Could Jordan Zimmermann have made history in Game 2? We’ll never know

Looked at this game on my phone last night and just saw it as a 2-1 final. Didn't know it went 18 innings or that Williams was that stupid.
 
I always thought Yost was a good coach and that goes through the Braves, Brewers and Royals stints

However over the past week I've read a lot of people who are a shit ton smarter about baseball than me say he's terrible. What makes him so terrible?
 
Tough one for your boys Tim. Matt Williams has done a great job all year with these guys, and the decision to yank Zimm was questionable, and then getting thrown out in a close game was just plain stupid. Certainly showed a lack of experience yesterday.
 
I agree it was dumb to take him out but this wouldn't been the best back 2 back pitching performances. Johnny Vander Meer threw back to back no hitters in 1938.

Also my homerism is Dave Steib threw back to back 1 hitters where the hit came with 2 outs and 2 strikes in the 9th inning.
 
Schrute said:
I always thought Yost was a good coach and that goes through the Braves, Brewers and Royals stints

However over the past week I've read a lot of people who are a shit ton smarter about baseball than me say he's terrible. What makes him so terrible?
Click to expand...

He makes very questionable moves often and I'm not talking 20/20. His move in the Oakland one game playoff was all you needed to see. Take your ace out after 88 pitches and bring in a starter with men on base that threw 74 pitches the day before and who didn't see the result of that coming. When was the last time you seen a starter come into a game to take out your ace after 88 pitches in the 6th inning with men on base in what amounts to a 7th game with the lead.
 
Paulie The Vig said:
He makes very questionable moves often and I'm not talking 20/20. His move in the Oakland one game playoff was all you needed to see. Take your ace out after 88 pitches and bring in a starter with men on base that threw 74 pitches the day before and who didn't see the result of that coming. When was the last time you seen a starter come into a game to take out your ace after 88 pitches in the 6th inning with men on base in what amounts to a 7th game with the lead.
Click to expand...

Bringing in Ventura was a bad decision (he threw 73 pitches 2 days before, not the day before), but taking out Shields wasn't the worst call ever. I'm not sure why he didn't bring someone in from the pen, especially as dominant as it's been all year....but pulling Shields wasn't the issue...it was who he brought in.

And every coach makes decisions like that when it comes to pulling pitchers...if they leave the starter in, they get lambasted for doing that. It's a thankless job most times. What no one seems to be bringing up were his decisions to keep running, running, running all night on the backup catcher...the stolen bases are what brought them back into that game and eventually won it for them. He put an awful lot of pressure on Oakland with that. He gets no credit for it somehow.

I'm not saying he's the best manager in the game, but he's surely better than an awful lot of managers...some of them are still coaching in the post-season as well (Mattingly comes to mind for one).
 
Lareux said:
Bringing in Ventura was a bad decision (he threw 73 pitches 2 days before, not the day before), but taking out Shields wasn't the worst call ever. I'm not sure why he didn't bring someone in from the pen, especially as dominant as it's been all year....but pulling Shields wasn't the issue...it was who he brought in.

And every coach makes decisions like that when it comes to pulling pitchers...if they leave the starter in, they get lambasted for doing that. It's a thankless job most times. What no one seems to be bringing up were his decisions to keep running, running, running all night on the backup catcher...the stolen bases are what brought them back into that game and eventually won it for them. He put an awful lot of pressure on Oakland with that. He gets no credit for it somehow.

I'm not saying he's the best manager in the game, but he's surely better than an awful lot of managers...some of them are still coaching in the post-season as well (Mattingly comes to mind for one).
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He started on Sunday if memory serves and the Oakland game was on Tuesday I believe. Could be wrong don't have time to look it up. I agree with your opinion on Mattingly but Yost is brutal. The worst Decision of the Playoffs was the 3rd base coach sending Miggy from 3rd with no out in I think was game 2. The shit that coaches baseball really comes to light in the playoffs.

It wasn't pulling the pitcher (That was bad enough) as much as putting in a starter with men on base you just don't do that. What, he had no relievers in the bullpen.
 
Paulie The Vig said:
He started on Sunday if memory serves and the Oakland game was on Tuesday I believe. Could be wrong don't have time to look it up. I agree with your opinion on Mattingly but Yost is brutal. The worst Decision of the Playoffs was the 3rd base coach sending Miggy from 3rd with no out in I think was game 2. The shit that coaches baseball really comes to light in the playoffs.

It wasn't pulling the pitcher (That was bad enough) as much as putting in a starter with men on base you just don't do that. What, he had no relievers in the bullpen.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he started on Sunday and the WC game was on Tuesday. That's not the day before, that's 2 days before. Doesn't matter anyway, you're right that he shouldn't have been brought it, it should have been a reliever.
 
Lareux said:
Bringing in Ventura was a bad decision (he threw 73 pitches 2 days before, not the day before), but taking out Shields wasn't the worst call ever. I'm not sure why he didn't bring someone in from the pen, especially as dominant as it's been all year....but pulling Shields wasn't the issue...it was who he brought in.

And every coach makes decisions like that when it comes to pulling pitchers...if they leave the starter in, they get lambasted for doing that. It's a thankless job most times. What no one seems to be bringing up were his decisions to keep running, running, running all night on the backup catcher...the stolen bases are what brought them back into that game and eventually won it for them. He put an awful lot of pressure on Oakland with that. He gets no credit for it somehow.

I'm not saying he's the best manager in the game, but he's surely better than an awful lot of managers...some of them are still coaching in the post-season as well (Mattingly comes to mind for one).
Click to expand...

All of these reasons to not bring in Ventura are spot on - Here's my take - Moss is a lefty - that calls for a lefty from the pen - if Moss hits that 3 run bomb off a lefty, then you just tip your hat to him.
 
I do not have a strong opinion on taking Zimmermann out or not. Zimmermann started to be all over the place against the previous hitter (including a rocket foul) and Posey had good swings on Zimmermann all night long I lean toward leaving him in, but Williams reasoning for the move was sound, imo.

As far as getting tossed, it's a non issue to me. He's still managing the team, he's just doing it from out of sight. Clearly he was trying to create a spark.

Overall, I've been impressed by the job Williams has done and it appears he has the respect of his guys. But, if they are going to be a consistent playoff team, he's going to be judged by the playoffs.
 
Dollaz said:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-washington-nationals-vs-vic-carapazza/
Click to expand...

Pretty good analysis here, and it seems Zimmerman was getting squeezed in the 9th.

It is pretty clear though that Posey is much better at framing pitches than Ramos. The thing is, even with Ramos doing a poor job of framing the pitches, Carapazza was still calling the pitch(es) Zimmerman didn't get in the 9th strikes earlier in the game. Williams was right to get tossed in that situation in the 10th, he had no choice but to stick up for his guys and try to spark them.
 
I think it's a combination of things including pitch framing. Ramos is lined up closer to the middle of the plate and the pitches are tailing away vs. Posey lineup up slightly off the plate and the pitcher hitting the mitt.

Not making excuses, but I think you could see the frustration from the team when all of a sudden pitches that were strikes for 8 innings are all of a sudden balls.
 
That analyisis of Carapazza is damning. No surprise to learn it's his first p.s. appearance. Massive fuck up on his part.
 
Dollaz said:
I think it's a combination of things including pitch framing. Ramos is lined up closer to the middle of the plate and the pitches are tailing away vs. Posey lineup up slightly off the plate and the pitcher hitting the mitt.

Not making excuses, but I think you could see the frustration from the team when all of a sudden pitches that were strikes for 8 innings are all of a sudden balls.
Click to expand...

Right, all goes into framing the pitch.

Yep, the 9th inning calls were opposite of what he was expecting...and rightfully so.
 
chelseafan said:
Williams is a clone of Ausmus and Clint Hurdle - they have a plan - this pitcher goes in the 7th, this one in the 8th, then the closer.

There is never a gut feel or the ability to change on the fly - its strictly formulaic. My dog could manage this way.

I am a Pirates fan and Hurdle drives me crazy for his marriage to his "plan"
Click to expand...
Chelsea your comments address the real issue to me...and Williams said as much in his post season presser. He had a plan and stuck to it, and there was no consideration for leaving a pitcher who had been extremely accurate throwing strikes the entire game, only had thrown a 100 pitches and had handled the heart of the SF order very well. He signaled to the pen without even talking with Jordan or Ramos. I just don't think you can manage that way.

BetCrimes1984 said:
That analyisis of Carapazza is damning. No surprise to learn it's his first p.s. appearance. Massive fuck up on his part.
Click to expand...
Carapazza is awful and was inconsistent all day with this strike zone. How in the world does he rate or deserve to be a post season umpire?
 
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