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Astros and Red Sox cheating thread...

VirginiaCavs

Man Crush on Kyle Guy
We had the steroid era. Does this become the sign-stealing era?

Seriously how dumb desperate or supercilious does one have to be to try to get away with this under so much technology and so many watchful eyes?
 

gsro

Give me the NHL, or give me death
Isn’t surprising considering Alex Cora was there in Houston when it happened right?
 

VirginiaCavs

Man Crush on Kyle Guy
I think I agree with the initial twitter comments. This penalty seems to be much to soft. The point of a penalty should be to make the doer feel like what he got out of doing the crime wasn‘t worth the consequences — thats how penalties should deter prospective doers) and it seems obvious that a WS title was worth all of this.
 

braves

CTG Moderator
Staff member
I think I agree with the initial twitter comments. This penalty seems to be much to soft. The point of a penalty should be to make the doer feel like what he got out of doing the crime wasn‘t worth the consequences — thats how penalties should deter prospective doers) and it seems obvious that a WS title was worth all of this.
I thinkthe penalty is just right and I applaud what MLB has done here

what would you like to have seen done?

taking away titles like NCAA does is dumb
 

VirginiaCavs

Man Crush on Kyle Guy
I thinkthe penalty is just right and I applaud what MLB has done here

what would you like to have seen done?

taking away titles like NCAA does is dumb
At the risk of seeming dumb, what‘s wrong with taking away a title? They literally cheated to win it.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
At the risk of seeming dumb, what‘s wrong with taking away a title? They literally cheated to win it.
What’s the point of doing it? They don’t give the title to the runner up, so it’s nothing more than symbolic. And nobody looks back and acts as if the stripped team didn’t actually win it. It is literally pointless.
 

VirginiaCavs

Man Crush on Kyle Guy
What’s the point of doing it? They don’t give the title to the runner up, so it’s nothing more than symbolic. And nobody looks back and acts as if the stripped team didn’t actually win it. It is literally pointless.
Deterrence.
And I disagree. I think the Astros‘ title will carry an asterisk the way Barry Bonds‘ HR record does.
 

VirginiaCavs

Man Crush on Kyle Guy
What’s the deterrence though? We will symbolically strip your title even though everyone will still remember you as the champions and any bonuses have already been paid out for winning it all?
I think the Astros‘ title will carry an asterisk the way Barry Bonds‘ HR record does.

If not taking away a title then more...a lot more... than what they‘ve levied now.

What do you think about the equivalent of stripping bowl eligibility? Astros can‘t make the playoffs for two years.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
I think the Astros‘ title will carry an asterisk the way Barry Bonds‘ HR record does.

If not taking away a title then more...a lot more... than what they‘ve levied now.

What do you think about the equivalent of stripping bowl eligibility? Astros can‘t make the playoffs for two years.
There’s no asterisk. Some people feel that way I guess, but those people would feel that way regardless of punishment. Do you feel that USC didn’t really win a title? How about any other team that’s been “stripped.”

There’s no schematic way for a post season ban in a major pro sport that would make sense and satisfy everyone. I just don’t see how it’s possible.
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
I think the Astros‘ title will carry an asterisk the way Barry Bonds‘ HR record does.

If not taking away a title then more...a lot more... than what they‘ve levied now.

What do you think about the equivalent of stripping bowl eligibility? Astros can‘t make the playoffs for two years.
Again though, since it’s been asked...what more would you like to have seen? The reality is very few people actually care about this. If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying...and that applies more in baseball than any other sport.
 

Da Hoss

Well-Known Member
Take away draft picksfor 5 drafts, make then unable to sign fa's. Only claim others rule 5s and waivers players.
 

VirginiaCavs

Man Crush on Kyle Guy
I suspect Hinch got fired as a sort of fall boy for self-protective purposes. Like the Pats‘ equipment guy in Deflategate
 

braves

CTG Moderator
Staff member
The deterrence is what happen to this GM and Hinch getting fired . They may never have those positions inMLb again , at the very least it will be multiple years before they get a chance
 

guaranteeed

CTG Moderator
Staff member
Luhnow released a bananalands statement blaming everyone but himself

He wont be hired again

Hinch is probly radioactive for 1.5 to 2 years, maybe gets hired mid season 2021, but for sure by 2022

I think Cora gets way more than 1 year, he was basically the head man, and then he took it to boston? Lifetime wouldnt shock me
 

guaranteeed

CTG Moderator
Staff member
Again though, since it’s been asked...what more would you like to have seen? The reality is very few people actually care about this. If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying...and that applies more in baseball than any other sport.
I think some people wanted player suspensions, but I mean, it was like their whole lineup... you want a triple a squad for the first month next season? Plus that punishes the fans, not the team

I would have done 5 years of 1sts, the 2 years isnt huge because the mlb draft is the biggest toss up in all drafts
 

cogenman

Raider Nation for Life
The commish should drop the hammer so that this doesn't happen again. And how dumb are some of these managers? Do they really think they can go on forever with nobody reporting stuff. A pissed off ex player is what I would be worried about. Not sure why Mike Fiers decided to come out with it but I'm glad he did.
 

NickelAndDimer

Well-Known Member
In a statement released Tuesday, the Red Sox said given MLB's findings in the investigation into the Astros' sign-stealing "we collectively decided that it would not be possible for Alex to effectively lead the club going forward."

 

Pyppurs

Well-Known Member
I think the Astros‘ title will carry an asterisk the way Barry Bonds‘ HR record does.

If not taking away a title then more...a lot more... than what they‘ve levied now.

What do you think about the equivalent of stripping bowl eligibility? Astros can‘t make the playoffs for two years.

Exactly, Baseball is the only sport that continues to purvey this sanctity of their records...it's why Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds/Palmeiro/Canseco/Clemens and everyone else caught in the steroid scandals haven't made it to the HoF. Heck even Rose is still banned for life for gambling on his team.

Houston got off too easy, they were able to simply clean house after the firings. Nobody on the current team was penalized. Essentially MLB told everyone hungry for a championship it's ok to cheat cause you will not personally get punished.

If this is the type of punishment Houston gets, every fan should be angry that their team they doesn't attempt to cheat in similar ways. $5M, 4 picks , and management suspension for 1 year for a ring???? And this is after MLB said they would come heavy handed for those who were caught cheating after the Boston/apple watch scandal ....
 

Pyppurs

Well-Known Member
Kershaw

2.96 ERA in the 2017 postseason in his 4 starts before WSG5, 27K to 5 BB. Then all of a sudden 7 ER and just 2 K to 3 BB in Houston...

G1 in LA: 7 IP, 1 ER
G5 in HOU: 4.2 IP, 6 ER
G7 in LA, 4 IP, 0 ER

and Darvish was great in the postseason until Houston where he didn't strikeout a single batter in the two starts against Houston. Cost him a lot of $ in FA and was blamed a ton at the time.

Dodgers respond to anonymous Astros player's claim that Yu Darvish tipped his pitches
Yu Darvish weighs in on Astros cheating allegations

"After Game 7, there were news about how I was tipping my pitches. After the World Series ended, I personally asked a player from the Astros about it. He said that I was fumbling my ball before I threw my fastball. After Game 3, the Dodgers suspected that I was tipping my pitches, and I reviewed some footage with some people. I reviewed my mechanics from that footage, but we all couldn’t find any noticeable signs that I was giving something away. During Game 7, I was really aware and concerned about this, so I made extra sure on the mound that I wasn’t giving anything away.

"After Game 7, I’ve been personally trying to get to the bottom of this problem. This year, from a source from the Astros that I won’t disclose, I was told that I was tipping my pitches during Game 3 and 7 by fumbling my ball before my windup. Since I saw my Game 7 footage numerous times, I was convinced that I wasn’t doing that, and there was something in the back of my mind that didn’t mesh well with what that player was saying, and what was shown on the footage."
 

braves

CTG Moderator
Staff member
This isn’t the criminal justice system, precedent doesn’t really apply. when or if the next team gets caught doing this MLB doesn’t have to punish the same they can and my guess will punish even more severely

I don’t understand how taking away titles is a deterrent unless you believe the NCAA doing that has been effective) it hasn’t )

my understanding is punishing players gets very tricky given the CBA .

I could see an argument that the team should have been fined more . 5 million does seem small, but I think baseball had to be tactical in this . They needed the investigation to move somewhat quickly , not drag into the season, so I’m not sure the question has been answered as to how much of an impact this had in terms of wins

everyone just assumes but not for the sign stealing they would not have won the World Series . I dont see the evidence to support that
 

guaranteeed

CTG Moderator
Staff member
This isn’t the criminal justice system, precedent doesn’t really apply. when or if the next team gets caught doing this MLB doesn’t have to punish the same they can and my guess will punish even more severely

I don’t understand how taking away titles is a deterrent unless you believe the NCAA doing that has been effective) it hasn’t )

my understanding is punishing players gets very tricky given the CBA .

I could see an argument that the team should have been fined more . 5 million does seem small, but I think baseball had to be tactical in this . They needed the investigation to move somewhat quickly , not drag into the season, so I’m not sure the question has been answered as to how much of an impact this had in terms of wins

everyone just assumes but not for the sign stealing they would not have won the World Series . I dont see the evidence to support that
I think the 5 million was the most allowable

Agreed on taking away titles, just stupid. The reason people want titles are in the moment and the memories, no one cares if it gets taken away. I remember serie A took away one of Juve's when they relegated them like 10 years ago? And Juve just pretended it didnt happen, no one cared

Also saw the part where all the players who participated in the investigation got deals for no punishment, which is probably the only way this could have been done.

The complaints by the Dodgers and the Yankees I understand, but agreed it's such a toss up anyway theres no way to say who would have won. Playoff baseball is such a small sample size, you cant prove anything worked, all it takes is like 5 at bats to create an outlier, and within those 5 at bats, the difference between an out and say like 3 runs is a matter of inches.

If they had made the playoffs by like 1 or 2 games over someone, I'd be more willing to listen to that, as it's such a larger sample size and Iirc I saw a tweet where their walk to strike out percentage at home was extraordinarily amazing and much better than on the road. So if say Oakland finished a game back and didnt make playoffs, that's one thing. But any playoff series or any one game.... csnt prove anything
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
I think the 5 million was the most allowable

Agreed on taking away titles, just stupid. The reason people want titles are in the moment and the memories, no one cares if it gets taken away. I remember serie A took away one of Juve's when they relegated them like 10 years ago? And Juve just pretended it didnt happen, no one cared

Also saw the part where all the players who participated in the investigation got deals for no punishment, which is probably the only way this could have been done.

The complaints by the Dodgers and the Yankees I understand, but agreed it's such a toss up anyway theres no way to say who would have won. Playoff baseball is such a small sample size, you cant prove anything worked, all it takes is like 5 at bats to create an outlier, and within those 5 at bats, the difference between an out and say like 3 runs is a matter of inches.

If they had made the playoffs by like 1 or 2 games over someone, I'd be more willing to listen to that, as it's such a larger sample size and Iirc I saw a tweet where their walk to strike out percentage at home was extraordinarily amazing and much better than on the road. So if say Oakland finished a game back and didnt make playoffs, that's one thing. But any playoff series or any one game.... csnt prove anything
Not to mention, you still need to hit the ball and perform at the dish. Sign stealing has always gone on and will always continue to go on, but without the use of technology. That is all perfectly fine to do, it’s just part of the game.

Also, there are lots of guys out there who don’t even want to know which pitch is coming, even if it’s done “legally.” There are probably just as many guys who don’t want to know as those who do, maybe even more who don’t want to know.
 

B.A.R.

CTG Partner
Staff member
Fwiw, those tweets(hers) dissapeared QUICK and the account is now private. I looked back and she's definitely been acting like family of him for awhile.
 

braves

CTG Moderator
Staff member
Yeah ,I’d be interested to know how much MLB uncovered here . Did baseball know about this buzzer shit?

starting to think they may have rushed this investigation
 

braves

CTG Moderator
Staff member
Bill Simmons said that the Red Soxs basically own the Globe so he thinks there will be a hit piece on Cora soon

Going be interesting to see what comes out of the Red Sox /Cora era
 

B.A.R.

CTG Partner
Staff member
Yeah ,I’d be interested to know how much MLB uncovered here . Did baseball know about this buzzer shit?

starting to think they may have rushed this investigation
They either rushed or are hiding something. One guess is they found what they needed to punish without really digging in.
 

braves

CTG Moderator
Staff member
They either rushed or are hiding something. One guess is they found what they needed to punish without really digging in.
It seems rushed

I see some people speculating that the Dodgers may be involved and that’s why no one in the organization has really commented on this

I’m starting to think this is steroids all over again , and sign stealing is a widespread problem
 

jedi ninja

Sir Lawrence
Fwiw, those tweets(hers) dissapeared QUICK and the account is now private. I looked back and she's definitely been acting like family of him for awhile.
The family has come out and said she’s not related at all. The word is that it’s either a current or former player controlling the account.
 
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