not on ctg. Here it seems reasonably balanced.

:smiley_acbe:
 
Show me statistics that this defense in 06 is worse than 05....

You're going on names...you know sports BAR, don't be typical ESPN talking head...

You see all those first round picks and say we're worse..

Look it up.
 
Last edited:
I'll do for ya..

Since you just throw out things like Mich is much improved, tOSU is worse...

Here we go:

National Rank: 2005 2006

Rushing Offense: 24 20
Passing Offense: 52 T-37
Total Offense: 32 19
Scoring Offense: 26 8
Rushing Defense: 1 11
Pass Eff Defense: 30 6
Total Defense: 5 8
Scoring Defense: 5 1
Turnivor Margin: 104 3
Pass Defense: 43 23
Pass Eff: 6 5
Sacks: 5 13
Tackles for Loss: 31 10
Sacks Allowed: 21 11





I know it's easy to say this D doesn't have AJ or Donte or Bobby...but look at the numbers...the 05 defense was awesome and this bunch has been better...05 had SIX Int's all year....we have 21 this year....15 more interceptions bro..

Two less sacks all season...more tackles for a loss...

Stop watching ESPN so much..
 
Ohioans and others may debate my proclamation that Bucks are worse..sorry..I use defense as a huge barometer. Anyone that watched Buckeyes last few games last year knows they could play some offense.

Maze tinted glasses anyone??
 
Everyone can talk about UM defense and tOSU offense all we want...

This game will be decided w/ tOSU D on the field vs UM's offense...

Both units are underrated...

Everyone blindly gives the edge in the trenches to UM, as we've seen on talking heads and this board..

But it's so naive..

Our D line is the best we've had in twenty years...Pitcock and Patterson are as good as anyone on UM's line...Give me Pitcock over Branch any day of the week...Woodley is a stud, but Gholston is too...he'd be starting end on your team but came here from Cass Tech..

Besides Long, I think the UM line is not overly impressive...he's very good, but its an avg group besides that...

tOSU has first day guys at every spot but LG....Datish, Barton, Boone, Rehring all will be drafted on the first day...
 
We've been silent long enough BAR...you've been throwing out stuff like the "the trenches, no contest."

Let's get this done Hunt, BAR...cmon boys...

Time to get some shit straight...lol..

I've been quiet long enough and this board is up UM's ass...

I'll stand on the wall...I'm ready.
 
Considering I have no love for either team, I see good value in Michigan +7. This is the most anticipated game of the year, and both defenses are awesome. I would be surprised if either side wins this by 10+.

My question is...will the weather be anything like it was last night with Miami(OH) @ Bowling Green?
 
Aztec4Life said:
Considering I have no love for either team, I see good value in Michigan +7. This is the most anticipated game of the year, and both defenses are awesome. I would be surprised if either side wins this by 10+.

My question is...will the weather be anything like it was last night with Miami(OH) @ Bowling Green?

No sir...field's been tarped all week..

Rain supposed to be out by 5pm today..

High 47, partly cloudy on Sat.
 
Stats dont mean anything to me, and they def are hard to compare unless u take the teams they are playing into account. People said USC's defense was bad but they played last year 8 teams with top 15 offenses. I mean UGA had the #1 d in the country after 4 weeks, but finally a played real offense and got exposed. Its hard to say what d is better this year or last years. I mean Ohio ST hasnt played a real offense in ages. As far as talent goes, i liked last years team.. although i thought the lb core was overrated.
 
As far as the line, I see zero value on either side....I wouldn't bet this except at 3 for tOSU...

As I told Hunt, too many of these recent games have fallen on strange scores..

13-9, 14-9, 25-21, 26-20...not your normal 3 or 7..

But tOSU has won by 5 and 16 the last two at the Shoe..

I don't think either side shows value here.
 
BTW if i was setting the line it would be 3.5 or 4.. these teams are even in my book, neither team has played that tough of schedule or shown much more than the other to be 7 pts better
 
abcs said:
Stats dont mean anything to me, and they def are hard to compare unless u take the teams they are playing into account. People said USC's defense was bad but they played last year 8 teams with top 15 offenses. I mean UGA had the #1 d in the country after 4 weeks, but finally a played real offense and got exposed. Its hard to say what d is better this year or last years. I mean Ohio ST hasnt played a real offense in ages. As far as talent goes, i liked last years team.. although i thought the lb core was overrated.

I've heard this alot this week...but let me pose a question..

Is UM an offensive juggernaut now??

They run for fourteen more yds a game than tOSU on 8 more carries a game...
 
haha good point, but they are more potent with a healthy menningham. Ive never been impressed with michigans style. But that being said they dont want to get into a shootout in this game, unless breaston decides to finally show up ;)
 
HUNTDOG said:
Sport, I respect you and think your a great capper but last year's line and this years line is like comparing apples and oranges, UM is a MUCH faster and better team this year. I understand the 3 or 4 for HF and maybe 2 points for other intangibles, so I will gladly take 7....sure UM hasn't played anyone great, but niether has OSU, and you don't go into ND and win by 30 at their place ANY year.

Hunt - It's not even about that. The respect is mutual. I am not trying to be right or anything of that nature. I tried my best to stay away from this debate knowing we have a heated rivalry. In the end I could very well be wrong. However I am good with numbers and lines that is probably my bets asset as a capper.

To say previous lines have no relevancy is a mistake. Its how you use them. Naturally you can just go off and old line its how you learn to adjust that line that gives it credence.

Been saying for years books rarely adjust lines quickly. Thats where perception comes in. If a bad team or non-public team is playing well you still get value. If the Yankees drop 6 straight you know your still layingheavy wood.

Anyway these teams are just not much different then last year. The Buckeye Defense had a large turnover but as I said earlier a a UNIT they have basically played the same. As for UM I wouldnt say they are improved from last season. I will say they are more consistent , they have had a healthy Hart and have had a better schedule. Last year it seemed liek every week UM was playing a very tough game. This year the Big Ten is down and some of those tough road games became home games.

So the fact we have the same core players QB and RBs means the fact Ohio State was favored in Michigan very relevant. The fact they were -2 or -3 whatever you want to use means basically a 6 pt difference on a neutral field or 10 pt spread @ Ohio State. That is fact. The shaded area is now adjusting with the new season & personnel. Thats where this years lines come in . You can clearly see how thtrough common opponents that Ohio State was shaded 4 or 5 points higher...meaning Ohio State could probably be anywhere from -7.5 to -9 in this game.

Naturally this doesnt seem to hold as much merit since I didnt do this before the line cameout. Truth is for me its just another game so I wasnt into looking ahead. So knowing both teams were undefeated and hyped I would have said guys I believe this line will open @ -7.5 . Could seem high but the number has precedent.

Now if there is so much value in this line...why havent 'pro bettors' really nailed this ? Why cause as I said there really isnt any value in this line persay. Forget football talk just focus on validity of the LINE. When thisline hits 7 you should but 7.5 and thats where the UM value is...as of now. As I said I expect this line to close @ +6 when its all said and done creating value in ohio State....

The line has bounced from 6.5 to 7 cause in reality its fairly accurate at that area...

Right now dont be suprised to see a Ohio State 7 pt win...IMO value is two places on Mich @ +7.5 or the mL...there is no inbewteen.

You gusy see value thinking UM is not 7 pts worse but thats not what this is about.
 
magical3man said:
"...he has used the movie Cinderella as a theme all year"

Do the players sit around and try on glass slippers afterwards too?

I find this funny too...

I guess tOSU can watch the 2002 Fiesta Bowl and relish the opp to bookend careers w/ NC's..
 
LOL...man, there are so many good points from both sides, it is hard to argue either teams strengths and weakness..I will stay on, I just get kinda mad sometimes lol.
 
HUNTDOG said:
LOL...man, there are so many good points from both sides, it is hard to argue either teams strengths and weakness..I will stay on, I just get kinda mad sometimes lol.

Oh I do too...that's why I threw my hat in the ring...tried to stay out of it, because it's impossible to be objective..

I try not to break down the other side as I'm not as knowledgeable to an extent...I know their personnel but not the ins and outs..

More defending my side...

Bring it on boy..

:wacka wacka: :drink:
 
I guess we will just go back and forth in these two threads.

I heard Herbie on the radio the other day and he made a good point saying Debord is more aggressive on the road and will throw more on first downs...If you have watched UM a lot this year like I have they tend to relax at home and aren't as aggressive...on the road they are more aggressive and play with a sense of urgency, take it FWIW.
 
Well, one thing in Jump's defense is the faulty "value" argument. (I won't take this too far, cuz i'm also on UM, but i see this regarding the Yanks all the time. Guess what...there is hardly ever any "value" in taking the Yanks on a given night. At -200+, of course the "value" is with the other team...even if it's TB, KC, or whomever.)
It's inherantly (nearly) impossible to find this kind of "value" on a big fav...especially so when you got two excellent teams, two pretty evenly matched teams, and a huge rivalry w/ plenty of history involved.

Of course the "value" is on UM at +6 or higher. And even in the ML, with these kind of odds. Reason basically is what i jsut said above. For example, this is a FG game imo...which is why i played UM, and the ML for a small amount. IMO, it's jsut gonna be too closely contested.
Now dramatically shift this line to -2.5, then i'd be able to argue there's "value" on Ohio St.

Anyways, it boils down to semantics...not really much more. More often than not, the "value" just inherantly lies w/ the underdog...because whether is the juice or the points, you gotta lay soemthing meaningful to win with the fav.
Also, i kept putting quotes around "value" because i'm only talkign about the way the term gets thrown around so often...not necessarily reality, if that makes sense.

All that said...GO BLUE.
 
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