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BlackJack & Casino Games / Tips and Strategy / Systems

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
So I’m back in Wisconsin for the golf season, but since it got pushed back till Thursday I’ve been killing time at the local casino.

I hate slots and I’m the worlds biggest mark for a poker game. Never interested me.

I do however enjoy blackjack. It’s a small casino in Nekoosa, WI, nothing fancy, $5 min tables, lots of old folks and Indians. But everyone is friendly enough.

It’s a 2 deck shoe and I’ve walked out a winner each time I’ve gone. $50 here and $75 there.

I know most of the basic BJ strategies, but I’m also not risk adverse and enjoy going against the grain every now and then (sometimes to the tables chagrin).

Anyone have any good money management ideas or strategies based on the cards shown on the table?

Also, I signed up for a rewards card, they run it each time I change money for chips. I only bring in $100-$200 at a time. Will I ever get a comped room or anything like that?

I’ve never been to Vegas, but I’ve been to Foxwoods, Mohegan, and AC. People seem to always get rooms and meals for free at those places.
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
If you want BJ strategy tips, you have to post all the rules.
Bingo. For starters, never, ever, never, ever, never, ever, never, ever play on a table where they pay you 6-5 on blackjack instead of 3-2. These fucking casinos just love to dick players over with everything nowadays. When I was in Vegas about 3 years ago, only Casino on the strip that offer 3-2 for blackjacks was TI, and they have the best rules for any players on the Strip for 21.

What you're looking for is the ability to stick your foot up the casinos ass when they're down, multiple splits on aces, double downs on any 2 cards, standing on all soft 17s...and that goes just on top of the basic strategy you're supposed to play. Know how to use surrender and ask the dealer if they have it if it isn't listed on the table rules.

Don't get caught up in the guy at 3rd base fucked the table up. The cards are the cards, and the "what if this guy did this" game hurts you as much as it helps you.

Betting patterns are the most important thing in blackjack though beyond the basic strategy.

2 deck shoe isn't normal right?
A 2-deck shoe isn't normal for most places nowadays unless they are using an auto-shuffler that continually is shuffling the cards after every hand.

In blackjack, you're looking to play in a game with as few decks as possible. You're "trying" to give yourself the best chance to know what's left in the deck / side count of aces / etc.

Auto-shufflers are the devil. The more hands and faster you can play, the more the casino keeps. And most casinos nowadays only allow even the 8-deck shoe games to pitch I don't know....60% to 2/3 of the cards from the 8 decks.

It is a fucking BRUTAL game. My brother dealt at Foxwoods a decade ago and has some crazy stories...still calls it to this day "the game of the devil"
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
BJ pays 3-2
Dealer must hit on soft 17
Insurance pays 2-1
You can double down on anything
You can split cars up to 3 times
Play a max of 2 hands at a time
Automatic shuffler but it’s not always shuffling they take a break after the shoe and throw the cards back in the shuffler
2 decks in a shoe

What am I missing?
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
I got $200 in chips today. Was up a bit and took a big swing. Walked out giving $60 to the casino.
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
BJ pays 3-2 - GOOD RULE FOR PLAYER
Dealer must hit on soft 17- BAD RULE FOR PLAYER
Insurance pays 2-1 - NEVER TAKE INSURANCE (I ONLY DO WHEN I HAVE BLACKJACK TO GUARANTEE EVEN MONEY) SO IT MEANS NOTHING
You can double down on anything - GOOD RULE FOR PLAYER
You can split cars up to 3 times - EH...NOT A HUGELY BAD RULE, BUT NOT HUGE DIFFERENTIALLY
Play a max of 2 hands at a time - DO THEY MAKE YOU DOUBLE THE MIN BET IN ORDER TO DO SO? I'VE BEEN IN CASINOS THEY MAKE THE PLAYER PLAY DOUBLE THE MIN ON PLAYING MULTIPLE HANDS - THE MORE HANDS THE WORSE FOR THE PLAYER
Automatic shuffler but it’s not always shuffling they take a break after the shoe and throw the cards back in the shuffler - THIS IS PURE EVIL. IT IS AWFUL...FORGET CARD COUNTING OR SIDE COUNTS OF ACES OR ANYTHING...THIS IS TERRIBLE FOR THE PLAYER
2 decks in a shoe - THE AUTO-SHUFFLER NEGATES THE PLAYER'S ADVANTAGE HAVING ONLY 2 DECKS.

What am I missing?[/QUOTE]

My advice is to go an have fun....the game is just too hard to long term profit unless you have amazing rules, play perfect basic strategy and card count. And that's assuming you've got a solid betting pattern. It is hard AF to be a long-term winner in blackjack.
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
BJ pays 3-2 - GOOD RULE FOR PLAYER
Dealer must hit on soft 17- BAD RULE FOR PLAYER
Insurance pays 2-1 - NEVER TAKE INSURANCE (I ONLY DO WHEN I HAVE BLACKJACK TO GUARANTEE EVEN MONEY) SO IT MEANS NOTHING
You can double down on anything - GOOD RULE FOR PLAYER
You can split cars up to 3 times - EH...NOT A HUGELY BAD RULE, BUT NOT HUGE DIFFERENTIALLY
Play a max of 2 hands at a time - DO THEY MAKE YOU DOUBLE THE MIN BET IN ORDER TO DO SO? I'VE BEEN IN CASINOS THEY MAKE THE PLAYER PLAY DOUBLE THE MIN ON PLAYING MULTIPLE HANDS - THE MORE HANDS THE WORSE FOR THE PLAYER
Automatic shuffler but it’s not always shuffling they take a break after the shoe and throw the cards back in the shuffler - THIS IS PURE EVIL. IT IS AWFUL...FORGET CARD COUNTING OR SIDE COUNTS OF ACES OR ANYTHING...THIS IS TERRIBLE FOR THE PLAYER
2 decks in a shoe - THE AUTO-SHUFFLER NEGATES THE PLAYER'S ADVANTAGE HAVING ONLY 2 DECKS.

What am I missing?
My advice is to go an have fun....the game is just too hard to long term profit unless you have amazing rules, play perfect basic strategy and card count. And that's assuming you've got a solid betting pattern. It is hard AF to be a long-term winner in blackjack.[/QUOTE]

So when you want to play 2 hands you have to wager 2x the minimum.

The dealer today was hitting everything and getting tons of face cards and if it was almost always an 8-Face card... well the dealer that was responsible for my swing, but like you said the cards are the cards... I should’ve walked but I just got there!
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
Rating system usually based on avg bet length of time playing and the games you are playing. Do you have a casino players card you give the dealer when you sit down?
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
Rating system usually based on avg bet length of time playing and the games you are playing. Do you have a casino players card you give the dealer when you sit down?
Yea I give him the card. And then the pit boss runs it. Idk if they put in the amount I get for chips or if they just run it.
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
Don't they typically list bet size and how long a person plays?
It’s done usually per game based on an
Average bet size. How a player gets graded and comped that is. Also the level of table has something to do with it. Meaning if you’re playing quarter min tables they’ll probably eye you closer as they figure you’ll lose more in the long run.

But a game like Blackjack they love having peeps come to lose to 6-card soft 21s.

Also game dependent. Poker players hardly get comps because the casino isn’t making a lot of rake off them. Slot players are treated well because by nature slots are programmed to keep a percentage return. My folks only play slots and they get a shitload of comps. And they play low-level slots (pennies to quarters)...it’s all about how much the casino can make off of you. Number of visits, length of casino time, games played...they all go into the “formula” or computer program for how a player gets graded for comp rewards
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
Bacc is a better game imo
Much better house edge for the player. Not as exciting but it’s about winning money.

Personally a fan of Pai Gow poker, but blackjack is just a painful game if you’re out there trying to make a buck. If you’re going to have a few drinks and relax and don’t take it too seriously, it’s a million times better.

But I have undoubtedly seen some of the most miserable human beings in my life at either a blackjack table or a poker table.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
Pass line did make me constant money once in AC. No idea how it worked.
It actually is blackjack though. That would be dependent on the rules (as Scarf mentioned), like not hitting on soft 17, BJ pays 3-2, etc. It looks like simply having a 6-5 payout on blackjack quadruples the casino’s edge.
 
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jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
Pass line did make me constant money once in AC. No idea how it worked.
Pass line is you win if the roller rolls 7 or 11 on first roll, you lose if he rolls 2, 3, or 12. If he doesn’t roll any of those, then his point is whatever he rolled. If he hits the point before he rolls 7, you win. If he rolls 7 before the point, you lose.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
Games with the best odds
  • Blackjack: 0.13% Blackjack has the best odds of winning in every casino. ...
  • Craps: 0.60% ...
  • Roulette: 2.7% ...
  • Wheel Of Fortune: 11.2% ...
  • Slots: 1 in 49,836,032
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
Pass line is you win if the roller rolls 7 or 11 on first roll, you lose if he rolls 2, 3, or 12. If he doesn’t roll any of those, then his point is whatever he rolled. If he hits the point before he rolls 7, you win. If he rolls 7 before the point, you lose.
The casino in my area doesn’t even have a craps table unfortunately.
Good to know, thank you.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
Games with the best odds
  • Blackjack: 0.13% Blackjack has the best odds of winning in every casino. ...
  • Craps: 0.60% ...
  • Roulette: 2.7% ...
  • Wheel Of Fortune: 11.2% ...
  • Slots: 1 in 49,836,032
Baccarat should be on this list, not sure why it isn’t. Looks like it would be 3rd.

On a regular baccarat table, house odds range from 1.01 to 1.24 percent on the BANKER and PLAYER bets.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
The casino in my area doesn’t even have a craps table unfortunately.
Good to know, thank you.
That’s odd. Craps is usually a staple in any casino. With all of the other options outside of the pass line, they make a killing on craps.

Betting the 6 and the 9 is also a good strategy in craps that many people employ. You bet 6 and 9 and win every time a 6 or 9 is rolled until someone busts. You can rack up chips pretty quickly. Pretty sure they both pay 6:5
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
That’s odd. Craps is usually a staple in any casino. With all of the other options outside of the pass line, they make a killing on craps.

Betting the 6 and the 9 is also a good strategy in craps that many people employ. You bet 6 and 9 and win every time a 6 or 9 is rolled until someone busts. You can rack up chips pretty quickly. Pretty sure they both pay 6:5
It’s a small town casino. Tables are $5 min...
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
That’s odd. Craps is usually a staple in any casino. With all of the other options outside of the pass line, they make a killing on craps.

Betting the 6 and the 9 is also a good strategy in craps that many people employ. You bet 6 and 9 and win every time a 6 or 9 is rolled until someone busts. You can rack up chips pretty quickly. Pretty sure they both pay 6:5
Think you mean 6 and 8, Larry. Those are the 6:5 bets on the inside numbers. 5 and 9 pay 3:2. Lots of guys (using a $5 “unit” for example) will play inside 22 ($5 each on 5 and 9 and $6 each on 6 and 8) as a strategy for a certain number of hits per shooter.

There are legit a million different craps systems. If you have any discipline at all it’s a fun game. But people just leave too damn much money on the table pressing their bets hoping a 7 doesn’t come and wipe out a 45-minute hot roll from a shooter.
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
Think you mean 6 and 8, Larry. Those are the 6:5 bets on the inside numbers. 5 and 9 pay 3:2. Lots of guys (using a $5 “unit” for example) will play inside 22 ($5 each on 5 and 9 and $6 each on 6 and 8) as a strategy for a certain number of hits per shooter.

There are legit a million different craps systems. If you have any discipline at all it’s a fun game. But people just leave too damn much money on the table pressing their bets hoping a 7 doesn’t come and wipe out a 45-minute hot roll from a shooter.
@scarf31 you watching this OT in Dallas?
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
Think you mean 6 and 8, Larry. Those are the 6:5 bets on the inside numbers. 5 and 9 pay 3:2. Lots of guys (using a $5 “unit” for example) will play inside 22 ($5 each on 5 and 9 and $6 each on 6 and 8) as a strategy for a certain number of hits per shooter.

There are legit a million different craps systems. If you have any discipline at all it’s a fun game. But people just leave too damn much money on the table pressing their bets hoping a 7 doesn’t come and wipe out a 45-minute hot roll from a shooter.
Yes, I meant 6 and 8. My bad. No matter how many times this discussion comes up, I ALWAYS say 6 and 9. It’s like a mind fuck with me. And I’m a math guy, so it’s embarrassing as it’s obvious there is a higher likelihood an 8 is rolled as opposed to a 9. Ugh.
 

D-Woww

CTG Beagle Guru
its because you always got 69 on your mind!

so based on the responses here, nobody should ever play any of these games, correct? aside from just having fun.
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
Dan, if you're in a casino with the sole goal of making money and grinding out a profit, try to stay away from games with the biggest house edges.

The big wheel? Just run....the vig is like 11 to 22% based on the casino.

Other tips for the players' advantage are smaller things like...

In roulette, try to find a single zero wheel vs. a double zero wheel, cuts the vig in half.

Blackjack you want to play with as few of decks as possible and no shufflers...the faster they can deal the more hands they deal the more their edge is.

Never play at a blackjack table offering 6/5 on blackjack if there are tables offering 3/2 which they should

Learn blackjack basic strategy , you can buy one of those cards in most casino gift shops.

Craps is a great game if you have some discipline. There's a million systems out there...90% of people don't realize there are bets you can make in craps that aren't on the layout....and you can take true odds with no vig at all.

Pai Gow is a personal fave and a low vig game.

Baccarat as the banker is like a 1.1% vig which is low....as the player it's like 1.75%....NEVER bet ties is baccarat, the vig is 10%.

LEARN HOW TO BET....utilize betting patterns that make sense....there are systems out there.

i could go on and on and on...but I'm a bigtime math guy and am looking in a casino to cut the house edge to as little as possible...

If you're there to kick back and have fun, then enjoy yourself and don't worry about any of these things....but on a forum like this, it never hurts to share some of the math behind some of these bets and what is / is not good for the player.
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
@Teapot9 This is a system I use to this day anytime I play in a casino in a game like blackjack. Let's say for purposes of your discussion in the first post, you've got $200 you're taking to play blackjack. $5 minimum table....

Make your first bet larger than your second bet and then if you keep winning always continually progress your bets as you're in casinos looking for streaks. Here's an example.

1st Bet - $7 Win
2nd Bet - $5 Lose

Your "series" is over and you profited $2. But you were 1-1 and only had a 50% winning percentage.

If you lose the 1st bet at $7, continue to start the next "series" at $7 until you win and then drop to $5. The key to the betting pattern is to lock up a profit if you alternated wins and losses every hand...obviously that doesn't happen, but little things like this I've used for 25 years to keep me a float even if I'm just taking a few hundred bucks to the casino, sitting back, drinking a few beers and playing 21.

If you play craps, same $200 you're taking / $5 table for discussion's sake. Bypass the come out roll, let the shooter establish a point and place $6 each on the 6 and 8 ($12 total) or $22 inside on the 5,6,8,9. Look for one hit on a number per shooter and then take down your bets until the roll ends. Grind it out that way until you reach a $50 profit. Then you can increase the number of hits you're looking for to 2 hits per shooter until you get to $100 (or $150 or whatever goal you set) and then maybe look for 3 hits per shooter OR (what i prefer) increase the $6 to $12 and $22 to $44 on whatever system you're playing and try to keep the same low number of hits, but because of your profitability grinding out a profit, increase your bet size.

I am 43 years old, I've been a numbers guy my whole life. When I went to college in Utah (following my college gf there), I was close enough to the Nevada casinos and LV that I used to go all the time. Always loved statistics and probability...i add 6 digit number in my head before a calculator can....my wife thinks i'm a fucking weirdo, she may be right, but I digress..I just get numbers.

I had a job at the university tennis center all through college and I had to work a 2-hour window from 6:30 to 8:30 3 times a week for years.....I would go to the local bookstores and order books on systems for how all of these games are played from beginner to intermediate to advanced strategy. Was fascinated then and am still fascinated today by the math and how and why the casinos offer the bets they do and what is good / sharp, vs. what is bad and getting jobbed.

Sorry for the long post, gang, but when you're practicing card counting at 7 a.m. for months on end, you figure this is something in your DNA, so you better either learn this shit and get good or accept you'll always be a loser.
 

Teapot9

The Picasso of Caddies
I’d like to enroll at Scarf Card Counting U... I never put this much thought into my gambling when sitting at the tables... I’m going to print this out
 

scarf31

CTG Vice Partner
Staff member
scarf absolutely crushed it in this thread. great stuff.
Glad to discuss some of this stuff with you guys interested. I'm a believer in paying it forward. I've said this before...when I found this place as a lost, clueless, hard-boozin' degen, this place saved my ass when I was a young, dumb kid. No Joke.

My buddy, P-Unit, roughly a decade ago made about 5-10 posts over a few month period about financial consulting and how he was in the field....gave some 401k advice at the time....it legit was better than the advice from the guys my company was paying....simple, smart strategies....I reworked my 401k a decade ago based off of CTG ADVICE. No fucking joke. (And that guy is no dummy, FYI...his advice was spot on)

My point is that sharing information is what this place should be about....helping everyone learn to think outside the box and challenge yourself in ways to make you a smarter, better, gambler, sports bettor (or 401 k investor)...are what I'm hoping can help everybody where we all improve everyone's process for this crazy hobby we share.
 

mogo

CTG Moderator
Staff member
Why does wheel of fortune have better odds than other slots?
:popcorn:

I ask because there is always a line waiting to get the first empty seat on them.

Plus over easter my uncle was telling me how he hit for a couple thousand on it a few days before.
 

blackjack34

Well-Known Member
And how do comps work?
All ho-chunk casinos are absolutely terrible giving comps. I play $25 minumum bj, and $1 video poker, and occasionally $5 slots. Ive been going to the Wisconsin dells ho-chunk for 24 years, using the players card and NEVER gotten a free room. I get $5 free slot play, reduced room cost ($60), and $5 for gas each month....if you want decent comps go to potowatomi in Milwaukee, or treasure island near Red Wing, MN.
Maybe if you asked a pit boss after your playing session if you could get a free buffet, or a free room you may have some luck if you play long enough.
 
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B.A.R.

CTG Partner
Staff member
:popcorn:

I ask because there is always a line waiting to get the first empty seat on them.

Plus over easter my uncle was telling me how he hit for a couple thousand on it a few days before.
My wife and fil kill those machines.
 

blackjack34

Well-Known Member
All ho-chunk casinos are absolutely terrible giving comps. I play $25 minumum bj, and $1 video poker, and occasionally $5 slots. Ive been going to the Wisconsin dells ho-chunk for 24 years, using the players card and NEVER gotten a free room. I get $5 free slot play, reduced room cost ($60), and $5 for gas each month....if you want decent comps go to potowatomi in Milwaukee, or treasure island near Red Wing, MN.
Treasure island casino in Minnesota is 100 miles from Lacrosse, WI and potowatomi casino is about 180 miles from Lacrosse, WI
 

P-Unit

Beacon of Calmness
Glad to discuss some of this stuff with you guys interested. I'm a believer in paying it forward. I've said this before...when I found this place as a lost, clueless, hard-boozin' degen, this place saved my ass when I was a young, dumb kid. No Joke.

My buddy, P-Unit, roughly a decade ago made about 5-10 posts over a few month period about financial consulting and how he was in the field....gave some 401k advice at the time....it legit was better than the advice from the guys my company was paying....simple, smart strategies....I reworked my 401k a decade ago based off of CTG ADVICE. No fucking joke. (And that guy is no dummy, FYI...his advice was spot on)

My point is that sharing information is what this place should be about....helping everyone learn to think outside the box and challenge yourself in ways to make you a smarter, better, gambler, sports bettor (or 401 k investor)...are what I'm hoping can help everybody where we all improve everyone's process for this crazy hobby we share.
props bro

:shake:
 

blackjack34

Well-Known Member
Treasure island casino in Minnesota is 100 miles from Lacrosse, WI and potowatomi casino is about 180 miles from Lacrosse, WI
For that same level of play at treasure island I get $20 free slot play, 2 free rooms per week, and a free buffet per week.......at potowatomi I get $50 free slot play, free buffet, and a free room per week
 

blackjack34

Well-Known Member
They have a $15 minimum 2 deck table at ho-chunk in Black River falls, WI that I play a lot. Get there at 10 am if you go. Tables open then, and you can often play for about 30-60 minutes by yourself b4 the table fills up. They also have $5 minimum 6 deck table. Same rules as nekossa. If you want to learn different betting and playing techniques, learn card counting, then learn the "illustrious 18" deviations of basic strategy. It's not difficult to count cards if you can tune out the distractions around you. And card counting gives you a good idea when to bump your bet, take insurance and vary your strategy decisions. Check out this website
https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/
And also take a listen to the "gambling with an edge" podcast here or on you tube
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gambling-with-an-edge/category/podcast/
....if a person loves casino action you will enjoy.
 

blackjack34

Well-Known Member
Black River falls 2 deck table is a "pitch" game where the player holds the cards. You can still count cards at," pitch games" too, if you eventually learn how to.
 

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